toddly03

Ever since I have owned my TSX (which I LOVE) it has "pinged". Just about EVERY tank-full, at one point or another, it will ping. Any thoughts?
I have taken it in a few timesto the dealership, and had the Master Mechanic drive with me and HE heard it a few times. He hooked up the computer thing-a-ma-bob and recorded the vitals in the engine when it pinged and sent the info to "Acura Tech-Line", or something like that, and they said NOTHING showed irregularities or problems. I have used gas from Northern to Southern California and it still does it. It pretty much only does it when I am in sport-shift mode and I am on a hill where the car is under load , typically 2nd-3rd gear but not always. I now have around 12,000 miles on it. Anyone have any suggestions? I would think it would be just something you could just dial-in....but I think these new motors with all the different sensors are not like that.

Please help me figure this out. It is a "buzz-kill" with the car...and I just LOVE my TSX! I have a lot of respect for so many of the people on here who have such a broad knowledge base on care...unfortunately, I do not. So, pretty much a bonehead when it comes to this stuff. Golf is another story! ;o)

Thanks in advance

bigwilliestyle

Do you buy your gas from a major chain, or from one of those small "discount" places?

toddly03

I always get it from a SHELL or CHEVRON or 76. Unfortunately, we only get 91 octane here as well.

ClutchPerformer

And what octane are you using?

Viking

Haven't heard the pinging sound problem before. Sounds like bad gas. Maybe try another brand. There was a thread about different octanes:

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...ghlight=Octane

sauceman

I'd gladly provide you with some of my knowledge about the TSX and cars in general, in exchange with a good golf course!

toddly03

Sauceman,

You a golfer too? I am an instructor. Wish i new as much about my TSX as I do the golfswing! What are your thoughts on an Injen CAI for my Automatic/sport-shift? Is it true you lose power at low rev's.......anyway to get around it?

Viking

Here is some more info I came across:

PREVENTING DETONATION

One way to reduce the risk of detonation is to use a higher octane fuel.

If switching to a premium grade of gasoline fails to eliminate your detonation problem, it means something else is amiss. The causes of detonation include anything that raises combustion temperatures or pressures, or anything that leans out the air/fuel mixture. These include:

Too much compression. An accumulation of carbon deposits in your engine's combustion chambers, on piston tops and valves can increase compression to the point where it causes detonation and/or preignition. To get rid of the deposits, pour a can of "top cleaner" down the carburetor while the engine is idling (follow the directions). Allow the chemical to soak the recommended period of time, then restart the engine to blow out the deposits.

Over-advanced ignition timing. Too much spark advance causes cylinder pressure to rise too rapidly. Check and adjust the ignition timing as needed.

Defective knock sensor. Most late model computer controlled engines have a knock sensor that detects vibrations caused by detonation when the engine is under load. When the knock sensor hears the pistons rattling, it signals the computer to momentarily retard ignition timing a certain number of degrees until the knocking goes away. But if the knock sensor is defective, no spark retard will occur.

Loss of EGR. Exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) has a cooling effect on combustion temperatures because it dilutes the incoming mixture with inert exhaust gas. By keeping combustion temperatures under 1500 degrees, the formation of oxides of nitrogen (NOX) are reduced. If the EGR valve is inoperative or someone has disconnected it or plugged the EGR vacuum hose, combustion temperatures will run much higher likely resulting in detonation when the engine is under load.

Engine overheating. A hot engine is more likely to suffer spark knock when it is under load than one which runs at normal temperature. Overheating can be caused by a low coolant level, a defective fan clutch, too small a fan, the wrong thermostat or a stuck thermostat, a weak water pump, a buildup of deposits in the radiator or cooling system, a bad fan clutch or electric cooling fan that doesn't work.

Lean fuel mixture. Rich fuel mixtures resist detonation while lean ones do not. Air leaks in vacuum lines, intake manifold gaskets, carburetor or throttle body gaskets, or fuel injector O-rings can admit extra air into the engine and lean out the fuel mixture. Lean mixtures can also be caused by dirty fuel injectors, dirty carburetor jets, or low fuel pressure.

