Esti

Someone from Acura-legend.com found this article on fordes.com regarding acura. I think they are correct.

http://www.forbes.com/home/2003/04/0...0401flint.html


How about u guys?

Esti

Zoot

repost and ibtl


see Auto. News forum........

NOVAwhiteTypeS

ouch

dacura

iTrader: (1)

Read the article. Think the article wasn't substantiated with very good arguments. First, just because a car is under 30k doesn't necessary rule out luxury car status. That depends on the content, performance, material quality. etc and not totally dependent on price. I'm not arguing for Acura on this point. Just disagree with the article's claim. Second, styling is totally subjective. I don't think BMW styling is anything special either so I don't get this point. Third, Acura makes fewer cars/trucks/vehicles than the mentioned makes (Lexus, BMW. MB,etc.) and that's the reason that the numbers are smaller. Does not mean that they're not competitive in their respective segments. I think that Honda is a smaller and more conservative company that some of the other mentioned.

Loseit

iTrader: (1)

i think it hit home big time.

Esti

Sorry for repost- I figured it was already up but I did a search and didn't come up with anything.

"repost and ibtl" - What does "ibtl" mean?


Esti

Zoot

ibtl= in before the lock

Esti

Thanks - got one more in

123456SPEED

Interesting article and mostly very true. But I must fall somewhere in the middle, I don't want to spend $45k+ on a Japanese or even German car. I want a move up from the Honda mainstream cars. Where does that leave me? In the near lux market. My top price for a car would be $30-35k. I don't want any BMW or Mercedes that would be that price, they're wannabes.
So for me Acura fits the bill, some performance, some lux, and not a stripped down 5 series or a C series Mercedes.
I think the article misses the point, I don't want Acura going after the BMW 5, or the Mercedes E or S. I'm happy with a $30k car that has what the Acura has. If Acura starts selling $40+ cars with V8s, I'm outta there.
With resale, the only cars worth that price to me are the mid to upper German cars.

Guru

The article didn't mention that honda made the most profit per car last year of Japanese and American manufactures.

CLSter

I disagree that an eight-cylinder is needed. Honda can do more with a 6 cylinder than many manufacturers can do with an eight. I do wish the AWD and/or rear wheel drive would've been used. Front wheel drive will always lag in the handling department. And then there's that Model name argument, what the hell is that about? I couldn't tell you what Mercedes is what. The only thing is lack of 'edgy' styling and proper marketing. Nissan only succeeded once they took some styling risks.

sorty

So what? BMW sells its v6 3 and 5 series the most, I'm tired of it. I love that feeling I get when i'm in a car that you don't see too often on the road.

JRock

Good article, right on point.

flipwhip

i tihnk the article was un-objective crap

PavDog

Agreed. I really like the VTEC V6.. Stick with that.

Yes, the model names are confusing. I have to explain the naming to just about everybody that asks me about Acura.. Seems kinda moronic.

They definitely need to do be more progressive with the styling. And I'm not saying "revolutionary" styling changes, but rather "Evolutionary" ones. A good place to start is with simple color choices. Look at the choices you get from BMW, VW, etc. There's waaaay more. With Honda/Acura it's like "what shade of metallic beige do you want?". WTF?!?

And one change I hope Acura doesn't implement is the "I've got the bigger logo" thing that's going on. Any thoughts on the latest Nissan hamburger? What's up with that? it's practically 1/2 the grill!

I'd really like to stay with Acura and hope the sales drops will force some radical changes there.. Let's hope.

Slimey

Very biased, non-objective reporting. But I guess it's a magazine, and not a newspaper which at least has the guise of objectivism

His points are pointless:
1) No 8 cylinder. Who cares? They should continue to do what they're good at. I'm not counting cylinders, I'm looking at the whole package.

2) Undistinguished syling. OK, how about the undistinguished styling of BMW, Mercedes, Audi, and Lexus? BMW 3,5, and 7 series are some of the most boring cars I've seen (and keep seeing). A five year old doing a kindergarten drawing could do better (let's see: draw a box; add wheels; slightly round some corners of said box). Face it, distinguished styling only comes on the true sports cars, and all the manufacturers do well at this (NSX, 350Z, Z8, Viper...).

3) FWD. Face it dude, FWD is not a detraction. You obviously cannot do a high end tracked car with FWD, but who cares? The average consumer is not taking their car autocrossing or to the track. Not to mention, FWD is BETTER then FWD (for the average person) in foul weather. AWD/4WD is nice, but mostly unnecessary and adds to production costs, maintanence costs, and decreases (sometimes) MPG.

4) Model Names changing to letters/numbers. How is this even a point? Every automobile manufacturer that he compares to does this. BMW, MB, Audi, Lexus, Infiniti, Jaguar... and Acura. It's obviously the vogue thing to do and many of the aforementioned manufacturers have been getting away with it for years.

