Pull_T

Hell...there's tons of cars (and trucks) out there that can whip my car, hell even after the blower goes in, there will still be plenty...

That wasn't my point, my point was this dude was talking smack without even posting times. Has he ever run it at the track???

I see what you are getting at about the truck not showing it's best from a standing start, but then again, if he posted times, I could at least get an idea of how we'd fare "from a roll" via the trap speed. I'd like to see what it traps if it can "whip the crap out of me"

I've seen what you guys can do with those TDs, I've seen them at the track many times and have always been impressed...

DieselPowr

http://membersites.nwbombers.com/cum...n/bdvshvac.mpg

OK hot shots...have a look at this .MPG before u go shooting off your mouth about how slow trucks are...mind you, these are DIESEL pickups...:P ....and i'd be glad to run any of you rice-burners ...so let's hear it

oilburner

He has put new parts on lately, so I'm sure he does'nt have any times or dyno numbers. I'm sure he'll be back and say the same thing.

What I'm talking about a rolling start is that the turbo lag is worst from idle. I've only dynoed 255/650 and am not the qiuckest off the line, but when it's already moving, I can and have hung with a 4.6 mustang (don't know about perf. mods but he had at least exhaust). I think he was a little pissed he could'nt pull a 3/4 ton, ext. cab, 4x4 (35 mph or so to about 100). So with an extra 150 hp or so, I'm sure he could take you rolling. I'm not trying to start a pissing contest, but have you road in a truck with 450-500 hp and 1000 or more ft lb of torque? If not, then you don't know how fast these things can be.

Pull_T

Well, as long as we are bench racing...

OK, you can "hang with" a 4.6 Mustang...I'll buy that. I have 70-80 rear wheel on a stock/lightly modded GT, so I don't see how he "whips" me even with 150 hp over you.

What does a truck done up like his trap? In my book, he'd need 110-112+ to "whip" me...

oilburner

You better "buy that". I don't lie. I feel for you if you have done any mods to something and can only dyno 70-80 hp. Hell, my lawnmower probably has more power.

As for trap speeds, one truck I know of had a trap speed of 108.99. His e.t. was 12.79. Diesel engines don't apply to gas engine rules. I have a picture of the truck going through the trap with his numbers on the board. BTW, he's from Corpus Christi and did this in Houston.

Pull_T

I stated I have 70-80 horseower on a GT which means 70-80 MORE, if you are that dense, then I have been wasting my time here. 108.99 should beat me from a roll, but he's not what I would call "whipping" me.

oilburner

You said 70-80 hp the first time, not 70-80 hp more. Sorry. You said GT, and your sig says Cobra, so what is it? A GT with Cobra badges you bought?. Maybe I should'nt trust what you say. The 108.99 was a drag race (note, from a stand still). That would beat you by .4 seconds. "Whipping" means beating. 108.99 beats 105.96 and 12.79 beats 13.21.

Bluto

Nice trucks. The Cummins is not cheap. About a $5k option? But, you do get what you pay for. Are you guys running these times on street tires? Do you setup anything different at the track?

Jconley

The Cummins is about a $4700.00 option the last time I looked. These drag races are on street tires and in many cases the trucks are not modified in any way once they get to the track. You may not notice this, but the trucks with the best 1/4 mi times are 4X4's. They run the race in 4wheel drive in order to get the power to the ground. My truck is a 2WD, and I can spin the rear tires (I have posi) at 60MPH on a wet road when my tranny goes into lockup.

tankmonkey

what's your point? my bike only has 120hp but all you'll see are my taillights. the fact is, pull_t's cobra doesn't *need* to make 1000hp and 1000 ft-lbs of torque to run 12s for the same reason my bike doesn't need 500hp to run 10s - light weight.

btw, what does your lawnmower run in the 1/4?

tankmonkey

I seriously doubt that...

1991 NSX

I've had both, 1991 Acura NSX and a 2000 Dodge 3500 4x4 CTD. The NSX is the best made car I have ever seen, and it drives like it is on rails. Plus it eats A008's every 12K miles, "oh well" just the price of having fun. The CTD is a torque monster, the truck is built like a brick xxxx house. Were talking apples and oranges, when we compare the Acura and the Dodge CTD. I will tell you Acura owners don't knock the CTD, they are sleepers and if you ever like to have fun and smoke unsupecting souls, then you need to own one. I like my CTD just as much as the NSX

tankmonkey

jconley, you're not disappointing me at all.

and I'm not trying to take anything away from these trucks - they are mighty impressive, to say the least.

my point is that most folks, given the option of, say, an unmodified c5 vette or a modified turbocharged heavy-duty diesel work truck, would likely choose something more like the vette for their needs.

hey, I'm a big fan of "sleepers", too (and the vette is definitely lacking in this regard) but my point is that there are easier ways to obtain this level of performance (hopefully ones that don't entail dragging around 7-8000lbs of truck everywhere you go ).

but then again, I shouldn't talk being that my daily driver is a 3500lb fwd "sport" coupe - which is not necessarily the ideal recipe for stellar performance, either.

as an aside - do you guys do any sort of braking system upgrades when boosting the performance of these trucks?

