sygyzy

Hi,

I recently posted a question about whether it was ok to change just two tires (it was). I went in this morning to get the new front tires and instaleld and while I was there I asked for an alignment check. There's nothing in my driving that indicated I may need alignment but then again, I am no car expert.

They said that my alignment was off, especially in the rear (camber) and that I needed some sort of bar to fix it, otherwise I would have uneven wear on my tires. I took pictures of my front tires (which were the ones needing replacement) and my friend (who I trust) said that my wear was very even. He joked that I must drive like a grandma I know that's not related to the rear, which is what this thread is about.


Here are the numbers:

(All in degrees, Acura TSX 2004-08)

Front Left (Actual/Before/Specified Range):
Camber: (0.3 / 0.3 / -.8 to .8)
Caster: (2.4 / 2.4 / 2.5 to 4.0)
Toe: (-0.83 / -0.83 / -.08 to .08)

Front Right (Actual/Before/Specified Range):
Camber: (0.0 / 0.0 / -.8 to .8)
Caster: (3.2 / 3.2 / 2.5 to 4.0)
Toe: (0.60 / 0.59 / -.08 to .08)

Front (Actual/Before/Specified Range):
Cross Camber: (0.4 / 0.4 / -.8 to .8)
Cross Caster: (-0.7 / -0.7 / -.8 to .8)
Total Toe: (-0.23 / -0.24 / -.16 to .16)

-----------------------------------------

Rear Left (Actual/Before/Specified Range):
Camber: (-2.2 / -2.2 / -1.5 to -.5)
Toe: (0.05 / 0.05 / 0 to .16)

Rear Right (Actual/Before/Specified Range):
Camber: (-2.5 / -2.5 / -1.5 to -.5)
Toe: (-0.11 / -0.11 / 0 to .16)

Rear (Actual/Before/Specified Range):
Cross Camber: (0.3 / 0.3 / -.8 to .8)
Total Toe: (-0.05 / -0.06 / 0 to .31)
Thrust Angle: (0.08 / 0.08 / -- )

I felt uneasy about the fix so while I agreed to it at first, I later declined and just went on my way (paying for the tire install). They wanted $135 for each side (parts), plus labor. While I was at the shop, I actually used one of their guest computers and found TSB 06-007.

I've read a few of the other threads here regarding the rear camber. I see that a TSB exists and my car falls under the VIN range. However, my car is a 2005 TSX with about 58,000 miles. I know I am outside warranty range. How are TSB's handled? Is it likely a dealer would still do the work as goodwill? I have never taken my car to a dealer for TSB's, even that one recall we actually got a letter for last year (? someone remind me what that was again).

I know I could buy this part elsewhere, (ie Mr Heeltoe), but what would I do with it? I have an Acura mechanic I trust but he does not do alignment work and possibly not suspension either. If he did and was able to install it, wouldn't I still need to take it to a tire/alignment shop to have it dialed in? The guy at the shop was ok with me changing my mind but obviously you can tell he was unhappy and a bit aggressive. I don't know how he would react if I just showed up a few weeks later miraculously with this new part and asked him to align my car.

Obviously I don't really know much about cars or what the camber/toe affects. If I stated something that doesn't make sense or you need more clarification, please let me know.

Any help would greatly be appreciated.

SoCaliTrojan

TSBs are instructions for techs so that they can resolve common issues. Depending on the TSB, they may or may not be covered under warranty (for example, if it involves something that wears out naturally). We're not even supposed to have access to TSB information (Honda blocks their release to the public), so the TSBs we find have been leaked by techs.

You can ask the dealer for goodwill service, but it's up to the dealer. Sometimes they'll flat out decline to help you out, and other times they'll offer to pay for half of the parts (while you pay the other half and labor).

The recall is the power steering hose recall. The hose can leak and possibly cause a fire. Recalls are free because they are safety issues.

I haven't looked at the TSB, but I imagine any shop should be able to swap the parts for you.

