J32A2 and J35A4 bottom end questions...
 

Tried getting some answers over in the TL forum but didnt get many responses so...i came here. Anyhow, can anyone tell me if both the J32A2 (03 TL-S) and J35A4 (05-08 RL) have forged crank, rods and pistons? Ive read the many threads around here that teeter-totter on what is what but I am currently using a J32A2 in my 03 TL-S with a 150hp wet shot and currently building a 3.5 conversion using the J32A2 block with J35A4 rotating assembly. My reasoning here is i would like to know their (crank, rods and pistons) power handling capabilities. Not so much in the J32 as for the J35 bottom end. If nobody really knows/confirms that these components are indeed forged, what can I do in terms of tests to find out? Also, would it be safe to run the J35 bottom end up to about 400-500hp ranges? Ive heard the bizarre claim that the forging was done for "weight purposes and not strength". Ive had a 40 year CNC machine veteran confirm by simply looking at the J32 that "they are all forged without a doubt". Any responses would be appreciated as I have already took the J32 block and RL crank to my engine buder and he is awaiting the rest of the rotating assembly to begin. Thanks!

Theyre "forged", but not forged for strength purposes.

The 40 year CNC machine vet may need an eye exam, you can clearly see the casting marks on the internals.

The highest we've seen so far on a J32 block (A3 to be exact) with 3.7 crank, rods, and 3.5 pistons (3.6l) is low to mid 400s on boost. Im not sure how many miles are on it.

Is there any way to define "forged" rather then them being forged? Because from my knowledge and research, any form of forging a piece of metal means creating the shape by a means of great force (which can also be done in different temps depending on the metal) therefore giving no casting marks. Speaking of these casting marks, i have yet to see any and i have a A32A2 bottom end readily accessible if there's anyone who can tell me where i could find these casting marks? Im in no way trying to be disrespectful civicdrivr i just want some answers.

Also, are there any strength differences between the 3.2 A2 and A3 blocks? It would be to my assumption that the A2 block would be more capable of handling extra power because it carries slightly more horsepower. I know it's a very small difference (2hp) but just doesn't sound like Acura to make the A3 block stronger when it's less powerful. Also, not sure if cylinder sidewalls have the reinforcements as the A2? Should I just stick with the A2 block for the build?

Correction on my first post: it's the J35A3 in which they put into the 05-08 RL's, not the the A4.

the difference between the engine power is SAE ratings, the A2 block creates less power. previously the A3 would be rated at 270hp compared to 260hp with the A2

150 shot ???
really.
And you are thinking you need more power going threw the auto trans ?
Are you plan on running the 150 shot after the build as well ?
I assume you have no video's of the 150 shot in action.

I was paranoid enough doing a 75 shot in my 01 CL Type S but 150 shot? How long have you been doing that??

You should be able to see the casting markings if you look at the bottom side of the pistons.

The A2 block has more webbing on the outside for strength purposes. The block is not what allows the A3 motor to make more power, that comes from the heads and the tuning. The A3 motor uses a completely different ECU that uses factory wideband O2s, allowing it to hit AFR targets more closely then our ECUs.

^^ thats very informative shit u know civic. u never cease to amaze me. u just shit out wisdom. and we thank you

:blush:

So instead of a measly 2hp, it's a measly 10hp? But still, is the A2 a better block for durability? How about using the 07-08 TL-S block...any advantage here as opposed to the A2? And I know the blocks are different but is it worth ALL that work for the block design?


Yes, really. It's experimental. I figure if I have the money, have a few spare engines, the shop and tools, the nitrous....why not. Tune in next week for the 200 shot.

More or less it's to see what gives first in the motor. So far I have 12 bottles through with no issues. I also change both oil/trans fluid every 1000 miles using Mobil 1 synthetic extended performance and DW1 ATF. I put this power train through alot. I also take many precautions to make it last as long as possible.

Sorry, no videos but if you're requesting...


As mentioned, 12 bottles total. Currently working on number 13. FTR, that's using 10lb bottles and a wet kit. I have the the fuel jets at a healthy 10.5-10.8:1 for now. Some may say its too rich but the extra fuel is there to aid in cooling the piston/cylinder. Also, I hit at 1100psi instead of the suggested 1000psi because I feel the more liquid nitrous boiling into a vapor will help with that hard hitting effect you typically get from running spray. I never purge and that's to allow they vapor to slowly increase power until the liquid hits the cylinder. I feel that it's effective.

I will look again at the pistons tomorrow at work. But does this mean only the pistons are cast? What about the crank/rods? Are you stating these facts solely off other peoples responses or a reputable source? That's what I don't want is repeated words. I myself have actually taken screenshots from reputable sources confirming that the RL bottom end is in fact forged. Another says only crank/rods. I think I might buy the aftermarket pistons just to be safe and be done with it.

