M5 Lite

Would love to hear some good stories.

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'98 Dakar Yellow ///M3
www.BMWExperience.com

'02 TL-S Soon!

moomaster_99

You know something??? Ever since I got my CL-S...all the damn 4-cylinders that used to beat my Corolla (straight line, mind you...I would destroy many a car in the corners...even the vaulted ITR.) They don't wanna race anymore...the only thing that wants to run are...V8s...its not that bad...but c'mon...let's match engine sizes here....M's are great cars..but alot of them don't wanna race...not after what I did to this one purple 98 M3....

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2001 Cl-S Black on Black with Navigation
Black Tint all around (15%~45%)
Weapon-R Dragon Filter
Weapon-R Coil-Overs
Koni Adjustable Struts
Comptech Sway Bars
(sooner than I thought...)
Comptech Headers

M5 Lite

I have to admit CL-S are great cars, fast too. But come on please be realistic, you can't whoop an M3, unless the guy is a rookie AND driving an auto. I am asking about racing rice burners. Those damn cars piss me off, can't stand looking at the coffee can exhausts!!! Bastards gotta fit in someway or another.

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'98 Dakar Yellow ///M3
www.BMWExperience.com

'02 TL-S Soon!

Tom2

Yeah, I've actually raced my own CL-S with my M3 (brother was driving the Acura) and a stock CL-S really can't keep up with a stock M3.

Then again, this isn't the concept of the CL-S. It's a sport-luxury touring car, not a dragstrip/road circuit racer.

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CL-S and M3

moomaster_99

True...but how many people KNOW HOW TO DRIVE AN M3??? And the last M3 I raced, well...he ended up spinning out and crashing into a fire hydrant....broke both suspension arms in the rear...hood was smashed....airbags popped and ....here's the kicker, he just got it out of the shop...HOW MANY CL-S'S HAVE YOU DONE THAT TO???
Note: this is not saying that the M3 won't beat my car pretty good, but rear-wheel drive is a tricky thing to master.

------------------
2001 Cl-S Black on Black with Navigation
Black Tint all around (15%~45%)
Weapon-R Dragon Filter
Weapon-R Coil-Overs
Koni Adjustable Struts
Comptech Sway Bars
(sooner than I thought...)
Comptech Headers

M5 Lite

no doubt its a tricky way of driving, but once you get the hang of it, its more fun than sex! CL-S is a luxury touring car and its beats the M3 in that sense!


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'98 Dakar Yellow ///M3
www.BMWExperience.com

'02 TL-S Soon!

Phat-S

Yeah, em . . . bullshit!


all the damn 4-cylinders that used to beat my Corolla (straight line, mind you...I would destroy many a car in the corners...even the vaulted ITR.)


I don't think so pal. Not even your VAULTED CL-S is gonna destroy an ITR in the corners. I have been on road courses with them in my CL-S and I have to fight tooth and nail just to stay in the mirrors of the damned thing!


but rear-wheel drive is a tricky thing to master. Whaaaaaaaat? Give me a break. That feeling you get when you are trying to follow an M3 into a turn - you know that scuffing sound combined with drifting further and further away from the apex of a turn? Yeah, that's called push and a CL-S has got a ton of it. That push is what keeps your car a.) from being fast and b.) from sitting on the same fu*king fire hydrant. That isn't skill or handling, it is what Acura does to keep people who don't know how to drive a powerful car at speed from putting it into a parked car!



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Drive it on the street. Race it on the track.

98ITR461

Ok, so I usually don't bother w/this stuff, but I'm here to do nothing more than question.

moomaster_99:
Destroying ITRs in the turns? I guess the ITR is pretty weak in the turns. Why it's regarded as the best FWD track car, straight off the showroom floor, I just can't understand.

Sheez. Better check the navi; I think you're tracked out a bit too far, if you catch my drift....which you may not, in more ways than one!

Ok, I'll dial it back. Let me ask this - how many track events, driver schools, etc have you been too? I'm guessing none, based on the fact that you like to street race. I won't even say how stoopid I think that is.

