jimcol711

i have noticed when browsing forums for cars like mustangs, camaros, vettes, etc....everyone there has one of their first mods listed as changing out the gears.....now obviously they have rear wheel drive and we have FWD but is there a way we could do something like that to our cars??? clearly those guys get some serious benefits from the gear changes, surely our car would do the same....i mean, if we could change some of our gears, that would theoretically give us a nice boost of torque!! and we could fix that shitty 4th gear we have....any thoughts on this??

NSXNEXT

iTrader: (2)

Maybe Level10 can help us out. Wasn't there another guy that could make modified trannys and TCs for us? I can't remember the name of his company.

jimcol711

theortically, you should be able to get a nice boost of torque and maybe even a few ponies from changing the gear ratios, i mean shit, our trannies are doomed anyhow, maybe we could beef them up and change the gearing while we are at it., that would make it worth it!

Zapata

uhm, ok but what are you going to change? 4th gear? it'll be useless in 1/4 times. You need a higher final drive becuase of the ATX. So that really doesn't leave much......

http://www.quaifeamerica.com

NOVAwhiteTypeS

anyone who played Gran turismo knows how important gears are. You can make a car faster to 0~60 or 0~100 by changing the gears than adding a intake or other mod.

NOVAwhiteTypeS

actuallly our 1st and 2nd are pretty tall so w/ a shorter gear we'll have more power to the ground. just like the 6 speeds.

If our 5 speed auto's had aggressive gears like the 6 speed then we'll be right up w/ them

and yes we deff have to change out our 4th. it needs to be closer to 1:1

jimcol711

so how come its so easy for other cars to change gears but for our cars its a multi-thousand dollar job with major tranny work? cant we just pop that sucker open and change the gears and put it back together?

jimcol711

ok, how about this, is it possible to make a new SECOND gear and just slide the rest of the gears down one spot, i.e.

1st gear stays the same
2nd gear is new
3rd gear is now the old 2nd gear
4th gear is now the old 3rd gear
5th gear stays the same

is that possible???

JasonT

It would work, but like Zapata said you wouldn't get much. On the Chrysler 300M I had, you could get a set of smaller gears, or gears from an intrepid tranny put in the 300M tranny, & you would change the gears, & increase off the line performance. However that was a 4 speed tranny. Alot more play to adjust. In fact that 300M special that came out has the Intrepid gears in it.

Zapata

5EAT--6MT

2.563 / 3.933
1.552 / 2.478
1.021 / 1.700
0.653 / 1.250

4.428 / 3.286


Examine the numbers. The high final drive number for the auto compensates for the lower gearing in 1>3. You could raise the ratio of the gears but all that would do is plant you between 4k>7k but it's not going to make the car faster in the 1/4.
You could increase the final drive a little more so you can wind out 3rd gear completely in the 1/4 but that's it.

tankmonkey

for what it's worth, when the guys on the domestic forums talk about "changing gears" they're referring to the gears in the rear differential, not the transmission itself.

the problem is, most fwd cars and several rwd cars (nsx, c5 vette, porsches, etc.) have transaxles where the differential gears are housed in the same cases as the transmission itself (thus the name).

this design tends to make swapping differential gears on a transaxle significantly more difficult than it would be on a rear-end differential because you generally have to pull the unit and crack the cases open.

changing the transmission gear ratios is not commonly done with production transmissions due to the expense and effort involved. racing specific transmissions, such as some rally-style "dog" boxes and non-synchro "crash" boxes are sometimes available with cassettes of gear pairs that can be interchanged to adjust the gearing to suit the power characteristics of the motor, but they tend to be expensive and ill-suited to everyday street usage.

Starter

I guess I'm just ignorant about cars.....but just how exactly will gear changes increase horsepower or torque????

What a gear change will do is put the engine rpms in the "sweet spot" of the horsepower or torque curves at different speeds than they are now.

Starter

What he said.

Juker008

Oh hell yea I remember in GT2 having my Brave Little Toaster do the SanFran track floored out the whole way .


