Zapata

Tim,
reliability and cross application, yes i agree with you. I guess the motivation of my original comments was based on pure performance and not reliability/cross-application so in terms of those characteristics I can't argue with you Perhaps i should've been more clear in my statement. However, I didn't think one of our own board members would dime me out and unleash Clubgp warriors on me hehe

I believe the 3.8L does have more resources as it has more CI. VTEC/VVTI/double vanos are just electronic controls which optimize what the head and the block offer. However, I understand what your position and could just as easily argue you position as your points have validity. Dunno, i guess it's just a difference in opinion

You mentioned old school big blocks. I much prefered a worked small block as opposed to a big block with a 4 barrel holleycarb etc.,



Thoredcls,
Thanks for the back up but i think the discussion that GTP4UNME and are having is pretty decent. We are staying away from my car rules etc., type of arguement becuase both cars are good in their own right. We have some of the ClubGP members who are talking shit but no need to get into a pissing match

Blabla

First- sorry for some of the GP owners post on here-

The L-67 (3.8 S/C) was built to power the "fullsized" buicks of today- nice smooth low end power- not for hp, also a very restrictive air intake (gotta be quiet for gramps!)
Much like the BOP 455's of old it had great low end torque- 240 hp /280 ftlbs stock. Word is GM limited the torque because of the trannys rating of .........280 ft lbs!

But somehow GM wanted a moter that will run 200,000+ miles, so we got some pretty good stuff inside- nice light short pistons, crossdriled 4 bolt mains- good (?) rods & crank IIRC some tear down pic on on www.thrasher-ep.com

The s/c is a huge plus because GM picked low boost (~7-8 pig stock) with a large pulley (3.8") My 97 dynoed at 230 whp & 348 ft lbs (@ 2400 rpm!!!) with just a 3.5" pulley, a Slp CAI, and a Borla cat back. That was 80,000 miles ago- the car is my wifes daily driver & has 13X,000 miles now. I have replced the SLP (junk imho) and added a repro PCM and a WAG of around 240 wheel hp (most stock dyno at ~195) 30 mpg is common for me on highway trips, I getting ~ 28 for the last 11 months.

Traction and temp's are the key to good GTP e/t's- with the huge lowend launching is hard.

Stock top end is 128 mph due the the speed limiiter, but I have see 140 from stock cars with a repro PCM. 60-0 is 130 stock, and IIRC .7x stock G's (stock tire suck)

One of the first "big guys" in Club GP traded for a CL- I hope he is here working on stuff for you guys.

The aftermarket for Gp's is VERY limited!!!!! Most parts are made by owners who saw a market and started a Co.

www.cy-ya-racing.net/ is a good sight

Sorry about the user name- mine was taken.

roo97ss

wow what a thread

I think the big think we're missing on the 3.8 to 3.2 debate is cost. GM is keeping down its cost building a simplistic 3.8 that gets the job done, in mass quanities. Look at the applications for the motor, it's across the entire GM line in mult cars of each division, and not to mention in a good part of the holden fleet in australia. To pump up the GTP, and GS, and to get reasonable performance out of the bigger park ave and bonneville, sure they could throw heads and the like on the cars, but an SC is an easy add-on. esp a non intercooled job like this. for the number of SC cars they sell it doesn't make sense for them to redesign completely different and more powerful engine.

They have the 4.6 northstar dohc, which is a nice, techy motor and the 4.2 i6 doch in the new trailblazer. the 3.5 dohc found in some intrigues and the aurora is techy and smooth, much smoother than the 3.8 (my youngest brother has a 97 firebird 3.8 and my parents a 99 intrigue) but no more powerful, no more fuel effecient and i'm sure much more costly, hence hasn't been mainstreamed yet.

GM has looked to improving simple technology to save weight, keep displacement up and keep power levels reasonable.

In the segments, until nissan decided they needed HP to sell cars (it's working) and honda decided to follow suit, dollar for dollar, class for class the GM cars were very strong runners, often at the head of the pack in performance with their antiquated pushrod v6 motors.

That's the general's game.

To state my opinion the acura 3.2 is a better motor than the 3.8, but it's admission charge is quite a bit more than that of the 3.8. In the real world money matters, and i think that's a big deal for the GTP crowd. They can buy the car cheaper than an acura, and then if your into modding the car for street racing, it's a hell of a lot cheaper than the acura to do so, even buying new, GM discounts their cars pretty hard so for the sticker price of a regal
GS or GTP you can probably buy tires (maybe wheels and tires), exhaust, cold air and a pulley and real deal be into the 13s. It's not as 'nice' a car, but it's a hell of a lot cheaper, and can double as a family sedan, when you can't afford a separate tire scorcher to sit in the garage, my case.