M3s run into fire hydrants becuase you're so fast? Not sure I understand that. If you think that your CL-S is immune from jacking off a hydrant, you're wrong. RWD can be driven just as hard a FWD. There are differences, no doubt. Too much throttle in a turn can kick a RWD out. Take a FWD car, even the "vaulted ITR", put it into a turn too fast and get off the gas...or worse, hit the brakes.....then say hello to your ass as it comes around to greet you.

Dude, I've seen one CL-S at the track, and even w/a competent driver behind the wheel, street tires vs what, 3200 lbs....physics quickly take over. The way the car is set up, you're looking as some serious plow. You'd notice it as the 2600lb vaulted ITR pulls away from you w/its limited slip. You won't see the ITR, not until it laps you again. And I don't just make this shit up. If M3sin has gone to the track, he might know. It's not much different for a stock E36 M. They're better than the CL-S on the track, but they have to be driven at 10/10ths to stick w/the R. Some can be driven faster than the R. I like M3s, esp when I get point bys from em! Yes they have more HP and can haul down a stretch, but I'm tied to their bumpers and exiting strong through the turns.

I dunno, what should I say on sign off.....boys race on the street, men race on the track? That's a pretty solid slogan IMO, but I'm sure it'll overtorque someones lugnuts here.

Don't get me wrong here - I'm not slamming the S. I like the car. A good friend of mine has one....the first one that had custom Porterfields cut for it. That's an indicator of his seriousness. But I'll guarantee you, the ITR, on a road course, you can't even line em up it's such a mismatch. Down a drag strip - it's hard to deny 260hp a good placing. Fine. But the ITR was born on the road course. Sorry if you may think otherwise. Go see for yourself if you don't believe me. Or just ask phat-S.

CLpower

how not to drive an m3

Acura_CL

I disagree with the RWD is tough to master. RWD has been around since the dawn of cars. Our grandparents didn't have anything else, and they got around pretty well. Even my parents, mom in her 60's Mustang, dad in his Thunderbird) were all RWD. One simply has to get used to RWD or FWD. If you live in California where it never snows you don't really need FWD... Here in PA where we get terrible road conditions just about every year, RWD is almost needed. But... and this is a big but sandbags in the trunk quickly solve the RWD in snow problem.

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http://albums.photopoint.com/j/Album...698&a=11616550
Red 3.2 CL-S.
"Life is too short not to be Italian." -Paul Sorvino

Tom2

That's funny. I've posted that same exact picture before under the heading, "I think this guy needs an alignment"

But I'm wondering if that car is actually an M3 or maybe just a 328 w/aftermarket rims. He has the M3 side mirrors and body kit, but the spoiler looks aftermarket (of course he could have a real M3 and had an aftermarket spoiler installed) and the seats are totally wrong. I've never seen seats with headrests like that in an M3. For comparison, look at this pic of my M3. It's a crappy shot, but I couldn't fine any good pics of my car that showed the seats. Notice that the headrests are MUCH slimmer than the ones in the crashed pic. This leads me to believe that the car is not really an M3.

Not that it really matters anyway, 'cause anyone can manage to crash any car. But think about this: If the car was an M3, and the guy managed to spin it, imagine what would have happened if he was driving a CL-S in the same manner. I wonder if the VSA would've kicked in and saved his ass? Actually, he probably would've had the VSA off, in order to drive the car at its limits.



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CL-S and M3

badazzS

Before I got my CL-S, I had a '98 ITR. I loved that car. I am also now loving the type S. Yes, the S will never keep up with the ITR in the turns, but it will in the straight-aways. The trap time is even actually a little faster than the ITR by like .2 mph. This is fine for the drag strip, otherwise it will kill the S in the turns. But who really cares anyway, our car is for luxury

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Why buy a special edition car and not drive it like it was meant to be driven

volsfan0911

my, what an interesting discussion.

FWD cars, by design (and physics), tend to understeer at the limit. Not that this is an absolute. Witness the Acuras kicking everyone else's butt in the Spdvsn GT Touring series. Or the fact that the ITR reigns supreme out of the box in Auto-X. Well, I saw a few Foci(?) whuppin' ass at the last one I watched in Charlotte Typically, they are setup to be predictable anywhere near the limits though and with that much weight up front, will generally plow when pushed. Also cheaper & easier to build for manufacturers.

