npolite

I'm up for my 3 year brake fluid change. While I have done it in the past I'm wondering if I should get the dealer to do it. If I do it myself I'll probably get most of it with the exception of the ABS module. Back in my Integra you could hook up a hose to that and pump the old fluid out of it. What I have been seeing you need a $500 device in order to do this with the TSX and all new Hondas. I had the module fail in my Integra but not sure if it was the lack of changes that caused it before I owned it. Should I have the dealer do this or should I just do it on my own?

I would appreciate any comments one way or the other on this.

Nick

silverbullitt

Dealer will rape your wallet- use standard fluid- and not a guarantee it will be done right- or the best way...Find a local mechanic who is recommended by word of mouth,( highly recommended- no butchers or parts changers..) purchase the highest temp dot 4 brake fluid ( check specs to make sure it is not DOT 5 - and verify specs are compatible with owners manual guidelines), highest wet boiling temp, ( valvoline synpower used to make great stuff, castrol LMA made good stuff, may be able to buy private label brands ( Amsoil, Redline, etc ) this might take a little longer now- but it will pay off in long run..

Hanneman

I thought that the combined VSA-ABS module circulates the fluid through the conventional brake system under normal operation. The Helm's manual (pg 19-34) states that the bleeding procedure is the same whether the vehicle is equipped with VSA or not.

npolite

Silverbullitt, not every dealership will rape you as long as you know what you need done. I haven't had one issue with the few things that I get done with a dealership. It isn't the closest to me but they haven't given me any problems.

As far as the Honda DOT3, this has also never given me problems. I have also used the Valvoline synthetic in my Accord and had to replace one caliper already because of a leak. I change the fluid religiously every 3 years. Could it been a fluke, that is possible.

m3nate

This is an easy job with little room for error and i would recommend cycling your fluid yourself as it is a big money saver.

To answer the earlier comment: fluid is cycled through the ABS module and down to the calipers and there is no need to bleed the ABS module separately. All you need to do is bleed at the 4 10mm bleeder valves on the calipers starting with the RR (farthest away from the reservoir) and cycling toward it.

The biggest risk to this job, assuming you have the right tools, is:

1. stripping a bleeder screw...be gentle as they are aluminum and small
2. running the reservoir too low on fluid and introducing more air....just keep it topped up.

A dry day is best as brake fluid is very hygroscopic and you dont want to get moisture into the system.

npolite

m3nate,

You might want to review the bleeding procedure as it starts with the driver front first.

Driver front --> passenger front --> passenger rear --> driver rear.

npolite

The way I've done this in the past is to pump the peddle 5 times and hold pressure on the brake peddle while releasing the bleeder valve. Then repeating.

Eric the car guy does it by releasing the valve and pumping it repeatedly. I guess as long as you have a sealed system with the brake fluid at the bottom of your bottle this would be possible?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5O_pbC8R2E

npolite

Also would something like a vacuum pump make the job go faster? Also how much psi would you need?

http://www.sears.com/mityvac-automot...1&blockType=G1

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/web...007#fragment-3

Simba91102

I totally agree on both points. I trust my dealer, and Honda brake fluid is more than adequate for street duty. Plus, though for the most part, I do all the maintenance myself, the brake fluid change is one job that I'm happy to let the dealer handle (once every 3 years? not a problem...). As with $1K brake packages and UHP summer tires, I think some guys (OK, and a probably a few gals) lose sight of the fact that as much as they'd like to think otherwise, they're not driving some super duper high performance car; like it or not, it's a grocery getter and that should be kept in mind when talk turns to replacement parts and fluids.

npolite

So I bought the Mityvac from Sears and can't say I am impressed by it in any way. While I was building up pressure and it maintained it, there were a lot of air bubbles being generated which means that the parts they have me didn't make a good seal at the bleeder. In the back on the Accord I have drums and it really didn't pull out that much fluid with this device.

I had to afterwards do it the old fasioned way and have my father pump, hold while I removed some fluid 5 times to be sure. It did help speed up the process though as the pump and hold method takes forever and pulls very little fluid out at a time.

Everything went well on the Accord. Not sure if I will use this tool on my TSX when I do it on Friday. May actually just pay to have it done since it took me about an hour and a half.

A person from the DA forum posted the Mightyvac but this model is the one used with a air compressor. You can still see air in the tube.

npolite

I went through the brake fluid change today using the two person process. The mighty hand pump doesn't work very well. At least it's done for another three years.

npolite

I may have introduced some air using that mighty vac. It may be in my head but I think I lost the initial bite I had before the fluid change. I don't need to press any harder to stop though I think something may not be right (or may be in my head). I was using 1/4" plastic tubing. I was getting one tiny bubble every few openings but I thought maybe that was just from the tube. Could it be possible that there is air in system even though I didn't get any major bubbles coming out after 5-6 openings per caliper? Is there a better device to hook up to the bleeder to ensure a better seal when opening up the bleeder?