We have 2 gm's and 1 acura, 3 different missions.
1. olds achieva 3.1, wifes work car, makes home visits all day around town, parking on the street, many dings, etc. reliable, ok power, decen mpg, cheap car to drive and maintain

2. camaro ss, ls1, my weekend car, strip car, 'should' run with just about everything i encounter

3. cls auto, daily, highway runner, out with friends, etc. smooth, deceptively quick, boulevard cruiser that will surprise quite a few cars...but by no means #2

ThoroDredCLS

Nice to see a knowledgeable GTP owner. Your info is welcomed and that has updated me on some things on the GTP. Welcome to the boards.

GTP4UNME

Agreed.

ThoroDredCLS

GTP4UNME

WTF are u talkin about?

Tim

ThoroDredCLS

Oh i forgot, you are a newbie to our forums. That means I agree with you. We don't have smilie that says "agreed" or "I'm with you" so most users use the No bashing intended. Thats why i put a behind it.

Sort of like "DAMN NICE CAR"

jsrbrown

I had a GTP... Fun car... quality sucked and I longed to shift my own gears that's why I'm getting a CL-S... but you guys are smoking some good shit if you think that a CLS with what amounts to thousands of dollars in mods once the SC comes out can hang with a guy that has (1) a greater torque advantage and (2) very little money to realize quick HP. My GTP dyno'd with just a simple pulley swap and exhaust at 230 hp and 340 flbs of torque... My 60 ft times were right around 1.9-2.0 on drag radials.... And I ran 14.0 all day with an occasional 13.8 if the air was cool.

GTP4UNME

Ohhhh, got it.

Tim

Scrib

Damn noobs.


j/k :P

scalbert

And who would that be?? And who would Blabla be??

What a lengthy post, took me a while to get through it.

Ah, I do miss the low end of the blown 3800. The one thing I can say about the 3800, and I have had the top of it off a few times, is that it is not as refined as the CL-S engine. BUT, it gets the job done and done reliably. It fulfills the intentions in giving great low end in this size package and can take significant abuse.

Now, once spinning up the CL-S engine fabulous. The sounds and feel is hard to beat from any manufacturer. And it can certainly have a broad torque curve albeit not nearly as high as the L67, but very flat particularly with headers:



Now, have things changed in the GP world or are expectations very optimistic, this is really a question. When I had my GTP I ran a 14.78 stock. This was a little better than the norm but what I would consider a high 14 run. But now people claim that all stock GTPs run mid 14's seems a bit stretched unless stock GTP have gotten stronger over the years??

IMO, the GTP has greater aftermarket support now because of the number of years it has been out. Contrary to many thoughts the CL has very little support, most import support go to the 4-Bangers, Civic/RSX. I remember when people were just breaking into the 13's in the GTP and times slowly crept down. It did not happen overnight, it took about 1.5 years before we could swap pulleys from the introduction of the '97 GTP. And that allowed for 13 second runs. Before then we were stuck with just intakes and exhaust to get us in the mid to low 14s. From there nothing out was significant until people found ways to tune the engine. Now there is a plethora of go-fast items in comparison.

I am so glad to see the GTP doing so well, after many hours of tinkering on my old GTP and not accomplishing much. It is refreshing to see that people did find ways to gain more out of this car.

But parts will be coming for the CL-S; it'll just take some time. Heck, I'm about to hand port my upper and lower intake manifold, hopefully it will be more successful than my attempted SC porting on my old GTP... Plus I'm trying an electronic trick on this car soon. Hopefully over time we will find the little things to make the CL-S more competitive when modded.

jimcol711

ill respond to this....

first of all, i have a CL-S....i love my CL-S...but i will not act all naive and pretend that the CL-S is faster than a GTP....i started this thread because first of all, im really impressed by a GTP running in the 11's..and second of all, because as much as we love our CL-S..some people here...(cough cough, quickcls...cough cough... thorodredcls....cough cough etc, etc, )seem to think that a CL-S is so frickin fast when it really isnt....ok try this one on..