RWD usually distributes weight better (or more evenly). In Tom's case with the E36 M3, I believe it's damn near 50/50 perfect. RWD also adds the element of being able to steer with the thottle. After breakin, I'm looking forward to some track time in the Z06. I understand it's a handful with Active Handling disengaged . There is also the issue of vehicle dynamics when taking off, braking etc. Since weight shifts rearward under acceleration, you're increasing traction to the powered wheels (this is good). Under braking, you are unloading the powered wheels (this is not so good - does the expression 'ass end sideways' mean anything now? ) and this can be bad.

Personally, I strongly prefer the latter (RWD - not spinning out). Modern traction control systems & tires will handle 99% of the weather I get (South Carolina). However, many folks in rear drive cars and good snow tires have dealt with nasty weather for years, no problem. I also don't care about how efficient FWD packaging is for passenger room. It's just me and maybe one (female) rider - if I'm lucky. Plus, there is nothing in the world like controlling a 4 wheel drift coming out of a corner with the throttle. Yes, it means you just lost time, but damn, it's fun. And looks good on tv also!

$0.02



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when you're ready to succeed!

M5 Lite

I agree with you on that one. Its probably a 325 or 328 or heck even a 318 with the M3 package. Heck, can't see a M3 losing control like that. Oh well, at least thats not me =) When the hell is the TL-S going to come?!?!? I want to test drive it before buying it!!!!!


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'98 Dakar Yellow ///M3
www.BMWExperience.com

'02 TL-S Soon!

[This message has been edited by M3Sins (edited 03-02-2001).]

[This message has been edited by M3Sins (edited 03-02-2001).]

moomaster_99

Okay...let me start by letting you know a Macpherson Sturt coil-over set-up when modified is far better than the double wishbone set-up...which is way better stock...ITRs are great...incredible cars (there I said it)....but hey doesn't it come down to the driver???
As for you spat at street racing.....It's a personal preference. Whatever...you don't like it...not everyone can be liked...As for your asking me about events. I been to Sears Point Raceway in SONOMA,CA, POMONA RACEWAY, SACRAMENTO RACEWAY and Russell Racing school...what about you???
I never said it was my CL that was chasing down ITRs...and I have no doubt on a real road course, an ITR would probably clean my clock..with an experienced driver. SO, does that answer your knocks against me???? You sound like those MUSCLE HEADS THAT USED TO THINK A FWD COULD NEVER BREAK 12s,11s,10s,9s AND THEN 8s.

------------------
2001 Cl-S Black on Black with Navigation
Black Tint all around (15%~45%)
Weapon-R Dragon Filter
Weapon-R Coil-Overs
Koni Adjustable Struts
Comptech Sway Bars
(sooner than I thought...)
Comptech Headers

DtEW

moo: I would advise as a semi-knowledgeable automotive enthusiast and uninvolved 3rd party that you don't really want to try for any more counter-arguments. They're not ganging up on you. They're simply right.

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051/LP/SR/LD/HH

yezbozz

hmmmmm, all this talk about an m3....hence the m3 is a rice burner????

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2001 cls: silver/black;spoiler;mud guards

future mods : headers;intake;exhaust;springs

M5 Lite

This isn't a discussion regarding the M3, its regarding killing rice burners. But hey, whatever floats the boat ya know. Just had a comment regarding FWD vs. RWD. I personally think RWD takes a little more talent to drive because of the trickiness of it in fast turns. I personally don't know anyone who takes a FWD to the track but would love to hear the arguements about which one handles better and whY??


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'98 Dakar Yellow ///M3
www.BMWExperience.com

'02 TL-S Soon!

oonowindoo

first of all, what is ITR? =)
second of all, could a CL-S keep up with a 98 M3 (AUTO) 4 doors.
thirdly, I hate RWD, because i have seen 2 of my friends died with it in the rain on the freeway. One of them had a supra, and another one had a chevy truck ( i forgot which one).
and what is a Rice Burner? Mustangs?