The toe settings should be zeroed out or else your tires will wear unevenly. There are forum members here that have negative camber, but since they keep their toe at or close to zero, their tires last longer (toe seems to have more an effect on tire wear than camber). The alignment guy probably saw the toe and wanted to fix it so that you won't come back to complain about your new tires wearing out.

sygyzy

Are you taking about zeroing out the toe settings for the fronts or rear? Is it possible to make this adjustment without buying a part? I thought I heard him say they needed the part for the camber that was out of spec in the rear.

How bad are my numbers? Do I need to get the part and if so, is the Ingalls Rear Camber Kit the appropriate one I should get? If I get my shop to install it, will I still need to go get it adjusted? My mechanic does not have an alignment machine as far as I know.

SoCaliTrojan

You should zero it all out. Toe is a measurement of the wheels pointing inward or outward. When it is off, the tires are sort of going sideways (imagine walking forward by sliding your feet, but your toes aren't pointed straight ahead). He should be able to adjust the toe setting without modifying the suspension. As for camber, it is not adjustable in a stock suspension...you will need a camber kit to do that.

The camber in the rear should be -1.0. Your settings are beyond that. Are you lowered? Anyway, some people drive with the same amount of camber, but they don't have issues because the toe is zeroed out. If you want to fix your camber, you will need a camber kit (which makes camber adjustable, and depending on which kit you get, may help adjust the toe I believe). Whoever does an alignment on your car will be the one to adjust it so that it brings your camber into spec (you might want to keep the instructions in a glove compartment in case you go to an alignment person who only knows stock suspensions and doesn't know how to adjust a camber kit).

Your toe numbers are pretty bad. The limit is .08, and your toe is at .80. That's like 10 times off the maximum recommended limit. It will make your front tires wear out quicker. It's interesting how one side is negative and the other side is positive (they're pointing in the same direction by a close amount). Is your steering wheel straight, or do you need it move it slightly to one side to go straight?

At the very least, try to get your toe zeroed out so that you don't have uneven tire wear. It's more important than your camber settings. If you want to fix your camber at the same time (so that you don't need to get two alignments), go ahead and get a camber kit. The Ingalls camber kit is the preferred kit (I have it myself). It's the one that is easier to install, and it allows for slight toe adjustments.

sygyzy

Thanks for your help SoCaliTrojan. I have some questions

1. [Remember this is all new to me] Based on the numbers I provided, is it possible for an alignment shop to zero out the toe? I see what you mean by it being really out of spec, particularly the front left. Then again, we are still talking under 1 degree here right? 0.08 vs 0.83. Since I am not familiar with toe spec ranges or what is conceivable to correct, I'd need your help. Would I need a part to correct the toe?

I am asking because the guy at the shop never even spoke of the toe as a separate issue. He made it seem like to fix everything I needed this piece of hardware. If I went to another shop and asked them to fix the toe, would they be able to do that?

2. How "bad" exactly are my toe and camber issues? I know you said toe is more important than camber for wear but I see red letters on the printout and it seems terrible but it seems you are suggesting it's not that bad.

3. How do you explain the negative (front left) versus positive (front right) toe differences? What might be the cause? Are there any effects here besides tire wear I may not be aware of?

5. Would the camber kit's adjustment range be large enough to cover what I need in the rear?

6. Would a shop know recognize the camber kit and know what to do with it? Sorry if this is a silly question.

The car is stock. It is not lowered. It's running Yoko AVID's in back and Yoko ENVigor in front with stock sizes. Rims are factory.

Simba91102

Let's look at these questions one at a time.

1. The front toe (both wheels) is not horrible (the total toe isn't that far off, and you said that the car drives OK), but it should be adjusted. Since the the range is -.8 to .8, that means that ideally, the toe should be set at 0 (the exact middle of the range). This isn't always achievable though do to wear, productions variations, etc. But.... the front suspension is adjustable for toe, so there should be no problem bringing both wheels into if not ideal spec, at least within the range. You don't need any additional parts to do this. Now..... when you make any adjustments to one thing (the toe for instance), as a rule, it throws everything else off too. So once you adjust the toe, the readings for caster and camber will change. This is normal..... and just part of the alignment process. A good alignment tech will find a happy medium, in spec, between all three readings (I won't go into caster.... it's another whole post).