Oh and civicdrivr, I'm aware that the block doesn't make the power. ;-)

From the pictures I've seen, pistons are cast and the rods are forged. Unless it's a performance engine, all engines come with cast pistons. All engines come with forged rods. I have never seen a j-series crank but I've never seen a japanese engine with a cast crank.

You can easily tell by looking at the bottom of the piston, the side of the rods and the parting line on the crank. Post some close up pictures and I'll show you what to look for.

A forged piston usually doesn't have any marking, number, logos or overhanging lips on the side. The forging process doesn't allow it. Forged rods and crank have a wide parting line vs a thin line for cast.Attachment 51015These are Richard Parker's pics.
See the lip under the wrist pin hole and the numbers next the wrist pin, this is a cast piston. If there were close up pictures, you would be able to see the casting lines. The rods have a line going down the side of the rod is about 1/4" wide. It's forged. You should be able to see a similar line on your crank.

07-08 block wont bolt up to your transmission.

Im stating it because Ive held the parts in my hands. Ive had the J32A2 crank, rods and pistons and the J35A3 pistons along with the J37A1 crank and rods. These parts are now in my engine. As Roo said, the pistons are not forged.

The Honda blocks (Accord, Pilot, Odyssey) tend to use cast parts, unless all they have in the factory that day are forged.

Even the OP of your quote states "unless its a performance engine, pistons will be cast". Dont know about everyone else but I personally consider an engine that produces over 40hp per cylinder a "performance engine". Lol...

Here's my last thought...and once again, this is only meant for information purposes only and is not intended to question everybodys knowledge. Btw, thanks so far for everyones input here in the thread. Ive learned more about this bottom end from this thread than from weeks of research on the net. Anyhow, last thought: assuming through pratical knowledge that the J32A2 is using cast pistons at 260hp, why would Acura engineer the RL's engine with the same (or mechanically similar aside from just an increase in the CR) cast pistons yet boasting an additional 40+ horsepower? Im fully aware of the member on here who did side by side comparisons along with dozens of others who either agree by the same method or just by simply parroting the info but can anyone present a picture like the one above that shows the RL's casting marks? Im practically on the verge of ordering an RL piston from Acura (at a mere $62!) to physically examine them just to see these castings and be 100% on the topic.

Aside from my asking, I think their might be several people here on AZ that would not only appreciate the actuality of this but also benefit in a sense of alternatively using RL pistons instead of having to purchase a custom/expensive set of pistons.

Oh and again to civicdrivr, i know the 07-08 blocks have a different bell housing from the A2. If you look closely, I actually mentioned a detectable hint at the end of my post.

0-2

FYI civic, dont take my questions here for ignorance on engines, transmission, powertrain management, etc... Ive been doing the performance thing since i was knee high to a grasshopper. When other kids were discovering they finally had A pubic hair, i was discovering what cam lift and duration could do to a 327 small jounal small block. Also, as a prefession, I am the primary diagnosing/repairing technician of a 30 year automotive electrical shop in Dallas, Tx and can run circles around most boys who consider themselves "technicians".....but not to brag. Lol....

Again, thanks for the input everyone.

Not once did I think you didnt know about engines.

I will try to find the thread that shows pictures of the pistons. With that said, most people that build strokers use the RL pistons. There are numerous boosted cars running the RL pistons. This forum is only part of the picture.

Also, this topic has been beat to death on V 6 p.

^^^
the only "topic" of the thread is to determine how much power a stock RL bottom end is capable of handling.

Thats it.

Id appreciate the pictures because i could never find any with the posters image hosting account still being active. Thanks civic...

***and for the record, in a matter of a few weeks when the engine has been completed i will be testing the factory A2 engine with large hits of nitrous just to find out its capabilities.

Can't wait for that.
Are you going to be doing your big shots on a dyno or the street.

I've been having thoughts of taking my engine to the next level.

You know, i will consider doing some dyno runs. I have a performance shop thats close by my shop and the do "dyno days" on a pretty regular basis. Last weekend it was like 3 pulls for $50. With that, i could re-jet the sytem each pull in 50hp increments and start at 100 or 150 shot.

As for taking it to the next level, ive always been the guy brave (or maybe just dumb enough) to go further than most. Nothing wrong with pushing the limits as long as you take preventitive measures while doing so. I myself run these motors very rich when dosing heavy on spray, use a wideband to monitor, use both an auxillary pump/cell to supply the fuel solenoid and even use a richer/cooler/oxygenated fuel to decrease detonation. I would mention the fuel type but I see most Acura/Honda owners frown upon its use...