98ITR461

badazzS:
Down the straights, the CL-S can boggie. I've passed my buddy exiting a turn, only to have him stay snug on the bumper until the next set! Good stuff.

moomaster:
Dude, you're right - drivers make all the diff in the world. But I read you saying that you dogged an ITR....I didn't see anything about you saying that you "beat a poor driver." Put my mom in an F40 and you could smoke her....but to post an F40 kill....it's kinda like boasting that you dunked on your kid sister! ;-) For me, that pretty much invalidates impromptu street racing. Some kid or whoever? Why bother. That's my preference. At least at the track, I am grouped w/drivers of similar skill. That way I know more that they are comparable to me. If get a point by from them, I can feel good about that When I can get a Vette or M3 or 911 to give me a point by, makes me feel like I did something that has a little more bragging rights to it. Again, my preference. After VIR last wkend, I'll probably skip track events until I install some roll protection - bar or cage. On stickies, my speeds are just gonna be a little too fast to risk crunching my head into my chest. (it's one mod that I hope to never really use) I'm not trying to talk serious smack here. Sometimes, the posts over here can get a little deep! Gotta wonder sometimes.

M3Sins: FWD on the track has it's +/- as I think a RWD car has. Rotation is a nice thing at times. How to get it in a RWD is by gassing. FWD - lifting or trail braking is what you have to do. When exiting a turn, it's nice to be on the gas, which is the advantage that the RWD will have. For the FWD to stay competitive, it's best to carry as much speed as possible into the turn. RWD usually has better weight distribution, plus when you hammer the throttle, you load the tires that are moving your arse down the road - that's a plus. Too hot into a tight turn might bring on some push, which is quite likely in a FWD. A little lift can give back some rotation to keep all wheels on! (whew) Gas a FWD too hard in a turn and you start to give up steering response. Thats' when you need to "make a straight", as lightbulb-head would say. LSDs can help to put that power back to the asphalt.

oonowindoo: ITR = Integra Type R.

M5 Lite

98ITR461:

Nice post man!

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'98 Dakar Yellow ///M3
www.BMWExperience.com

'02 TL-S Soon!

98ITR461

M3Sins:
What's your take on the new M3 (E46?) I read some letters to Roundel from Bimmer fans who are kinda dis'd w/the new one. Of course, the HP sounds pretty intense, but I think the grip is that the car is getting bigger/heavier. Some say that they are catering more to the lux mkt instead of the perf mkt. If you go back to the E30s, those were some pretty cool cars. Body style was the same, but fenders were bulging for more tire room - very cool agressive look. That wasn't that strong a motor, but the car had to be lighter weight, making it more fun to toss around. I've seen some pretty quick ones out there - one even had a E36 transplant I believe. Is your E36 your first M?

Have you seen the pix of the possible revamp of the 2 series? Now that could be a cool little car on the track!

Phat-S

Staying OT (since noone seems to care about rice burners in this topic anyway):

M3Sins: Don't know that I agree with you on I personally think RWD takes a little more talent to drive because of the trickiness of it in fast turns. It takes just as much talent to drive a FWD as fast as a RWD through a turn, just a different approach. For a quick turn in a FWD like your typical CL-S, you need to trail brake in (too much and you loop it) and throttle out (too late and hello curbing, too early and hello kitty litter - I think the guys who can do this consistently are exceptionally talented and I don't feel I am one of them). On a 50/50 weight distributed RWD, brake to load the fronts and power through it (feathering the throttle as you feel it slip - just worry about too much throttle). Having done both, I prefer the RWD, might be sketchier in the rain but its far easier to go faster in the dry (for me).

In regards to oonowindoo's friends who got into trouble in the rain, agreed, stock setup an FWD is far less likely to get out of control on questionable road surfaces.
Having said that, no car is immuned and with some mods, a FWDs can be more treacherous than RWDs. Almsot all production cars come off the assy line with built-in push.
When you make upgrades such as beefier linear springs and sway bar upgrades you negate what safety has been built into the car (basically a fast great handling track car is a handful on normal roads especially in bad weather). E.G. take our CL-S and put on the Comptech sways, lowering springs (actually those are pretty lame, for the
example, throw on some 550# linear rate springs) and let the camber sit where it will from the lowering. What you have is 133% stiffer rear end, 50% stiffer front end, more negative camber front and rear and a lower center of gravity with a much harder recoil on suspension unload.

On a dry off ramp, that will be a pretty nice setup.

On a wet one, the effects of driving in too fast and lifting out of the throttle will introduce the rear end of your car to the curbing because you have taken away grip from the rear through the springs and swaybar.