Yes, sales are down, but Acura and Honda are not going under in the least. Maybe Acura division should do some changes if they want to increase sales, but none of the issues mentioned are really that relevant.

OTOH, It sounds like the guy just read one of the various bitch session posts here and got a 'story' in Forbes from it.

Chaptorial

A good article that makes some vaild points, if not a lot of opinions. However if Acura started making their coupes and sedans top out at a price close to BMW ($40k+ for a 3 series) I think they could easily be right there with them.

Its total bullshit to compare lower priced cars to those that are more money and wonder why they sometime fall short!

Shawn S

Many of you guys don’t want to admit it, but there’s a LOT of truth in that article.
Renaming the Legend to the RL in 1996 was their first big mistake.

I really don’t consider it renaming though. I always figured the Legend was discontinued and the RL was a new model that couldn’t quite fill its shoes.

Shawn S

CLS2001_97124

Interesting artical.. seem a bit biase but still good in terms of information.

dacura

iTrader: (1)

I never understood the problem with name change. It's not like the Legend name ever had Testerossa status. I actually liked the alphanumeric designations not that they'll ever make a difference to me when buying a car. I bet it's harder to come up with different names for 6 or 7 cars than just giving them numbers.

shaHn78

Is that article written by a high schooler?

'03CL&'03AV6EX

Geez, guys it's just an over priced Honda. We all knew that when we purchased it. Forbes is right on the mark. Think about it, When you purchased your new CL-S for 32K the first thing you had to do was contact Comptech so that you could make the car right. If Acura was selling a true Lux sport vehicle you wouldn't have to do that. BTW the cost of the mods plus the cost of car you could have gotten very close to a 42K lux sport car, maybe even with an 8 cylinder. My CL is just like my Harley. New it was a fine scooter. However, to make it right, I had to spend alot of money. You don't hear me complaining. I love my bike and the Acura is just okay.

zippy

The article hits the nail on the haed. When Acura was introduced it was supposed to go head to head with BMW. That was their intent. But somewhere they seemed to have abandoned that idea.

The original Legend did in fact stack up well with the 525 of the day. But the RL doesn't even com close. It appears that Honda was going after the Cadillac market with the RL, poor choice.

Again the TL and CL are great cars, but what do they compete with...certainly not the 5 series or even an E type Merc. They are very different cars from the 3 series, but then again a bit less expensive. Audi? GS35?

The TSX and RSX compete with the....IS 300? Certainly not anything from BMW, Merc, or Audi, and they are a bit underpowered even for the Maxima

Honda has made a habit of sticking the Acuras models in between the competition's models, which is okay, but leaves them a bit out in the cold. Why are they abandoning the CL, because its sales number are too low to sustain it.

Even if we don't want to believe it, people want 8 cylinders and rear wheel drive.

RWD is considered very important to most enthusiasts, even Honda realized that with the S2000.

We all love our cars, but as a luxury car company, Honda is is not very good.

whiteknight

This article is right on the money!

blackmagiCL_S

The article says a lot of what I have been thinking for a while. RWD would be a big selling point for a sport coupe like ours. I think that Honda has done pretty well with the V6 engines so I won't go beating the "we need a V8" drum. The naming has bothered me a bit...especially the Legend/RL. It dropped a few notches in many Honda fan's eyes when they changed the nomenclature and started calling everything by stupid letters. As someone mentioned, other companies were doing it or years and Acura did it as a "me too" move. It wasn't necessary. Acura aimed high when they first started but the current lineup doesn't quite line up to the competition as far as luxury. Don't get me wrong...I love my car just like most of you.

123456SPEED

honda philosphy has always been fuel economy, efficiency, responsibility and I think they brought that marvelously to the near lux market, like no one else. Too bad people just want big SUVs and big engines. If you know how to design a 6 cylinder right you don't need that. I'm afraid Acura may fall through the crack, but I love what they do with coupe design and 6 cylinders.
I do not want a $35-$45k car with a huge engine. i want a smart, well designed Acura, too bad more people don't know what they are missing. It's hard to offer what they do at this price, between mainstream cars prices and Lexus prices.

dacura

iTrader: (1)

123456Speed I agree with you. Honda/Acura IS a successful company afterall. We're all making it seem like it's a failure when it is not even close to being one. They compete differently. Sure some may want a V8, rwd and back to the Legend name (which I still don't see how a name really can make a car drop down a few notches-based on what?), but apparently a lot of people want V6 and FWD as well. Who's to really say that Acura is failing when they're selling record number of cars.

Acuras are surely Hondas, so is a Lexus a Toyota. Would you call a BMW 318 a luxury car just because it's a BMW ? I don't know what this point is really trying to say.