Question: I had my helper pump 4-5 times and hold down, after which I opened the valve. Is this correct or do I need to first open the valve and then have them press down?

npolite

I just pulled the Helms manual up and it states the following:

Have someone slowly pump the brake pedal several times, then apply steady pressure.

Starting at the left front, loosen the brake bleed screw to allow air to escape from the system. Then tighten the bleed screw securely.

I might re-do all of the lines once more on Monday after I get another bottle of brake fluid from my Honda dealer.

Simba91102

From what you've described in earlier posts, it sounds like this would be a good plan; you may indeed still have air in the system. You're more ambitious than I it appears, and I wish I wanted to do this job more. But judging by your experiences as shared here, I think I'll stick with my preference for letting the dealer take care of this.

pimpin-tl

Motive bleeder is a life saver. Get one.

npolite

I'm guessing the 1101 (kit 0101) is what fits on the TSX? How much psi did you use?


I'm debating if I should just tell the dealer that I changed the fluid and ask them to bleed the brakes (and hopefully won't be dinged over the cost of a fluid change) or if I should try round 2.

pimpin-tl

I actually need to get a adapter for my Acura now. But the Nissan one is what I used on all my Nissan vehicles. But I pushed it up to around 30 psi then go hit the 4 corners.

pimpin-tl

https://acurazine.com/forums/1g-rdx-diy-faq-161/diy-pressure-bleeding-brakes-775757/

npolite

Thanks for the link.

Hanneman

I recently performed the 2-person bleed method in pretty much the same manner. I placed a scrap 2x4 between the pedal and floor to prevent any potential damage to the master cylinder - something I read somewhere and decided to err on the side of caution. The assistant would apply light pressure to the pedal, then I opened the bleeder screw. When the pedal reached the board, the fluid flow slowed significantly, and I closed the bleeder screw before the assistant released the pedal. Rinse, repeat.

I debated using a pressure bleeder over a vacuum bleeder. One alternative approach for the pressure bleeder was to use the "pesticide sprayer" to only apply pressure at the master cylinder and not supply fluid. Here, you can avoid any problems if the reservoir overflows (for whatever reason). The downside is that you have to disassemble the reservoir cap apparatus to add fluid.

npolite

I bled the brakes again today. I only got maybe two pin sized bubbles from the drivers front/rear. I let around 4 inches of fluid at a time and repeated this 5 times. Something still doesn't feel right. Is it possible that there is still air in the system, or could I have damaged the master cylinder?

I think I may ask to have it looked at when I bring the inspection in and just say I used a vacuum bleeder to change the fluid and see what they think. Not sure what else I can do at this point.

Hanneman

In my completely non-professional opinion (based on my limited experience with the old Buick Powermaster system), I would expect a significant loss in braking power if you damaged the master cylinder. From what you describe as loss of initial bite, I doubt you damaged any of the seals in the master cylinder.

After bleeding, my pedal still has a small initial dead-zone (approximately 0.25" to 0.5" of pedal travel) before you can really feel the car braking. My fluid was more than 4 years old, so the flush yielded a noticeable improvement.

npolite

What I am noticing is more that it seems the rear pads are now kicking in with that .25" press which makes it feels like it is spongy as before it was more of an even distribution.

After I bled the brakes yesterday I noticed a great bite but then as I started driving around it went back to the way it was.

Simba91102

I wonder if there is air trapped somewhere in the ABS system? The potential for this (and just the complications presented by its' presence) is mainly what has kept me from attempting this job myself. I read something once that made me think that this job is something better left to those who know what's involved (because of the ABS system). It's most likely me being lazy and overly cautious, but it's a thought you might want to consider.

npolite

It's possible. I know that there is a device that the techs are supposed (if they do is another story) to use in order to activate it while they are changing the fluid. I don't know if this is mandatory but it isn't written in the Helm's manual at least with the bleeding procedure.

I've learned my lesson for now, just need to get everything sorted.

npolite

So the update from the dealer is blah...there is no issue. They do recommend new rotors because of the deposits on the existing ones. I told them I would do that at the next brake change (when I swap them out with Hawks). I did bleed the brakes one last time with my dad but just the front and they did feel better. I'll need to do all again one last time and we should be as good as it gets.