NAME ONE CL-S THAT HAS EVER HIT LESS THAN 14.0 WITHOUT NITROUS


ok, thats what i thought....IT HASNT HAPPEND!!! not even with thousands of dollars in ever mod available to this day, it has not happend.

now how many GTPs are faster than 14.0....lets see....how about EVERY SINGLE GTP WITH 200 BUCKS IN MODS!!!! jesus christ, even one GTP went 13.9 stock.....

i started this thread because im so annoyed by some CL-S guys that refuse to give the GTP props...yeah yeah yeah, plasticy pontiac interior, yeah yeah, lousy GM service, yeah yeah, they need a supercharger to beat us...what the fuck ever, you can make excuses all you want all day long, but the GTP is a faster car at the drag strip IN EVERY WAY PERIOD...CASE CLOSED.... sure some GTPs run high 14's stock...AND GUESS WHAT...SOME CL-S RUN FUCKING HIGH 15'S STOCK!! the fact remains that the GREAT majority of GTP's that go to a track will easily run 14.5 or LESS with good track conditions, no spare tire, low gas, etc...ON THE SAME DAY, a stock CL-S WILL NOT BEAT THAT GIVEN THE SAME CONDITIONS...NO WAY...whatever, some acura drivers have this attitude that they are just better because they drive a "luxury car" or whatever but seriously, this thread is about SPEED and RACING ABILITY and POWER....im sorry but our beloved CL-S WILL NOT WIN IN ANY OF THOSE CATEGORIES.....case closed.

scalbert

I ran a 16.1 in my GTP once!!! Overly ambitious launch...:P

ThoroDredCLS

Hey jim - Calm down my friend, i am just stating facts. My cls is by no means fast. Fast enough for my intentions? YES, faster than a few phucks on the road in my daily driving experiences? YES. I have no problem with GTPs and I have even raced a couple. I am not coming down on you, or even against you, I am just stating, YES GTPS are FAST MODDED!!!!! IS THAT WHAT YOU WANTED ME TO SAY??? I don't care, I said it. On that note BIG DEAL.... SO gtps are capable of 11 sec times. There are other cars that are like us that are fast too. How about my boss's volvo C70?! His car is just like mine but he has a $hit load of modds and his car runs gtp modded times? Do I care? HELL NO! Like I said I do not want to see/look/care about a CLS run 11 sec. If a cls does do this than Why don't we keep a link to the GTP boards and everytime they break new records it will automatically post here. I think i am also on the same page with a lot of cls owners when i say......We don't care about a GTP. To each his own. OH by the way, the 2004 model does look a whole lot better than the older years. :P

Punk em all 733

Anybody got any figures for that 3.5 conv. I highly doubt this claim.

widerGTP

Simply put my problem was with the comment that the 3.8 is weak. By all intents and definitions of the word; it doesn't apply to the L67 or L36. Upon explaining why I felt it wasn't weak, some felt their toes were stepped on and the subject veered astray. Personally I like many, many cars. CL-S included. I tend to have issues with drivers and unfounded opinions with a lack of something to back them up.

jimcol711

the 3.5 liter conversion is supposed to do 300hp and 260 ft lbs torque (at the flywheel)

Punk em all 733

Doesn't look like the 3.5 conv. produces more TQ to me.

And Wider's comments also apply to me.

jimcol711

a CL-S has 232 ft lbs of torque stock...so 260 is definately an improvemnt...a 28 lb improvement, thats nothing to scoff at

Sonna Magill

Jimcol, good job, nice to see someone with an IQ of over 70 on the other side.

Punk em all 733

No someone said the 3.5 conv made more TQ then the 3.8. That is not the case.

allsock

2 things
1. The cls and gtp are near luxury cars that fulfill many roles, but not the role of strip machine. The real question is which car better fulfills the role it was intended for better and that is a matter of opinion.
2. ANY car can run 11's with enough money.

I think both vehicles do there respective jobs very well. personally I would push my cls over driving a gtp any day of the week, not because the gtp is a bad car but because I, like many people here, love my cls.
BTW making shitty comments about other people that you do not know on a board that you do not frequent is just asinine. And people wonder why abortion is legal.

scalbert

I still pose the question that many of the GTP owners have neglected; mid 14's stock is not the norm unless things have changed??

Keep in mind; I know more about the L67, 4T65E and their controls than many on the GP forum. I loved running mine and trying to determine what worked (not riding the coat tails of others). But stock mid 14's were not the constant between '97 and '00. So unless there is more hidden power from the GTPs the previous statements are bogus.

I know the GP is more potent when modded, heck I downgraded in terms of straight line performance when I traded in the '97 GTP. But I gained else where in terms of interior comfort and refinement. I have now traded the '01 in for one of the slickest shifting manuals ever made, an '03 CL-S. IMO, GM Powertrain makes some of the stoutest automatic transmissions but due to GM corporate wisdom they never incorporate a 5-Speed auto which IMO, would do very well for the GTP. But regardless, GM cannot make this smooth of a shifting manual; Honda and BMW only get this type of feel.