2. As I stated above, your front wheels are not that bad and should be easily brought into spec. In the rear, the left wheel toe is actually within spec, though the right toe is off. The rear suspension is adjustable for toe (assuming the adjustment bolts aren't frozen) and should be able to be brought into spec. The rear camber is not adjustable though both sides of your car are pretty far off. But..... this isn't the end of the world. As long as the toe can be adjusted to within spec, the camber issue is a small one (and doesn't necessarily need to be addressed). As stated elsewhere in the thread, the ideal camber spec is -.1. It seems that we have member cars showing up (here) with camber specs similar to yours (pretty far off). I'm surprised that production tolerances were/are so far off, but there's really no other explanation (aside from possible accident damage). And again...... as long as the toe can remain in spec..... it shouldn't really matter.

3. The adjustments being off are just part of daily driving and not unusual (think potholes, manhole covers, etc.). Think about how the front suspension has to do it's job, and it should come as no surprise that things are going to get banged around a little. Having an alignment performed once a year (say it the spring here in the Northeast for instance. Winter is tough on an alignment) is probably a good practice.

4. Ooops.... no #4

5. A camber kit has plenty of adjustment built in, that's what it's for. Part of the attraction of the kit is that it provides a wide range of adjustment. Some who modify their car want or need to run extreme settings. The Ingalls kit for instance replaces two control arms on each side (in the rear) that allow adjustment of the camber and the toe (as I stated above, adjust one and you'll throw off the other). The one that replaces the OE arm that provides toe adjustment allows a much wider range.

6. Not all alignment shops are familiar with aftermarket suspension pieces. You could perhaps get a reference here, or call around, or what I did was I used the Tire Rack's installer database (Tirerack.com) to find a shop that is competent in aftermarket suspension work.

All that said..... I wouldn't worry too much about your rear camber issues. I'd find another alignment shop (one that won't insist on selling you something) and just have the car aligned. You shouldn't really need anything to have that done. Yes...... you know that the rear camber settings are off substantially, but the toe should still be able to be brought into spec (one wheel already is). If I were you, I'd go to an Acura dealer. They can tell you more about the alignment issues that your car might have (and you could put them on the spot about the rear camber). We can just kind of go with generic advice here.

itsmygame

reason I'm here for info. Just got back from Acura dealer yesterday. He said my camber is off on right rear. Wanted $350 to install aftermarket part and get aligned. Reading this stuff is great. I'll buy it and install myself then take back to save some cash. There is a dealer on ebay selling an updated acura control arm to take care of this problem. I am going to find out more.

SoCaliTrojan

OP, sorry, the forums didn't mark your thread in bold (indicating new replies), so I didn't see your questions. I agree with Simba's responses.

itsmygame, welcome to the boards. I'm glad we were able to help you out. If you have any questions, please feel free to ask.

sygyzy

Sorry to bump this but I never ended up getting the alignment fix and it's causing problems with wear (no surprise, my fault entirely). I am afraid of going back or to a different shop and having them claim I need these $135 (x 2) "adjustment bars" to be able to correct my alignment. Can anyone guess what this part might be? My friends haven't heard of any such part that costs this much, to fix alignment.

Second question - if camber isn't a big issue, would it be possible to ask the shop to fix my toe as much as possible but leave camber? I just feel like I am in a tough spot because a year ago the shop made it sound like they wouldn't even touch my car without the $270 worth of parts.