Mule

Oilburner is right.. I just added a new set of injectors last weekend. I travel a lot so I only get to play on the weekend. Right now I'm in Kommifornia. I'll post the dyno results in a week or two and try to make it to the drags soon.

I do have a G-tech that was sayin 14.7 before the injectors. I had Stage 3 injectors before(100hp over stock). the new ones are off the Stage scale but should be 250hp injectors. At my hp level I won't gain the 150hp but I'll get a good bit of it. I would bet on 500-550rwhp and 10-1200ftlb. Right now it smokes like a freight train so I'll be getting some more air.. either in a bottle or a second turbo.

I have to admit that right now the 1/4 mi times are not like they should be.. mainly driver error. Grabbing 3rd & 4th gears is really hard when launching in 4x4. 6 tires transferring over 1000ftlb is difficult to hang on to. I'm still practicing. Every time you make a major mod to these trucks you have to learn to drive it again. It's a blast and a challenge.

I'll be racing in Muncie, IN on Jun 7,8. Come on down if you wanna see.

I make it to Houston now and again too


The hp gains available for our trucks are really easy. I had 4" exh for these #'s .. and the dyno printouts to match.
Stock w/a boost elbow and fooler..212/449
PE comp box 296/734
stock + DD3 inj 302/640?
DD3+PE comp 377/891

that's +165hp/+342ftlb at peaks!!! gais at specific points on the curves are often a littlle more than that. My truck is an HO 6spd(ETH) the 5spd and Auto guys(ETCs) respond better to these mods and usually see a litlle over 400hp in the same trim. This can be done in 2-3 hrs. $650 for the PEC, $600 for injectors and $450 for 4"ex- turbo to tail. I also spent about $350 on gauges.

Soon after I added the B1 hybrid turbo and South Bend (Con FE) clutch. I have now upgraded some fuel system parts and added really big injectors. I am working on some R&D for a camshaft.
I intend to have NOS before Muncie wich should easily yield over 600rwhp.

This can be done much easier... I have a buddy in tulsa w/stock engine, ex, and turbo. He has huge injectors and fuel system mods and a couple of fuelling boxes and lots of NOS. he dynos around 540hp and runs low 13's in a 3500 QuadCab 2wd dually 5spd on street tires! (okay, he has 4 tires on the drive axle) I watched him spank a WRX from start to finish. he raced him three times. the first two he had bad launches and barely lost.. almost pulled him at the end. the third time was no contest.


FWIW,
Mark

Pull_T

God Damn you are obtuse...My sig plainly shows what I have a 1998 Mustang Cobra that dynos 284/290 and runs a 13.2@106

Oh well, thie truck that ran this 12.7@109 is not your's or Mule's so it's a bit of a case of "my dad can beat up your dad", since if you are going to bring in others' cars to show me what a truck can do, then you sure don't want me to bring in others' Mustangs into the arguement becasue you'd lose that "war"

You said you hung with a 4.6 Mustang which most likely is a GT since the vast majority of 4.6 Mustangs are. I have 70-80 hp on a GT (70-80 MORE HORSEPOWER!!!! YOU FUGGIN GET IT TRUCK BOY????)


And as for Mule...I laugh at your 14.7 GTECH time...you know how much more hp you'll need to drop a second and a half to match my time??? A whole lot with that 7000 pound beast. I hope those are 200+ horsepower injectors because you'll need them to "whip me" as your buddy claimed you could.

And another question...

What does this mean? Are you launch in 4x4 and then switching to rear wheel only during the run or something becasue I don't see why the 3rd and 4th shifts would be the problem.

tankmonkey

I'm glad to see someone finally edited the title of this thread...

tankmonkey

for those who are wondering about this sudden influx of turbodiesel guys...

Pull_T

Well, there calling their own out for BS...LOL....

MADDOG

Pull T, I am not going to come in here and badmouth what you drive or anyone else in this forum. I will point out that competition is a lot of fun, and each one of us has our own opinion of what we thinks is a great vehicle to drive. I must admit it's pure pleasure to beat a Mustang Cobra in the 1/4 mile with a 95 Ford F350 PSD 4X4 crewcab that tips the scales at 7800lbs and turns 35" tires. My truck will run 13.60's @102 mph in the 1/4, and that was at 4600' and 100 degree day. The two Cobras that raced that day were running high (13.90's). Now here are some reasons that I like my big truck. (1) because I can haul six adults around comfortably. (2) I can pull my horses somewhere and go hunting for the weekend. (3) and when I feel like it beat a Mustang Cobra at the drag strip. When talking about the Dodge Cummins you can be sure that it's no BS, it's not difficult at all to get one of these to run low 13 second ET's.
Well I think I will go look for my flame suit. :P

oilburner

Pull_T, I don't want to but heads any more. I was using that truck as an example to show trap speeds will be slower, with qiucker e.t.'s compared to a gas powered car. I know that the top dog in the diesel truck arena has no chance against a bad ass Mustang.