Juker008

Scooter

anyone try changing gears in GT3 for the CLS and duplicating in real life???

call me crazy, but if the CLS is designed in the game exactly like it is in real life, perhaps it's worth trying

Scrib

Well maybe I'll just have to go do that...

jimcol711

wait a minute, the CL-S was in Gran Turismo 3???? youve got to be kidding me, i had that game for awhile and never even knew it, do you ahve screen shots or something?? how does it look?

Scooter

yer kiddin, right???

look at the box cover...what do u see??? could it b the rear of the CL???

Scooter

CCType-S

By changing the gear ratio doesn't gain any HP at all. The only benefit by changing to the higher gear ratio is raising the RPM much faster than the lower gear ratio.

AcuraTLSFan

Yeah CCTYpe-S is correct...when changing gear ratio...you aren't looking to increase HP...you're looking on how to space them out to the "best" profile. Profile as in : daily driving, racing, rally...etc.. TL/CL are daily driving cars...not racing cars... So the gear ratios are geared accordingly. But if want your car to accelerate faster..you would need to change your gear ratio.

Changing gear ratio means that your changing the Number of Teeth the one specfic gear has, the diameter of the gear is still the same. So the concept of changing 2nd gear and moving all the other gears down won't work because simply the size of the gears won't fit.

When you want more torque, you would want more teeth on the gear...for example...let's say first gear is 4:1 (neglecting final drive ratio) ...that means for every 4 revolutions in the crankshaft...you will get 1 revolution in the driveshaft. Let's change it 2:1, for every 2 crankshaft rev. = 1 driveshaft rev. Get it? The 4:1 will give you more torque comparted to 2:1...but 4:1 will limit your speed because you will redline faster than at 2:1 That's why1st gear takes you to about40 MPH , 2nd gear takes you to 65 MPH, 3 rd somewhere around 120, and 4th &5th is 147+ MPH. Redline is the limiting factor, ours is 6900 RPM....so by 6900 RPM it is a critical point saying you need to shift to a higher gear. The higher the redline the longer you can stay in a lower gear before having to upshift to a higher gear and having less torque.

When you change your gear ratio...giving you more torque, you will lose speed...Every car manu. wants high end torque, but that isn't possible, it's a design compromise/trade-off between Speed/Torque.

Let's say you want to optimize a TL/CL for a o-60 MPH race...you will change the get ratio so that will go through all 5 gears and redline by the time you get to 60MPH...this would be great for 0-60 races..but not good for everyday driving. Because you will get all this low end torque..but your car is limited to only 60 mph.

Kinda get it?

jimcol711

that definately explains things alot more clearly. i still think that it would be a very effective and exciting mod to change the gears, obviously, it would be an expensive undertaking, but it would be pretty neat....their HAS to be some way to change the ratios of 1st gear thru 4th gear and have 5th gear be the same or VERY similar, that way you will always have that high speed/low rpm overdrive gear, but quicker acceleration to get there!!

EricL

IF you dropped that 1-4 while leaving the 5th gear unchanged, you would end up with a couple of situations.

You could move 4th so that the engine HP peaked at 149 MPH. Well, as it turns out, with the stock car, the HP peak is pretty close to the top-speed cut-off.

So, if you now drop all of the ratios down, you have people that will complain about NOT being able to 149MPH due to the engine hitting the rev limiter. The 5th (overdrive) is so tall, that you would need a 3.5L and S/C to get back up to 149 MPH again.

With the headers and CAI, the torque peak moves to approx. 6K rpm. The HP peak is moved up, and the car still cant get up to 149 in 5th (someone will say they did it and if they had a tail wind and/or were going down hill, it's possible).

So, you end in a trade-off situation.

IF the car was a RWD, you could add one of those planetary gear change mechanisms that just sit on the back of a RWD’s transmission; it would allow you to switch from 1:1 gearing (straight through) to a lower effective ratio for acceleration. I looked around an can’t find the reference at the moment. (It’s been shown at SEMA)

To make everyone "happy", the car would need six speeds and even then, there would people, that depending on need, would not be happy. Unfortunately, the current automatic does NOT lend itself to easy gear changes. IMO, the electronics alone would be a pain in the ass...

You can always move to 7.5" or 8" wide wheels and move to 235/40 tires to get an improved overall ratio. Sure, the speedo is off, but the NAVI, VSA, etc will correct up to around +/- 7%. You lose a few percent of overdrive...