Just pulled all 6 plugs on the A2 and (after 12 bottles) and cylinders are pitted but very lightly. Plugs (2 steps cooler) are burning PERFECTLY all while dosing at 10.5AFR under spray. Things look good and sound good while under load. No ping, no signs of heavy detonation, we'll see how long she goes for. As mentioned, here shortly ill be moving it up to 185-200shot and adjust AFR to a richer concoction. When you run numbers that high on spray, richening the mixture up is about all I can do without being able to retard this RETARD! Hahaha...

Correction, PISTONS are lightly pitted not the cylinders.

damn i want more power too... and i wanna make it a 3.5... would i just need to change the crank to an mdx to do this or what??? rods and crank??

Technically speaking, yes. Crank and rods will make it a 3.5L. HOWEVER, there's so many things that will need to be done and should be done. Need as in new bearings (cam, crank, etc..), oil pump, timing belt, gaskets and so on. And should be done as in ARP fasteners, better rings, engine balancing and so on. Doing the need and should be done things makes the difference innthe fine line of the engine being not only performing in a Pleasurable manner but also lasting an appreciated length of time. In other words, no, its NOT just crank and rods. :-)

yea shyt i kinda figured but i had my fingers crossed.... not anymore

Some pictures taken this morning of the J32A2 piston and rod. As previously mentioned, casting marks are clearly evident on underside of piston top. Rods show the signature wide gap of a forged peice. It is said: pistons in the J32A2 are CAST. Just to settle the argument on the RL's pistons, I will be obtaining a used one to take pictures from as well. One thing is for sure, if the RL piston is cast as well, I will be using aftermarket pistons for the 3.5 conversion build. As for the RL crank and rods, I will be talking to my builder today about shot-peening/coatings and any other special treatments to increase their strenth.

http://i1263.photobucket.com/albums/...e/IMG_0007.jpg

http://i1263.photobucket.com/albums/...e/IMG_0010.jpg

Alright so I received an update from my builder today as well as some news from Wiseco...

Engine builder says 2 out of the 6 cylinders were lightly scratched (something I had pointed out to him when dropping the block off) and that in order to remove them all cylinders would have to be honed approximately 20 over standard. That will put me at 89.5mm to be metrically correct. Gave him the green light and so now after hearing that, I now know what pistons to buy.

After speaking with him, I called Wiseco up and talked with one of the tech support guys. Good news is they have the available sizes ONLY for the Acura 3.5L: standard bore, .020 over and .080 over (which would make it out of spec). Lucky me. Due to them being custom pistons, they will have no coating (cryo), supplied with no rings and will take 3 freakin' weeks to manufacture. I've decided to use both oem crank and rods as the builder says they will suffice due to being factory forged and not running a consistent power adder (like a blower or turbo) and will do fine with intermittent nitrous use. He will take precautions and shot peen the rods and do a lower end balance for less stress. Because I'm buying new rods there shouldn't be any need for manga fluxing neither rods or crank.

Thanks for reading, will keep you guys posted.

What size shot are you currently running now? Also what size nitrous and fuel jet are you using? That's what is really comes down to assuming your fuel pressure is stock..

So you are doing all this how are you going to tune it? From what I hear there are really no tuning options available at the moment.

And from what I know, you are correct. Even though timing cannot be modified on these ecm's, there are a few other things you do to minimize detonation. Running cooler plugs, richening AFR in fuel solenoid while spraying WOT, running highest octane pump gas, adding a supplemental fuel system that utilizes a faster burning/cooler temp. combustion such as alky or methanol.

I'm in NO WAY saying this effective in removing detonation and allows high horsepower nitrous use on our engines. The word I would like to emphasize here is MINIMIZE. Doing these thing will help and aid in minimizing detonation.

When I use nitrous, I closely monitor my wideband AFR meter. Also, not that Acura's knock sensor was the most sensitive in detecting detonation or the ECM's timing adjustment capabilities were that significant but I see very little (sometimes none on cooler days) detonation being indicated by viewing the data stream under spray @ WOT. Not to say that's it not eating all the metal in my cylinders, pistons, valves, etc away while it's happening. Hahaha...

What afr do you try and shoot for under wot when spraying?

I think 11.5-12.5:1 is a good start depending what the plugs look like, being a little on the rich side is okay. I've had good luck with that.

I go to down to about 10.5 just to safe. Running meth/alky allows going this low as you naturally run these fuels richer to begin with. If running premium octane only with spray then 11.5 is about as low as you want to go. Even at 10.5, my plugs read very well and I feel I sacrifice just enough performance to get the reliability I need. But who knows, it's all really just one big guessing game to begin with no matter how much knowledge you hold. So many factors when doing this it's impossible to say with truth that your engine is safe.