As for how this got started, Mule said he could probably beat people in the 1/4 mile on this thread in general (not aiming that at you). He can probably beat quite a few of them. So it's not BS.

No sarcasim meant in any of this post.

tankmonkey

turbo motors are far more efficient at altitude than non-turbocharged motors, so that probably isn't a fair comparison of your truck's abilities vs. the typical cobra's abilities...

(this is not to take anything away from your truck, though - it's still faster than my cl-s.)

Mule

It wouldn't take anymore hp to get my 7600# BEAST into the 13's. It'd take and auto tranny. unlike your gassers diesels require a load to make boost and therefore hp.
The Auto guys load up the turbo off the line and never unload it on the shifts. I could drop a FULL second maybe more. The NOS I 'm getting should get me that and then some as it will eliminate turbo lag.

I'm in San Francisco right now. there's a truck here... see www.performancediesel.net ... owned by a friend of mine running an auto and slicks on #2 diesel only..12.8sec@108mph. He dyno'd at 600hp. So, I'm really not that far from stomping your little grass snake.

Come take ride some time. As I run throught the gears, try to grab the dash before I hit 4th gear then you'll understand why the 4x4 launches are hard. The fact is they are just brutally strong and the drive line torques enough that hitting the gates on the tranny is difficult at times.

without 4 wheel drive I spin tires all the way through 4th gear and part of 5th.

oh, yeah... my14.7sec time was at 101mph.

Later,
Mark

MADDOG

I did not say it was a fair comparison because we are not comparing apples to apples. We are comparing a big heavy non-airodynamic brick to a sleek low to the ground light performance car (I might add a very nice looking car, and I wouldn't mind having one in my garage) and if we were at sea level I would still beat them. I just think it's neat to have a mid 13 second daily driver that will haul a big load, plow through mud and snow, take my family to church, and kick some butt at the strip.

tankmonkey

okay, I'm intrigued...

why would a turbodiesel have to be under load to make boost?

in connection with the above, does a diesel motor have to be under load to generate exhaust gases?

is it something funky with the exhaust or wastegate setups on diesel motors?

1SICKLEX

Why are we racing 345,934 lbs trucks? Please explain?

tankmonkey

1. the effect of poor aerodynamics is reduced at altitude as well.

2. I never said you wouldn't beat the cobras at sea level, I said it wasn't a fair comparison of your truck's abilities vis-a-vis the cobra's. in other words, you'll benefit somewhat coming back down to sea level, but the naturally aspirated engines will benefit markedly by running at sea level versus ~4500 ft. you may still be faster, but it probably isn't by as much as it would appear at that altitude. of course, there's only one way to find out, right?

3. I fully agree with your other load hauling, mud/snow plowing, church going, ass-kicking points. (plus trucks are great for carrying motorcycles, but fast trucks are even more so... )

Pull_T

Well, I must be confused because earlier in the thread you were stating that a TD would perform better from a roll than standing start:

Which in quarter mile terms would be a relatively high mph for a particular ET (say 12.7@118) now you are claiming the opposite that they perform well in ET, but mph is relatively low (12.8@108).

Teach me Oily-Wan

Mule

Our motors are not metered like a gasser... you guys meter air and add fuel to match. We meter fuel and the air just sorta shows up... via turbos and such. Diesels have no butterfly valve in the intake. The only things in my intake path is a turbo, intercooler and grid heater(for cold starts).

In a diesel there is no such thing as a lean condition. under load our a:f ratio is similar to a gasser(14-16:1) but at idle it's more like 90:1 or 100:1 ..just enough to keep it turning. Our throttle position is really more like an RPM setting than your throttle setting... like I said your throttle is setting the amount of available air ours is determining the rpm at which we want to attain.

We don't worry about detonation in the sense that you do. We worry about 'overfueling'.. the black smoke maker. the smoke is oxidized but yet unburnt fuel. It causes high Exhast Gas Temperatures (EGTs). High EGTs are combated w/more air via, turbos, better exhaust flow, larger/less restricive air filters, head porting, cams, mild propane(acts as a catalyst), etc.

We do get detonation but it is due to things like large amounts of propane. Propane is injected in the intake and is present during compression. At high boost pressures it is possible for the propane to ignite prior to diesel injection causing a spike in cylinder pressures that is likely to smoke a head gasket or pound bearings and pistons.