Rob_Marciano

The article made very valid points, although I don't think anyone should prepare a casket for Honda/Acura just yet.
I think they are waiting for a chance to do something big but aren't sure if they should deviate from their "if it ain't broke don't fix it" motto. This is my 2nd Acura and I loved both of them a lot. I think Honda is kinda punking out by now offering a stronger version of their cars. I know fuel efficiency, economic pricing, and a "stable" V6 are Honda's tried and true calling cards, but they have to realize that to stay on top you have to risk it all sometimes(perfect example is Nissan).

I guess that what the nerd from Forbes was trying to say to Honda was: "Those who dare, win."

F23A4

I totally agree!!

Slimey, who cares about 8 cylinders??? Answer: The market to which the RL is aimed!! Where've you been? And that market contains the LS400/LS430 and Q45. An argument can be made that the RL is also aimed at the 530i and E320 but they both at least offer a V8 variant.

Insult to injury: Honda is looking to aim the TSX at the BMW 3-series crowd. Now that might work if the 3-series' only model was the 323. But, I can't imagine any 3 series buyers considering a 4cyl/FWD Acura over a 6cyl/RWD BMW; the TL-S would be a better choice.

The best thing to happen to Acura since the 2G Legend is the MDX and Type S CL/TL.

My advice to Honda (besides hiring Carlos Goshn and firing Tom Elliot):
- Dump the current Civic Si and import the Type R model
- Import the new Integra Type R; with its 225hp, it'll easily outperform the current WRX in an autocross
- Rename the RSX a cool name like --- Integra
- Restyle and re-equip a new NSX (the current car is 13 y/o) with a 32v V8 packing iVTEC and 6speed tranny.
- Pump up the MDX to 300hp/300lb-ft; i'd definitely get that over an FX45
- Setup the new TL/CL with RWD to compete with the G35 & 3 series; offer both with a 6speed manual tranny
- Resurrect the Acura Legend with a drivetrain matching or close to the NSX (described above)

Peace.

Slimey

It's funny. I've never thought of a BMW as a luxury car at all. In my mind, they're just German cars with a range of style from econobox to lux cruiser. I guess it depends on one's perspective. I had friends with BMWs in the 70s and they seemed just as much of a shitbox as my Opel or someone elses VW. MB has always had a luxury reputation, but they've made their share of underacheivers too.

Edit: To complete my thought -- Car lines the ring luxury to me are ones like Jaguar, Bentley, Rolls Royce, Cadillac (yes), most of Mercedes, and probably a couple others. I wouldn't put BMW on that list, just like I wouldn't put Toyota on the that list.

dacura

iTrader: (1)

"Think about it, When you purchased your new CL-S for 32K the first thing you had to do was contact Comptech so that you could make the car right."

--- Not to be confrontational: But really ? I NEVER thought about contacting Comptech. I guess I'm in the minority on that one. If I want a better performing car and spend more money, I would much rather buy another car with the performance I really want instead of modding it.

123456SPEED

There's just always been something about Honda and their design and philosophy. I remember when I first really looked at the Honda emblem on a Prelude, and I got immediately where they were at. I know it sounds weird, but it projected a simple and straightforward but smart, owner friendly approach. This is why I liked the VW before that and why the beetle was the most successful world car ever.
Honda early on had that same simple, well built, functional, efficient, carefree, user friendly design. It was so right and uncomplicated, and unpretentious. Some call it an appliance, not a car. but Toyota makes appliances, Honda made it fun.

Honda took that beautifully up to the Legend and for me, the coupes. With Hondas you knew the maker really loved the car and was having fun too -, That was so cool. That's harder to find these days, even with some of the newer Hondas.

I prefer to have Acura stay smaller than Lexus or whoever. Look what happens when car companies get too big. They worry about keeping mainstream buyers (Camry and Accord), or they get lazy and start putting out crap (GM, Ford in the 70-80s), they turn corporate in style and thinking.
They become too trapped by the bottom $ rather than focused on making a great CAR for their market. I know the market is very complicated now, but the more Honda can keep some of their original ideas the better success they will have. Remember the funny VW commercials in the 60-70s where the company even made fun of their cars cause they really loved what they made, and Honda had that too, keep it fun, carefree, but smart too. sermon 1xx over!

Aegean_Blue6

Acura has to focus on what it's good at, and that's ideally to make reliable, higher-end cars off of it's high-volume Honda platforms with reasonably fuel-efficient but peppy 4 and 6-bangers. The JA32 is a work of art to me, they get 260HP out of a 3.2V6, and could have 290+ at the crank if they used better headers a la Comptech. Beef that up to a new 3.5 and you'll be just fine for an RL or MDX. That, a better sport package (type-R?) and a little riskier styling would help their image quite a bit.