Personally after doing all this i would get a full standalone and tune it to be safe.

Optimally? Yes.

Financially? Hell no.

Lol, not for a motor that won't be in my car much longer (moral of the thread) and especially if it's exhibiting no signs or symptoms of detonation. More or less, you could call this a "don't-give-a-shit-motor" and an experiment to test the limits of these little 3.2's (I'm a big block guy) as well as helping others by listings factors, knowledge, experience and of course the results they all combine to make.

Summed up: guinea pig!

Very informative lets see some vids

You want a video!? Ever tried driving a front wheel drive car that already 275NA and then adding a 150 shot on top of that while shooting a video at the same time? That would be some funny shit. Torque steer would quicly claim my life. But hey...what's a car with nitrous if you can't show it all off, huh?

Off course a little bit: my big bro has this theory on engines and spray that as long as detonation is kept to a minimum and AFR is kept anywhere but lean, you can push 50-70% more power from most stock motors (especially if they're performance oriented) and be safe. We've built and ran a lot of motors and sprayed all of them and have yet to cause any damage to a bottom end by sticking to those golden rules. It's the sheer violence that detonation causes to engine parts and the tremendous amounts of heat by a lean mixture that kills your motor. Best of all?--these things are fairly easy to control. Even in these TL's that you cannot electronically manipulate engine characteristics and management. Just my .02.....

emanage has worked for years.
fic works too. if i am not mistaken both can retard timing but not advance it.

That's what I've read as well. And IMO, doesn't justify the cost when "gaining" so little when using it with nitrous. I've also heard with the standalone EMS's, you can change and modify parameters but the ECM will re-adapt back to factory settings over time after detecting these changes. I'm not sure how true that is because ive read it adjusts timing by intercepting both IAT/ECT sensor signals to trick the ECM into thinking it a different temperature and I'm just baffled (if it really does) on how it revert to prior settings when consistently seeing altered temperatures on forementioned sensors....riddle me that! What else could indicate otherwise....HO2S's? Would have to be another sensor that is temperature sensitive that would conflict with incoming IAT/ECT readings. But then, wouldn't this cause engine drivability issues? Or a MIL?

Anywho, when they can introduce an EMS (piggy/standalone) that offers a hypersensitive knock sensor, complete ignition timing modifications, and management based of AFR under WOT with spray and without, I'm not not interested. Most of these standalone's you see today are purpose driven by positive displacement engines and/or N/A applications that require adjustments to injector pulse and ignition advances...hell even an injector that's only turned on under heavy boost scenarios. The last feature would maybe be the ONLY feature WAF to a nitrous user.

Shit it's 11:30 and I'm blabbing on about useless EMS crap. Goodnight! :-)

So you have gone as far as to "build" the motor but are un willing to complete the build with a proper tune??? :screwy:

No sir. I'm currently having an engine built while experimenting with a stock 3.2. However, the same issue presents itself upon the completion of the motor AND to add, I'll be running an even bigger shot to it.

Maybe some of those around with the experience could recommend an EMS (or even a piggyback) that will allow both the use of an A/T and ignition adjustments?

I'm also in the process of researching an idea of using the factory a/t ECM simultaneously with an eManage so the 2g and 3g TL automatic transmissions can be used with a custom fuel management system. I figure if Richies Module can allow doing the opposite, it would be possible. Im not saying it is possible but another guy from another location of the company I work with who's the lead electrical technician there is helping me throw all this together. If anyone with in depth engine management knowledge has an feedback or ideas please share them. We know so far that the factory ECM won't require but 4 to 5 primary signals from the engine to operate the transmission (eManage will run the motor) and these signals will have to be shared (where allowed due to sensitivity) or electronically splitting the signals so that none of the milli-volts/amps are lost from the signal....as mentioned, this would only be requires for highly sensitive signals such as CKS, CMP, etc... Other signals such as TPS SHOULDNT be affected by any sharing amongst the modules.

Still just an idea and obviously still in development. Again, those who have any constructive words to share please don't hesitate. And if you see an immediate hurdles, please advise. Thanks.

Contact Rodney at J&R. Theyre doing a "standalone" (I put that in quotes because its really a piggy-back) for the 3G that should work on the 2Gs.

It would be much easier if you were a 6MT.

Who's J&R?

In agreement with the 6MT swap but I'd like to know if it would work and I'm sure many others wouldn't mind being able to use a power adder without any heavy mechanical modifications and an EMS. If it worked the would involve purchasing a standalone and a conversion-splitter harness.

What stages are they in with the 3G standalone?