Wrong spark plugs. The wrong "heat range" (too hot) can cause detonation as well as preignition.

toddly03

Thank you for the info. That was really nice!

Viking

No prob

Just be sure to keep us updated.

toddly03

Will do!

Fibonacci

I just noticed this today for the first time - I own an 04 5AT. I always use 93 Octane, usually from BP. Have 12,700 miles....as I accelerated into higher rpm the pinging started. Happened once when the engine was cold and another time when the engine was hot...only heard under hard acceleration.

WTF! Gonna take it to the dealership soon...

Viking

Just remember this problem is usually a result of bad gas. Just because the gas station says 93 Octane it doesn't mean its not tainted. This why you should go to gas stations you trust and not just by brand. It is not always the brand at fault, but the owner of the individual gas station. Here is a link to a thread about finding water in the 93 Octane gas:

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18098

sauceman

Yes, I golf, but my score card is very shameful. But I always have a very good time though.

I've never seen evidence anywhere that the Injen would rob you some power in the low to mid-range.

Domn could tell you more for the combo CAI/AT, but I think it's gonna work about just as well as on a 6MT, since most of the gains are in the upper rev range.

Fibonacci

Viking - thanks for the link. I'm thinking it could be because I filled up one day when it was raining like a mofo.... I'll run some drygas thru and see what happens - didn't step hard on the throttle today because the roads in Motown were icy.

VeniceBeachTSX

Actually, water in the gas WON'T cause pinging. The presence of water effectively leans out the mixture and slows combustion possibly to the point where no combustion will take place at all. (Some WWII-era aircraft engines actually used water injection, as well as 130 octane fuel, to prevent detonation for brief periods of unusually high power output. Roughness when you have water in the tank is not detonation, it is usually the exact opposite -- combustion in some cylinders doesn't happen at all, or happens unevenly, or with poor results. Water in the fuel is bad, but not because it causes pinging.

The most dangerous situation (and the one that is most commonly used to test engines for appropriate octane levels) is when you're "slogging" the engine -- running in too high a gear for the conditions. The solution is usually quite simple, you downshift and let the engine operate at a more optimal RPM/power setting.

More on how they test: http://www.repairfaq.org/filipg/AUTO...l#GASOLINE_007 They specifically look for low-speed, high-gear, high-power combinations as being likely candidates for causing detonation.

IMO, our engines tend to favor higher RPMs than many others out there.

Viking

Thanks for the additional info Venice

I was using that other thread as an example to indicate how gas stations may have problems with their gas tanks and even though it says 93 Octane at the pump it could be an inferior grade or tainted. Just recommending members to go to gas stations they have used from experience to be reputable and not just go by the brand name.

Fibonacci

Very interesting - I ran some dry gas thru, it's no longer pinging, but my engine seems to have lost a bit of power in the higher rpm ranges above 4k.

iamhomin

But who in the world slogs their engine by being in 5th gear @25 mph?

JTso

iTrader: (2)

Have you taken out the spark plugs to examine the condition?

Depends on the condition of the plugs, the next step would be monitor the fuel pressure to determine if you have a weak fuel pump or fuel pressure regulator. If that check out fine, then the next step is to test the injector spray patterns and flow rates.

CivicEx1998

I also experienced Pinging on mine, but mine is a Euro R (Im In Asia).
The TSX doesnt run that high of compression so i doubt the gas is the problem for u guys.
Two of mine friends with EURO R run 98 Ron gas with no pinging but it only ping on mine. I have tried different gas too, colder plugs, but with no results. I am thinking that it could be something else. Maybe defective knock sensor?
Unfortunetly, there is no engine light to inform me if that part is mulfunction or anyother parts are mulfunctioning.

toddly03

What is dry gas?

Viking

Fuel additive to help remove water from your gas tank.

toddly03

I think I might try that......get it at Kragen or similar? Thanks!

dcrc

Might try using one of these

http://www.mrfunnel.com/


People on other forums (motorcycle, tractor, etc...) speak highly of them.

