scalbert

I did some tests yesterday to check the efficiency and effectiveness of the intercooler. The first test was to again check the boost level before and after. This was just as I found before. I started at 3k revs in 3rd, floored it and looked at the boost reading at 3k, 5k and 7k revs. They were practically identical before and after the IC, I could not see any difference in the reading.

3k - 4.5 PSI
5k - 6 PSI
7k - 5.5 PSI

I did this several times with the same results every time.

Next I got my father-in-law to help and did temperature readings. I used some Type T thermocouples I had in our demo inventory and used it with our Fluke 701 calibrator so accuracy is not a problem. But response time was. It was very slow to respond which skewed the results but did give a good indication of the effectiveness. These were epoxy tipped TCs; the meter does filter the signal some what plus the inherent nature of TC and their slow response never allowed me to get a true peak reading. I may use a portable DAQ some time in the future with opened ended TCs to get better values but it may not be needed.

The results were interesting in two ways. First, the temperature rise out of the SC was not as high as I expected. This is partially due to the TC limitation in response and maybe be 100% of it. According to the below plot on this blower it should have been increased by about 130 F.



The second interesting aspect was that the efficiency was not as great as I originally calculated. This is also probably skewed due to the blower outlet peak not being the actually reading. Regardless though, it still worked well. Below are the averaged results using 4th gear pulls from 3k to red line.

67 F - Outside air temperature
172 F - Blower outlet peak
93 F - Post Intercooler peak
84 F - Intercooler coolant peak

This gives a temperature rise of only 105 F. The intercooler removed 79 F which is 75% efficiency rating (I had estimated 85% before hand). So the total temperature rise was 26 F which is still very good. Using these numbers there should be about 14% denser air available.

With more boost the efficiency may go up some as will the power. The temperature rise may be up to about 150 F which on a 90 degree day would put it up to about 240 F. Even using the 75% efficiency that would still only be a rise to 128 F.

Overall I am very pleased with the results and am looking forward to more boost and power.

Mike

you da man!

care to estimate how much more boost you can run safely? when's the next dyno session?

scalbert

Intercooled boost on 93 octane is limited to about 8.0 - 9.0 PSI due to our compression. This is what I will be going to; the new pulley should bring it up to just over 8 PSI. I'll head to the dyno once I get the new pulley in, installed and the system tuned. So expect about two to three weeks.

BoostedM3

very nice work & findings man.

if you need a portable daq (i.e. PCMCIA), let me know. i have a 500kS/s NIDAQ set im trying to sell...kinda hard to find a buyer for this stuff.

scalbert

Thanks, we sell DAQ equipment so it is not hard to come by. Have you tried any of the NI forums to try and sell the card?

BoostedM3

lol.

i'll try those forums.

Zapata

what's the peak boost the S/C unit will be able to handle?

scalbert

The SC could generate as much boost as you want. But there is a speed limitation which is about 16k RPM. That, combined with the size or the unit and our 3.2L displacement puts the limit at about 8.5 PSI for our application.

That is pretty convienent considering that it is about the same amount of intercooled boost you can pratically run with 93 octane.

CLS2001_97124

Very nice Steve! 75% efficiency is pretty darn good if you ask me. I think the CT aftercooler only lowers the temp between 50-75(at best) at a lost of 0.5 psi. So your design is pretty badasss being the first prototype.

TopGum

How does 91 octane change your calculations?

scalbert

It drops about 0.5 - 1.0 PSI for the maximum. Or, with the e-Manage, just have it pull another degree or two.

ChucksTL_RENAMED

Time for the track Steve, let us know how you do....and see if you can line up next to a C5! He might be suprised!

allmotor_2000

Good work Steve

Can't wait to see the dyno with the new pulley!! I think 400whp

juice

Will your fluke accept an RTD input? If so, the response timw may be a little quicker. Not that the accuracy will be that much better, but an RTD is a little more accurate than a TC.

types1967

hi steve great reading im still here on the board and now i think im going to have to buy an intercooler from you since i now feel the need for more power also if smitty gets one you know i have to have it lol.i havent been active here in a while spending alot of time with the girlfriend thinking about the m word and having a family one day.well keep me posted steve and dont be a stranger give me a call once in a while i miss those am calls talking shop

EricL

Impressive!

I wonder if a little water injection + alchy would allow the 91-octane folks to push up close to the same boost levels with your intercooler?


If you get traction, I bet you can touch high 12s on the right track on a cold day!

scalbert

It will, but only two wire 100 or 1000Ohm Pt units. However, it may not be nessesary as I just wanted a general idea. I may go back and test it out further at which point I will use better equipment.

scalbert

That would be nice but I'll be a bit more conservative and hope for just 370 WHP.

scalbert

Nice to hear from you, it has been some time. Just go ahead and get married, you ain't getting younger.

We'll see what the IC does but I am sure you will be wanting one if the results are good.

scalbert

Yea, I'm sure with some H2O injection 91 octane could be used and run 8 PSI.