Simba91102

I reread this thread (and my response in particular). Wow, I must have felt pretty generous (and/or had a bunch of time on my hands) to write all of that. I see that I was pretty far off as far as the front toe was concerned; I obviously moved the decimal point in my mind (surprised no one picked that up. Guess guys aren't paying as much attention as we'd like). There are a couple of different set ups available to make the rear suspension (and the front for that matter) more adjustable. I favor the Ingalls kit because it's the easiest to install in my opinion (the others involve breaking open the rear ball joints). All that said, if I were you, I would just try to address the toe issues, front and rear. But.... that may be easier said than done. The front camber was in spec (though this was almost 2 years ago now), but the toe was/is way off, and I assume this is what's responsible for eating up your tires. The rear camber is/was pretty far off (why is a separate issue), though the left rear toe was within spec, and right rear toe out of the range. You'll see the effects of this (too much toe) with tire wear on the inside or outside edge of the tires. The excess camber will/does effect the ability to bring the rear toe into compliance. The OE adjustment for rear toe is pretty rudimentary, and doesn't allow too much adjustment. As I stated earlier, adjust one, and it will effect the other. My guess is that the excess rear camber disallows the ability to bring the rear toe into spec. The rear Ingalls kit (and the others) allow a wide range of adjustment of both toe and camber, and this is obviously why they've been recommended. In front, I'd just ask to have the toe brought as close to ideal as possible. Same for the rear, though with your camber specs, that may not be possible. I once again advise using an Acura (or Honda) dealer for your alignment to try and get the thing straightened out, and if they can't, find out why (the suspension is OE right?).

I'm having a similar problem with the left front wheel of my 05, though I'm lowered. It doesn't seem to want to adjust into the range, with the results being the tire I just took off when I did my winter switch over was worn down to the cord on the inside. I'll continue to chase it, though it's aggravating since the car drives perfectly (arrow straight at triple digit speeds, no pull what so ever, and heavy braking shows no pull either).

These cars (TSX, TL too) have developed a bit of a reputation (along with Accords) for having some alignment issues (according to the shop I use). Again, it wouldn't be a big deal since it appears that the cars often seem to drive and handle fine, but eating up the tires sucks.

sygyzy

Hi Simba,

Thank you so much for replying. I cannot stress how grateful I am for your help. I just picked up my car and they did an alignment for me. This time they didn't claim I needed any extra parts and they didn't charge me for the alignment. The installed the new tires on the front and swapped the fronts to rear. Here are the new numbers:

Here are the numbers:

(All in degrees, Acura TSX 2004-08)

Front Left (Actual/Before/Specified Range):
Camber: (0.3 / 0.3 / -.8 to .8)
Caster: (2.1 / 2.1 / 2.5 to 4.0)
Toe: (0.00 / -0.20 / -.08 to .08)

Front Right (Actual/Before/Specified Range):
Camber: (-0.3 / -0.3 / -.8 to .8)
Caster: (2.9 / 2.9 / 2.5 to 4.0)
Toe: (0.02 / 0.10 / -.08 to .08)

Front (Actual/Before/Specified Range):
Cross Camber: (0.6 / 0.6 / -.8 to .8)
Cross Caster: (-0.7 / -0.7 / -.8 to .8)
Total Toe: (0.02 / -0.09 / -.16 to .16)

-----------------------------------------

Rear Left (Actual/Before/Specified Range):
Camber: (-2.5 / -2.5 / -1.5 to -.5)
Toe: (0.04 / 0.03 / 0 to .16)

Rear Right (Actual/Before/Specified Range):
Camber: (-1.9 / -1.9 / -1.5 to -.5)
Toe: (-0.11 / -0.23 / 0 to .16)

Rear (Actual/Before/Specified Range):
Cross Camber: (-0.5 / -0.6 / -.8 to .8)
Total Toe: (0.16 / -0.21 / 0 to .31)
Thrust Angle: (0.08 / 0.08 / -- )

Things look much better right? Do I still need any sort of kit for adjustment? Speaking of, can you give me the exact name or model number of the Ingalls kit? I went to their website, looked up my car and clicked on alignment and found three pages full of parts. I have no idea what the "ingalls kit" is.

Is it this one?

Thanks!

Simba91102

You definitely look good to go now. Quite a difference from the numbers generated the last time. I don't think you need any further adjustment (or new suspension pieces to assist in same). You can live with the excess rear camber, it shouldn't make any difference in tire wear or how the car handles. I'll dig up the model and/or part numbers of the appropriate Ingalls rear kit for you for future reference though (but not tonight).

sygyzy

Thank you very much Simba91102. You are truly the king of the jungle.