Bass Mechanic

has anyone bothered to check to see if the Knock Sensor is faulty? if the knock sensor doesnt effectivly detect the pinging it wont attempt to retard the timing.
the whole purpose of this device is to ensure pinging doesnt happen even if you run low octain fuel.
it would also have a proformance effect on the engine as you said you were having if the timing is not advanced or retarted like its supposed to do by itself.
you should ask the tech if he could test that sensor. if it turnes out to be the problem i would no longer take my car to that dealer for service. that would have been the most obvious and first thing to check. if he missed it he probly shouldnt be working on Fuel Injected cars

majin ssj eric

I don't understand what detonation means. Isn't the fuel supposed to detonate to power the engine?

Bass Mechanic

it would make a little more sence if they said it correctly it should be "predetonation" meaning the spark ignites the fuel a little too soon before the piston hits TDC. if the piston is not in a position to actually move down on the power stroke its like hitting it with a hammer with a thud!

Viking

should have defined detonation for purposes of this thread.

Here is a link to some of the info I came across: http://www.streetrodstuff.com/Articl...ion/Page_2.php

dcrc

Has the dealer tried replacing any parts at all?

If they havn't I would reccomend finding another dealer that takes this serious.

Since you said it has done it from day one.

I would consider a bad CPS (cam position sensor) or pickup . What ever this engine use as a reference for timing.

I would change the spark plugs with OEM replacements.

You could have one defective. If you have a meter you could check there resistance to see if you have one going south.

Same for the spark plug wires.

Open the hood at night at see of you have any stray sparks or "leakage".

Bass Mechanic

more likely to be knock sensor since it adjusts the timing, a bad cam sensor or crank sensor would cause fuel injection timing problems and irradic or no engine running at all.

dcrc

A knock sensor should retard the timing to prevent detonation, but not all motors have them.


My view is if the knock sensor has to retard the timing your loosing power and that is not a good thing.

Sure I would check the knock sensor. But I would also want to know what is causing the ping in the first place.

If fuel, air and spark are correct there won't be a knock or pinging.

THe ECM read the CPS for injector pulse width and crankshaft reference for base timing. If the base timing is off so will be the total timing.

VeniceBeachTSX

Nope, two different problems that you're trying to combine into one. Both will create a pinging noise, but they are different problems:

* Pre-ignition. Caused by the fuel igniting prior to the spark. This usually occurs in situations of high temperatures, high pressures, or too low an octane. It causes the pressure to rise in the cylinder far quicker than it should and creates a pinging noise. It does not necessarily require detonation, as defined below.

* Detonation. Caused when the fuel burns explosively rather than smoothly. The causes can be similar to pre-ignition, however in this case the fuel is ignited by the spark, it's the burn pattern that is screwey.

In practice, either of these conditions when unchecked will tend to lead to the other, because both will ultimately cause high pressures and temperatures, which exacerbates the problem. Severe detonation (as defined by SAE) almost always involves a combination of detonation and pre-ignition. Severe detonation can destroy an engine in under a minute.

Incidentally, the spark ALWAYS fires before top dead center. In a properly tuned engine, the flame takes a bit of time to spread outward from the spark, and the pressure builds gradually. The spark is ideally timed so that maximum pressure in the cylinder will coincide with the middle of the downstroke when the piston has maximum leverage on the crankshaft. So long as the fuel burns steadily and pressure builds gradually the way it is supposed to, this is just fine. The spark fires shortly before TDC (usually 20-25 degrees) but by the time things are really cooking in the cylinder, TDC is past.

Spark timing is a delicate balance: If the spark fires too soon, significant pressure builds that holds the piston back and generates unnecessary heat and pressure. If it fires too late, the combustion isn't done until late in the power stroke or even after the power stroke is over, meaning energy is wasted. In either case, power is lost.

sauceman

He'd get a CEL code for that sort of problem.

vonarx

By the way did you check the spark plugs are of the right temperature, if not the go one step colder plugs. It may solve you problem

Regards
Vonarx