We'll have to see about 12's, maybe with someone else driving.

ModAddict

DON'T DO IT!!!!!

















unless you go for the right away

ModAddict

Steve, did you look at your a/f numbers?

allmotor_2000

^bump^

scalbert

I wish...

I've been so tied up with other things I haven't finished the installation. I do plan on finishing it tonight though. I have the sensor cable pulled which did require a cut and resoldering. So the rest shouldn't take more than about fifteen minutes which I will do after putting the girls to bed.

I'll post tomorrow with the results.

pimpscls

post some vids of your car boning out, i need to show some of my freinds what these 6 speeds are capable of, b.c my car is too slow to show them whats up

Smitty

what the hell is "boning out"........ this kid just posted in My thread and he has me super confused.

Hobo

yes, he has some "wack" words from the "streetz".

scalbert

You'll have to wait for some new ones as I am too tied up right now. But here is one from about a year ago after installing the blower:

CL-S6SC First Drive with the Blower

optiq

is that what you call boning out

scalbert

Not really, as my interpretation of that phrase would be painful (and probably illegal in some states) to do to a car.

NSXNEXT

iTrader: (2)

God damn I love that whine.

ferizzo

haha...he said boning!

scalbert

I finally got the WBO2 running and went for a quick spin last night (Brad has already heard this part). I only went down the road and back so only pulled in 2nd. The A/F went form about 11.2 to about 12.2 at redline.

This morning I was able to try it on the highway and in 3rd (no room for 4th tests). It again started off in the low 11's and then climbed to 12.5 at redline. It may have gone higher but I also have to watch the road.

I'm going to hook up the laptop over the weekend and do some logging of A/F versus RPM. I'll then throw some fuel in at the top end to get it back in the high 11's. The next step will be to bleed off some of the boost in the regulator, and retune the e-Manage for a flat A/F curve. This will certainly prepare me for more boost with is less than two weeks away.

Even with going to the mid 12:1's I was surprised that there was no audible knock. When I was on the dyno prior to the IC and I touched 12's I would definitely hear knock. So the IC is doing a good job of helping out here and I am running no retard on the timing.

Ray Khan

Great work man.....how does the emanage work with the knock sensors? Does it try to run on the limit of knocking? I know with my bosch motronic I actually want to see a little timing correction. That way I know I'm running as much timing as the car can halde based on the conditions. Having a timing correction of 0 all the time means the car has more to give, but the software isn't agressive enough.

Have you been looking at EGT's in relation to knock? I wonder how your EGT's have changed with this IC? Obviously they must be significantly lower if you aren't knocking at similar A/F no?

SiGGy

same thing I was thinking.

scalbert

It doesn't interface with the knock sensor at all. I'm just going by the previous testing when audible knock was present and when it wasn't. I am beginning to think my car's ECU/KS is deaf when it comes to hearing knock. On the dyno, knock was present but power was up and there was no indication of timing being pulled.

Heck, the pre-'00 AV6 didn't even have a knock detection system. Maybe they put it in just to make the Feds happy.

I can just retard timing with the e-Manage based on RPM and boost. Right now it is set at 0 which is running the ECU determined timing.

EGTs are next. My WBO2 accepts Type K TCs so that is an easy one. But no, A/F numbers are slightly leaner than before. How much I can't say for sure. Since this is not just a simple IC stuck in the flow path, it is a new upper intake manifold, things have changed. I no longer have the dual stage manifold which when working or not did change the A/F ratio noticeably. So I can't fully relate pre-IC numbers with the post IC numbers.

Regardless, it is still in a decent range and there is no additional fuel being added with the e-Manage. It does look as though I can go up in boost and tune accordingly.

ModAddict

I was told by two different tuners in Detroit, that the Honda knock sensors were deaf. If there was a way to at least listen to it, or see it, electronically, it could really help to find the edge. Before the TL, I had an 02 LS1, and the knock retard was an OBDII perameter, and was easy to tune to the point of KR, then back off a notch, similar to what Ray Kahn said. On the other hand, it's very possible that with your IC, you will be able to run as much boost, as the speed of the blower will allow, without any timing retard from the eman. Then you'd be back to trying to advance the timing, and if you do reach that point, I bet you'll be happy enough, without tryng to push the timing.

scalbert

I'm glad I am not alone in that thought. It seems as if it is there for compliance only. But now it seems as though the newer versions have corrected this and gone beyond considering the seemingly adaptive advance the new AV6 (and I assume the new TL).

I agree with the GM statement, my GTP provided much better information. AutoTap was my friend by being able to see Knock Counts and Knock Retard. That allowed for more knowledgeable tuning. IMO, of the manufacturers that design their own engine controls, GM is at the top.

I think by keeping the A/F ration in the 11.5:1 range, maybe a couple tenths leaner, I should be able to run 8 PSI without much if any retard. But I may still pull a little timing just to be same for those days when I get stuck in traffic on a hot summer day. Then, when at the track drop in some 100 octane and remove the retard.

allmotor_2000

yeah!