On a wet one, the effects of driving at a normal speed will not fully load the suspension and the effect will be driving on half the tread width you've bought because of the added negative camber. Don't lift! I spent all of Saturday white knuckled from this.

OTOH, with a stiffer front end and stickier rear end (as it is stock), go into the turn too fast and lift, (the car may rotate a bit but with the soft stock suspension, unlikely) the weight shift will restore your front traction. That's why they build em like that.

Don't get me wrong, I am not opposed upgrading a car (far from it if you look at how I spend my spare change) but I would advise anyone doing so to go to an auto-X or a HPDE and learn what your car does and when it does it and most importantly, what you do when it does what it does before you put anything more that new tires on the thing (that I would do when I left the lot unless you got the Pilot's opposed to the Michelins).

Moo - I am not going to knock you for street racing. I will say that since you have been to some tracks, you have to see a difference between a turn that was blown off that morning with a corner worker station and a person looking to drop a flag for debris, caution, etc . . . and the street where you don't know if someone dropped antifreeze 30 minutes ago in your path or some jackass is going to run a light in front of you. I would hate to see anyone on this board wad up their beautiful CL-S (or CL-P, rice burner, IS300, or anything else for that matter). I look at dogging it on the street the same way I look at motorcycles. I hated giving my bike up but one double sukahara over a Cutlass and I quickly figured out that I can be as good and attentive as possible and I could still buy the farm.

------------------
Drive it on the street. Race it on the track.

M5 Lite

Phat-S:

I have driven RWD and FWD. Thats just my opinion. I personally haven't raced with the FWD but thats just my 2 cents worth of knowledge =). You are probably right but I am not that technically inclined as most people here when it comes to cars. All I know is that I like or don't like it (keeping it simple =)).


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'98 Dakar Yellow ///M3
www.BMWExperience.com

'02 TL-S Soon!

M5 Lite

98ITR461:
My take on the new E46 M3 is this:
I WANT IT!!!!!
I disagree with you on the fact that its more geared now towards the luxury end rather than the performance end. Some people say adding a Navi in a perf. car kills the perf. look of the car, but hey even the new Lambos have the navi option. I do agree with you on the weight of the cars. The E30 M3 was around 2750 lbs and then they got heavier with the E36 at 3175lbs and now with the E46 M3 at 3454lbs. The weight is really holding the cars back. If BMW would be able to make an M3 which weighs only 2800 lbs with the 333 HP, then it would be a huge WOW!
I know for a fact that BMW is coming out with a lightweight version of the M3 (minus the AC/maybe radio/lighter hood/basically the same as the E36 lightweight). That should make the E46 M3 come to around 3000 lbs (hopefully). Now that would definitly rock my world! My '98 M3 is my first E36 M car, I owned a E36 328is before and am looking at a Acura TL-S next or a 95 E36 M3 because it supports more bolt-ons with more power out of the 3.0 liter I-6 engine and get that sucker really rev-happy! I got a review of a 97 M3, 2001 M3 and hopefully today have a '88 M3 vs Mercedes 2.3-16 at www.bmwexperience.com under the reviews section.

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'98 Dakar Yellow ///M3
www.BMWExperience.com

'02 TL-S Soon!

[This message has been edited by M3Sins (edited 03-07-2001).]

Cee eL eS

hey moomaster,

just wondering, since u say it wasn't the cl-s u used to beat ITRs, then was it the corolla? i can actually believe u can beat an ITR w/ a corolla gt-s (AE86). those things are great on the track. would this happen to be the car u used?

[This message has been edited by Cee eL eS (edited 03-07-2001).]

M5 Lite

A corolla Gt-S??? huh? Why am I so confused all of a sudden?



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'98 Dakar Yellow ///M3
www.BMWExperience.com

'02 TL-S Soon!

98ITR461

The lux vs perf was basically a take from a Roundel subscriber - all I really know is the engine.

So the 95 is that diff from the 98? I thought they were the same...but what do I know!

The fact that the 3 series has grown by 700 lbs is sad. Maybe they are making room in the lineup for a 2 series. Probably just wishful thinnking on my part.