However, straight line performance is only part of it and no matter how we slice it, we are both launching a FWD chassis. The CL-S does have an advantage, especially the 6-Speed with HLSD, on a road course. But I guess many here don't understand that concept...

GTPguy97

DAMN!!! 0-103 (and 7 pages!!) in only 4 days?? This has to be some sort of record.

I really have nothing to add, I've raced plenty of CLs....I see SOOOOO many of them now. I haven't had one even come close to hanging, but I am modded.

Stock GTP vs. Stock CLS auto...............GTP 90% victory rate.
Stock GTP vs. Stock CLS 6-speed.........CLS 90% victory rate.
Modded GTP vs. Modded CLS...............GTP 95% victory rate.

Just an opinion.

Later,

scalbert

Although I am not a fan of the 3.5 conversion I will back it a little. No, it does not make more torque but it does make more overall power. The torque comes in the low 3 grand revs and continues up to about 6500. Take the area under the curve and you will find more total power. 260 versus 280 LB/FT but 300 HP versus 240 HP. Obviously not stock versus stock.

Add to this more aggresive gearing and there are serious potentials.

But the problem is that this is a block swap and not as simple as swapping a pulley. Forced induction will always have the advantage in simple mods. My Typhoon gained plenty from just a chip and intake...

Punk em all 733

Ummm, gm makes some of the best trannies in the world. they supply trannies to other companies, BMW buys trannies from them, I think the M5 tranny or one of there higher performimg cars trannys' is from GM.

True some GTps run 10.0-15.2, but 8 out of ten times if u learn how to launch these cars you will run 14.6-14.8. Basically hitting mid 14-high 14s is more the norm than the unusual.

The CL might be a bit of a better handler, but all I worry about when I race is straight line performance, I usually don't race on the twisties.

scalbert

I'll alter this a bit having experience with both.

1) Drop that to about 80% because it is much easier to hose a launch on the GTP.

2) Again, drop that percentage as we all know a manual launch can be screwed easily.

3) Depends on the transmission as a 6-Speed can run well.

IMO, a GTP will normally have better ETs. But the trap speed of the CL-S does show well. In fact I would suspect that a I/H 6-Speed CL-S would run down a GTP with I/P/E/PCM from a 20 MPH roll.

GTP4UNME

I would not say your average GTP will hit mid 14's stock at all. The norm is that with some practice launching for 2.0 - 2.1 60fts they will run 14.6-8 on average. However alot of stock GTP's you see at the track might be first timers and they will most likely run around 15.0 and up because of shitty starts.

Tim

scalbert

Please don't make your GTP brethern look bad by posting incorrect statements...

Yes, GM Powertrain supplies AUTOMATIC transmission to others. This includes the 4T65HD to Volvo and the 5L40E to BMW, but again, these are AUTOMATICS and I always give props to GM for their autos. My Turbo 400 trans in an old '76 Chevy van ran 400K without an overhaul.

But GM is not known for smooth shifting manuals!!

'10.0 - 15.2" was an honest typo mistake, I hope.

Again, where is this proof of most GTPs running mid to high 14s. I owned and raced one and am willing to accept that if GM has added hidden power they they can run these times. But for now I know what I was involved with, not hearsay or riding on what other do (which is pathetic) and know that a 14.7 - 15.0 is a normal stock time.

scalbert

I would 100% agree with that... With practice the GTP, when launched well, can run impressive times. But this is with semi seasoned racers, not a typically stock GTP.

As many who have been to the track can attest to, you can see some crappy times from great cars. The launch is what it is about. But this does apply to all cars.

Punk em all 733

Sorry about the tranny comments, about the manuals you're right.

10.o-15.2 was a mess up. It should read 15.0-15.2

scalbert

I'm sorry to hear you say that as the GTP can be made to handle very well as witnessed by many GP list members. In fact I remember seeing the first induced transmission failure occur during an autcross event.

The curves are racing, not to take anything away from the strip, but running hard for hours is very fun...

Punk em all 733

I don't think so, but I'd sure like to see it.

GTP4UNME

Also, weather can make the times vary ALOT with these cars, more than most. Many people have been able to get down to around 14.4-14.6 running in cool weather with some 2.0 60 fts. Again this is with lots of practice and many 14.8-15.2 runs.

Tim

Punk em all 733

I agree, with front and rear STBs, you can get rid of the sloppiness inherent in GTps or GTs

Punk em all 733

True heat affects these engines, moreso than most other cars.

1SICKLEX

It's a GM

vinnydahitman

this thread is going nowhere... all in favor of closing it??!??!??

ThoroDredCLS

Vinny - what have you been waiting for!!!

THREAD!