If I sit at the line and run it to the rev limiter I will never see any boost because the engine doen't need anymore fuel to make that rpm. as soon as I add a load the rpm starts to drop and the injection system tries to keep the motor at that same rpm.. when the fuel comes on the boost is soon to follow.

My turbo will make 60-70psi of boost if fueled and loaded properly. in my trucks trim I'll see in the 50's. It's got a wastegate that's bolted shut. Cummins has some race engines that are making 130psi of boost on stock head gaskets w/o o-rings.

You'll quickly find that those smelly old diesels are not the low tech dinsaurs that the public perceives and the nature of their design (forced induction, no lean state, etc) causes them to be very fast and efficient daily drivers.

How much does it cost to tripple the hp in your gasser?

I hope this clears up a few points.

1SICKLEX

Damn I have learned a bunch of stuff about trucks, diesel and all

Mule

It's called torque. HP is really a mathematical calculation based on available torque.

Power is a force through a distance in a set period of time.. torque is just a twisting force.

HP determines the trap speed torque gets the ET.

a few hypothetical cases... not far off reality but exagerated to show effect.

It's like this.. Let's say that I can only attain 111mph but I can do it in just over 1/8mi. My average speed will be higher than yours at 120 mph because you are accelerating all the way to the trap and probably hit 111mph at 1050' or 1100' down the track.

Because I have now toped out the truck you will pass me soon after the 1/4 mi. This is the case with some of the 11.9x trucks. they are running against the limiter at the end of the track. they run out of gear not HP.

I all goes back to design. a rule of thumb for CTDs is 2.15xHP=TQ.
I make 2.5 - 3 times the torque of your mustang so I can accelerate 3 times as much weight.. I only have twice as much weight though.

It's like a BB vs SB race .. both w/the same HP but the BB wins. Why? the 550 ftlb of torque in the BB vs the 350ftlb of torque in the SB. The Sb will likly have a higher trap speed due to less weight but will have a slower average velocity.

Later,
Mark

tankmonkey

cool. thanks for the lesson in diesel technology - very informative.


boy, you guys sure have a hang up about this whole "smelly old diesel" thing. lol.

honestly, I think a lot of americans are just remembering those old diesels gm was putting into oldsmobiles and the like back in the late 70's and early 80's.

the old vw rabbit diesels and various peugeot diesels in production back then prolly didn't help anything, either.

think you could triple your horsepower (cheaply or otherwise) without that turbocharger?

yup. thanks for taking the time to explain the turbo/diesel setup.

Mule

I'm a diesel nerd and comuter geek w/a red neck :P I sorta enjoy it.

W/o a turbo... no way in He!!.. but it came w/one stock.. that $4700 option get's you lots of neat toys.

Jconley

Without a turbo, the truck wouldnt get out of its own way...

Black CL-S 4-Life

Shit me to. I never knew there was a aftermarket for CTD's, or that they could be so fast. Props to you guys.

oilburner

Pull_T, I said I was through butting heads. Since things have calmed down and people are learning things, why start argueing again?

Pull_T

I just wanted to be clear on how these trucks run...are they strongest from a roll or off the line?

oilburner

With a manual tranny like mine and Mule's, they are usually not as quick from a standing start because we can't build any boost before we start moving and get a load on the engine. The auto guys, which are almost always faster in a drag race with the same mods , can power brake and build boost at the line. We need boost to make power. Without the boost, we don't have enough air to burn all the diesel that is injected in the cylinder. It's a totally different world than gas engines. For example, you can dyno a little higher numbers if you have a 3.55 rearend compared to a 4.10 because the 3.55's make the engine work harder, building more boost.

Jconley

Lets just say and be happy with " they run great" Off the line it depends on rear end ratio, manual or auto tranny, 2WD or 4WD. 4WD will pull better off the line than 2WD. Automatics will pull better off the line than manuals. It depends on the truck. From a roll, it depends on the tranny again, and the TC makes a difference in the automatics from a rolling start. One Mfg uses fluid coupling to put the power to the ground, and one uses full lockup. Sound like enough variables?? There is no magic statement as to what is better. It all depends on the HP, torque, and the ability to put the power to the ground. The Cummins is the king of low end torque, so the longer we stay in the 2000 RPM range, the smaller our tailights get ... rolling or from a stop

Pull_T

Gotcha, didn't realize that it was difficult to build boost with the manual. You can't bring the boost up with the manual like I can with my 5000 rpm launches and clutch slipping. I totally understand.

oilburner

When I'm sitting still, I can get on it full throttle up to 3200 RPM or so and can't budge the needle on the boost gauge. Now when I'm rolling, I can hit 30 psi in a second or two.