IMO, the 6-speed has the optimal spacing for "most" uses. A CVT would/could allow an "everybody happy" option by offering an option to electronically "tinker" with the fixed ratios (you pick the number of fixed gears and the individual ratios).

jimcol711

personally, i could care less whether my CL-S top speed is 149 or 130 or even 120..i mean realistically, how often do any of us drive 140 mph, let alone 149??? maybe once or twice in our ownership of the car will we push it that high, and also, how many times do we all drive even 110-120 mph?? VERY RARELY if at all, so i think that for all of us, a sacrafice of 10-30 mph of top speed would be WELL worth it if we were able to get quicker acceleration down low in the gears!! the top speed is something that 99% of us couldnt care less about, as most of us probably will never even attempt to reach it. its just stupid and unsafe, ill admit, ive got my car over 140, but its something i dont feel the need to ever do again, i mean seriously, if a cop sees you doing anything NEAR 140, hell, even 100, you are FUCKED!!! so like i said, the whole thing about sacraficing top speed is TOTALLY not an issue here as far as im concerned and im sure most others would agree

jimcol711

heres a question for all....why the hell didnt acura use the gear ratios of the 6 speed on the automatic?? is their any logical reason that ONLY a manual tranny should have those more aggressive gearings?? how about the possibility of somehow incorporating the 6 speed tranny gears into the automatic tranny, granted, the 6 speed has an extra gear, but its up top, and no one would need that anyhow...

Starter

There are some of us who would like to run our cars at a track day (this is road racing for those of you just into 1/4 mile stuff). The various marque clubs (Porsche, BMW, etc), NASA and others have days at tracks all over the country where you can let it go. Speeds on the straights will be well over 100.

Nashua_Night_Hawk

At one time, i had a 40 miles commute each way... 25 where 65 MPG Zone... I used to cruise at 95 MPH and sprint to 105 MPH...

If in germany it can be done safely no reason the NA cars can't do it... However, there are 10X more stupid drivers in the US than in germany.

Zapata

jim,
Topspeed isn't the only issue. You'll be crusing along at 65 mph with the tach at like 4k. You're MPG will be in the domestice gas hog SUV range.

jimcol711

thats why im saying that we'd keep an overdrive gear for highway driving

Zapata

Jim,
ok so what part of the gearing would you change?? What would you increase and what would you decrease. You don't need to give specific #'s but generally what would you do?

jimcol711

what im saying, is to find a way for us to have a more agressive 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gear while leaving 5th the same for an overdrive gear. similar to the ratios of the 6 speed tranny, look at how different the 2 trannies gears are in relation to their aggressiveness, the 6 speed out accelerates the auto because of the gearing....well, and its probably partially due to the fact that their is less of a tranny power loss, but the gearing is for sure involved

Zapata

Through the first 3 gears the 6MT and the 5AT are about the same. The only reason the 6mt our accelerates the 5AT is the weight loss, MT and LSD. But i see what you are saying. You could make the 1>4 more aggressive and leave 5 where it's at.

EricL

Yeah, I got that.

Well, I have watched as a number of members have expressed dismay over only being able to only go 149. There are a lot of 20- to 30-year-olds driving the car and want to “push the envelope.” Around here (CA), if you go over 100-mph, you can be hauled off to jail (not fun). OTOH, there are a number of Chuck Yeagers that love to set time-to-distance records. What's the current count on, "My car has no balls in 4th gear" and “Does anyone know how to remove the top-speed limiter” threads?

We could quibble till the end of time over what gearing is best -- and until one of actually lived with the gearing for a while, the opinions could change due to: economy, drivability, wear-and-tear, and myriad other issues that don't seem germane at this time.


The interesting point is seeing that Mercedes and other auto makers using 5-speeds seem to follow a similar strategy.

So, what do you propose? Having 1-3 moved down by 5, 10, 20, or X percent? And, 4th moved down 10, 20, 30, or X percent?

I actually like the current gear choices for first and second gears in the automatic. The third gear choice depends on where I am. In the hills, I'd like the ratio in the 6-speed third gear. On the highway, I like the current third gear.

You are arguing tastes. I have no idea about your 99% figure. Perhaps you should run a poll and you would at least get a "skewed" set of stats based on this site's demographics.