Working off of the Honda platform helps them offer cars that underprice the competition by thousands of dollars, and the FWD platform does make for better bad-weather handling. Acura may never have the prestige that MB or BMW has, so if they become followers and try to emulate them, they're almost sure to lose. Prestige buyers will still go German, so they'll have to fight with value. If they continue to make great bang-for-the-buck cars with high reliability and 95% of the performance and luxury for thousands of $ less, and market themselves a bit better, you might just see a turnaround.

neoprufrok

The article states exactly what I've been thinking lately.

1) V8 is necessary, as much as Honda doesn't care to make it. You need a flagship that will make all owners proud. Everytime I see an A8, a 740, or an S500, I think of the power and wealth they exude, as well as the underlying technology. A V6 just doesn't compete against these heavyweights, it just makes Honda look wimpy.

2) Design needs to change. Audi, BMW, and Mercedes do it very simply. They take one design philosophy and apply it to nearly every model, while changing certain details, angles, configurations to make the cars look different between model lines. Acura's need crisper lines, and a more aggressive but stately look.

jwong77

What are you smoking? The RL costs like half of those cars. Thats like saying the RL is waaaaay better than a Ford Escort. Jesus, compare apples to apples please! When did Honda say that the RL was intended to go against those cars anyway? Even if they did they'ed leave like a 40thousand dollar gap in their price range to fill with what? A TL? Plus have you seen A8 sales, they sell like one a year or something stupid like that. So it sure doesn't seem to help Audi any. Plus that'll make Honda's bottom line look real good to investors. Plus Acura needs crisper lines for sure, but please don't use the 740 as inspiration.

sundance_gold

I thought the article was very interesting and also quite correct.

I really don't care about the V8 but I drove a new 91 Legend and also test drove an 02 RL. Over the years (91-02) the definition of "luxury car" has definitely changed (just look at the toys today's cars have). But I honetly have to say that while the Legend was an exciting and luxuriously driving car in 91, that is not the case any longer. Try this test: test drive the RL back to back with the Toyota Avalon. The RL and the Avalon are worlds apart on the market they cater to but when you drive them, the experience is very similar--and for about $15,000 difference in price, I can live without the finery that the RL has and the Avalon does not have. Also, the RL only had (in '02 I believe) 220 HP--when our cars had 260. Again the RL, while intended to be the flagship, really wasn't.

This article is more of a case study in "what worked 17 years ago may or may not work today" instead of putting down Honda and Acura. I still believe that Acura builts a great car and its more reliable and a better value than many others out there.

dacura

iTrader: (1)

"This article is more of a case study in "what worked 17 years ago may or may not work today" instead of putting down Honda and Acura"

Agreed. But it certainly did not seem that the author was trying to convey this at all. Rather, I felt that he was making negative comments about a company which he perceived to be failing. Failing at what ? Being a luxury car company or being a company that can't sell cars ? What is a true luxury make these days when some many companies are offering low end models alongside their higher end cars. And Acura is certainly selling a good number of cars, a number they're satisfied with. So I don't really get his point/points. Sure I like to see Acura offer even better cars than what they offer now, but that's a desire, an opinion. I doubt that my views deserve an article in Forbes. His don't either.

Moog-Type-S

I agree with the article in part....
The Legend had better styling (especially the coupe) years ago compared to the BLAND RL.
With the exception of the NSX, Acura's vehicle styling designs are conservative compared to Lexus, Infiniti, Audi, MB. Acura is trying to sell themselves as a Luxury Automaker. "Acura is the performance luxury division of the American Honda Motor Company." - quote from Acura.com
Forbes says not quite Luxury. Right now they appear to be a niche market automaker, not quite full luxury, but not quite Honda mainstream. It would seem that they don't have the right marketing, or brash to put out cars like Infiniti, or Lexus. They need to pull-off what Infiniti is doing: After years of luxo-type bland cars they are now making stylish, perfomance, luxury cars. Acura needs a wake-up call just like Infiniti...but I don't think the TSX is the answer.

Perhaps the 2004-2005 TL and RL will blow us away???
We can only hope.

zippy

Agreed, just look at the 1st and 2nd Gen Legends. They were incredible machines for their time (I had 2 2nd gen., an LS and a GS, and the GS was hands down my favorite vehicle.)
The car combined luxury and performance in a way that made BWM owners take notice.

The current vehicles are not quite luxury, in a BMW (yes BMW), Mercedes, or Lexus way. Yes their entire line is priced below those Marques for "comparable", models, but in fact they are not comparable models.

I am a very loyal Honda owner having owned 6 Hondas and 5 Acruas over the years. But I have also owned BMW and Lexus vehicles and I can state that these folks are listening to their markets. Acura's market is shrinking versus the competition, because their cars are less appealling to the market segment that they are playing in.

It's simple, if you give the consumer what he wants, he will buy it.
With only 2700 CL-S being produced, I would think they need to rethink their market strategies. I am not sure how many 330s are made or IS 300s, but I am quite confident it is considerably more.

cnatra