M5 Lite

Actually a 2-series is in production. Its the year 2002 BMW Cooper. If interested you can check it out on my website under the 'Reviews' section. My website is www.bmwexperience.com

Yeah 95 M3 was a 3.0L engine with the 240hp and forgot how much torque (little less than the 3.2L) and the 96-99 uses the 3.2L engine putting out 240hp with 232lbs of torque (I think). The 95 M3 is much easier to modify with engine upgrades and you get more power out of the upgrades as well.

Just my 2 cents.

Enjoy!


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'98 Dakar Yellow ///M3
www.BMWExperience.com

'02 TL-S Soon!

Stravis

I think he might be talking about the 3 series coupe which was displayed at the 2001 Geneva Motor Show. According to Motor Trend the North American market may get them, but who knows... Europe will getting two models: a 115-horsepower four-cylinder and a 193-horse inline six.

Cee eL eS

thats right...corolla gt-s aka the ae86. it was a rwd corolla from i think the early 80's to 86. it's a really good car for autoXing and has a cult following in japan and here. excellent handling and the engine is quite easy to mod. w/ the right driver, it can keep up w/ the best of them on twisties, even the ITR.

M5 Lite

The ITR? Are you sure?

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'98 Dakar Yellow ///M3
www.BMWExperience.com

'02 TL-S Soon!

Cee eL eS

yep. not to say that the corolla is a better car, but given the right driver, it can take on ITRs in autocrossing. now if the drivers were of the same talent, i would easily say the ITR would win 9 out of 10 times. but i've been to some autocrosses and have seen corollas, miatas, and ITRs keep up w/ ferraris and porches on the same track.

amir was here

great story!

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2001 CL-S
Black/Black
Moonroof Visor
Black Wood Dash Kit
Currently on TL rims with Nokian Winter Tires
My Bitch

M5 Lite

Ya loser, stop replying to everyones sh!t. Your messing up the whole forum!


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'98 Dakar Yellow ///M3
www.BMWExperience.com

'02 TL-S Soon!

amir was here

how?


------------------
2001 CL-S
Black/Black
Moonroof Visor
35% Tint All Around
Black Wood Dash Kit
Currently on TL rims with Nokian Winter Tires
My Bitch

Stravis

Well let's see....
You reply to many, many topics and all you say is "Great story". This is pretty much spam and is pretty annoying. If you want to get your post count up just contribute normal posts like the rest of us.

M5 Lite

Finally a IS300!!!!!! Damn, about time. I wanted to race this piece of crap for such a long time after hearing all the stories here. Well, it was late and I was coming home from work today in my '98 ///M3 and pulled up next to a IS300 (black with tinted windows, looked pretty stock to me). Well, gave the guy a good 2 revs to see if he accepted the challenge. Sounded like he put the car in neutral and gave me a little "meow" of a rev. I knew it was and as soon as my light hit green, I popped the clutch at 4000 RPM. Spun my tires, it was kinda hard getting good traction since it rained this morning but nonetheless, in second gear I had about 1/2 car length on him, third, got him about 1 car length, fourth, got about 2 and then stopped at around 95MPH after I saw light traffic up ahead. He flashed his headlights at me and it felt so good to beat a corolla...err..I meant to say IS300. All in all, they are fast cars, but I think he could have NOT lost that bad if he knew what he was doing. Looked like he just bought the car a while ago because he had a temporary sticker in the front windshild and yet still had the balls to race.

Bottom Line: IS300 is a fast car, but the downside is that its a Lexus. Thank you, please try again! =)

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'98 Dakar Yellow ///M3
www.BMWExperience.com

'02 TL-S Soon!

Tom2

M3Sins,

Let me get this straight:

YOU pulled up next to an IS300 and challenged him in an M3? Gimme a break. Maybe you should pick on a Nissan Xterra next or something. If you want a challenging race, try a Vette or Cobra Mustang next time.

By the way, even spinning your tires, you should have beaten an IS300 by more than 2 car lengths.

You should be ashamed of yourself.



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CL-S and M3

Tom2

You don't think he should have lost by 2 car lengths? If he knew what he was doing, it should have been a closer race?

I only have a few questions for your post:

1- Do you really own an M3?
2- Are you an extremely poor street racer?
3- Are you really an IS300 troll, trying to make the IS300 look better/faster than it is?

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CL-S and M3



[This message has been edited by Tom2 (edited 03-13-2001).]