And, once again, you absolutely correct about heading to some very large premium hikes and possible jail time for getting nailed doing 140 in the wrong location (we're talking 'B' movie material).

I'm not unreasonable, and depending on circumstance and mood, I have changing opinions on the gearing. What does that say for younger members?

If I had my way on my local hills, I'd leave 1st and 2nd alone and 3rd goes to 90. Out on the freeway, 1st - 3rd go back to stock and 4th tops out at 130, 5th stays put. Out in some desert areas that are basically empty, I'd like 1-3 left alone, 4th goes to 130 and 5th tops out at 155. (I'm not expecting a CVT for this car anytime soon, but I sure would take care of you, me, and other people when set to fixed ratios. What's wrong with letting everyone have his or her own perfect solution? It isn't banned from F1 because it blows up!

There is also an issue where you can drop the gear ratio down too far. It is not a "given" that simply dropping the gear ratios is a sure ticket to better ETs. You have traction and inertial issues that influence this. For example, if you have stock tires, you are going to increase the wheel spin and increase the engine side inertial losses.

If this really bugs you -- what is your objection to changing rolling stock to allow you to get better traction and an altered gearing?

jimcol711

my objection is that if i do that, my car will rack up mileage WAAAY fast. we all know that a smaller tire will increase rotations per mile and i really dont want to rack up the mileage any faster than it already does, my odometer already is fast by between 1-2% in STOCK wheels. anything smaller like a 225/45/17 or 225/40/17 may give me better acceleration, but at the cost of about 2000 miles off of my original factory warranty, about 4000 miles off of my 100k tranny warranty, and the pain of knowing my car really only has 96,000 miles on it when the odometer shows 100,000...that is something id rather avoid because that will cause my resale value to plumet much quicker than if the mileage goes on as it should. hell if anything, maybe i should get a set of 215/65/17 on there for awhile and LOWER my mileage!!!

AcuraTLSFan

Well...the topic at hand is..

Yes it's possible to change the gear ratio for our cars....but the market for swaping/changing gear ratios for the Acura TL/CL isn't great enough. Maybe you can find someone to do a custom job for you..=)

I do agree with most that 2 overdrive gears isn't necessary...but i guess honda wanted to have a 32 MPG rating and have 1750 RPM at 60 MPH. For an everyday car....gears 1 and 2 are good...3 could be a bit higher....and for should be 1:1 like the BMW and 5 would be the overdrive gear...

There isn't much we can do...just go get some OBX headers...or you can get the SC when it comes out.

Pull_T

Well, obviously you would do as the RWD domestic cars do and put in a compensator for the speedo. Really, dependent on where/how the odometer reading is measured, you would not need to even compensate. In my RWD car, where I changed the rear ring & pinion, a method of compensation was needed as the reading is picked up from the output of the transmission (basically the driveshaft revolutions). In your cars, if the reading was picked up downstream of the change (whick it would be if you merely changed individual transmission gears), you would not need to compensate. Think about it....your car does not rack up mileage differently in different gears.

Another point:

In reality, on a dyno, putting shorter gears in (such as my swap from 3.27 stock gears to 4.30s) you will actually lose horsepower and torque on a dyno, say 1-2% on my application. Obviously, the mechanical advantage and ability to reach the powerband quicker more than makes up for that though

Juker008

Plz explain this.

CVT? Banned from F1 because it blow up??? Plz explain.


Juker008

Juker008

HAAA Now there is an idea.


Juker008

SiGGy

i dont care about the 150mph top end anyway. I'd rather have it faster to 140, than to have a top speed which takes 10 years to get too anyway. Good idea, but I bet not worth the $, at least to me anyway.

Wires

Good in theory, shitty in practice. You'll have great acceleration, but it's going to suck the big one if you drive in hilly regions or the mountains.

I had a 2000 Mustang GT 5 speed, and the bottom 4 gears were close together, and 5th was O/D. In the mountains that shitty 4.6L had no balls in 5th, so I'd downshift to 4th. Now the engines screaming at 4000 RPM, so I go back to 5th. Now it's lugging. Christ I hated that P.O.S.!

The spacing on the CL-S is waaaayyy better than that.