Chad05TL

You said they felt better, but did you get any air out? Can you confirm there was air in the system? Or were you possibly imagining it? Sometimes its hard to tell.. I mean, how do you tell if you have air in the lines anyway? If the system is closed, then I don't understand how air can get it in, but I guess it does somehow?

separately, I have the same issue as Hanneman. I have this "dead zone" at the top of my pedal. It seems more than any of my previous cars over the years. So, I don't know if air is in the system or not. How do you tell?

If I do not have air in the system then I can just siphon out the old fluid and add new. I bought Speed Bleeders and a bag with a tube, but I have not installed them yet. I'm somewhat apprehensive to cracking the system open.. ya know? haha only 1 guy here.

By the way, on Heel-Toe, they don't even say to use 2 people or a special purchased "one man system" tool.. http://www.heeltoeauto.com/tech-arti...shouting..html

And the 2nd post on this page says, just a tube is all you need https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-2004-2008-93/speed-bleeders-type-s-849486/

Chad05TL

I just siphoned out my fluid and it is not clear but its not black either. I thought it would be black since I have not touched the brakefluid since I owned the car. I got it at 35k miles and it now has 68k miles. So, since I cannot verify I have air in the lines, and since someone said this fluid will get circulated through the system, then I just added new. Later I can play with my speed bleeders if I think something is wrong, like air in the lines. I only have 1 car and I don't want to get stranded this weekend if there is not air in the lines.. And it drives ok now. Just seems like there is a little travel off the top of the brake pedal, but not a lot. Just more than I like for a high performance car, like a Camaro. But this is a sedan. not Hi PO. So this may be a characteristic of the car. I don't know. Either way, there is no need to jack with the bleeding at this juncture. Just evacate and replace is good enough. Took 10 minutes. If I do it again later, no worries. Easy. and quick

Simba91102

I find your post confusing, and I'm not quite sure what your point is. Brake fluid doesn't particularly "wear out", but it does absorb moisture over time and that's why it should be replaced every three years or so. Feel free to fool around with plastic bottles, pumps, siphons, whatever. Just replaced the friggin fluid, bleed the system and be done with it. So many (here and elsewhere) seem to thrive on trying to either build a better mousetrap, or tying to reinvent the wheel. And we won't get into trying fix things (and procedures) that aren't broken.

npolite

Chad,

As Simba mentioned, brake fluid i something that absorbs moisture which is why you need to change it every 3 years as water will corrode the insides of the caliper and brake lines.

I have that same dead zone from which feels like 1/2" which wasn't there before I bled the brakes. I'm going to do it one more time either tomorrow or this week to see what happens. Something still doesn't feel the same which is why I can only think air is trapped somewhere. If your assistant lets go of the brake pedal before you close the bleeder valve, air can get into the system from the threads of the valve which is why they must not let you until the person at the valve says so.

I could be in my mind (and it's a possibility that I am crazy).

Chad05TL

Anyway.. I did fine. No need to bleed. If I didn't get all the fluid by siphoning and replacing the resorvior, then I can do it again in a few months. No need to bleed because as you said the fluid doesn't wear out and I have no reason to believe air is in the system and the fluid circulates through the brake lines so what I possibly missed this time will be cotton next time. The transmission gets fluid mixed .. that's how we change it according to this forum so what is more costly? A transmission or brake lines? Also if this car has gone 7 yrs with the smae fluid and they still work fine then I think I will be fine for as long as the car runs. Get mad if you want but if I bleed the brakes I stand a chance at having some crappy brakes if I get air in the system. So no. No point. Too much risk for no gain. Just siphon and replace the fluid. Safer.. faster.. easier.. and less to risk, like having to take your car to a pro to have him fix it.

Now, if you have squishy brakes then yes I would bleed them. But I don't. Any dead spot at the.top is somewhat normal I think. Beside its not really dead because I can feel the brakes grab even though it doesn't stop the car. So, I think its just a design issue and therefore nothing is wrong with my brakes other than needing new fluid and I am doing it... The easy and sure way and no risk way. I don't want to be in npolites shoes. I have 1 car, and family lives in another town and friends are a pain to ask certain favors like pumping my brakes! Haha so funny. Id rather take it in to have a dude work on my car than ask a friend to pump my brakes .. anyway! To each their own!

Chad05TL

Ya know, i don't know if I am imagining it or not, but I just got done running at the lake and my brakes already feel more responsive at the top. Hm.. I like it. I think maybe in afew months I might do the siphon and refill again. Thats all I need

npolite

Chad,

Refilling just the resovoir won't get the gunk out of the lines (it doesn't work like the transmission fluid). You do need to flush it out at each bleeder until clear fluid comes out. If you don't want to risk anything, take it to the dealer. Trust me, it is probably easier to spend the $150 instead of dealing with "If I did it right or not"

Chad05TL

I don’t think I have any gunk in my lines because no gunk in my reservoir. All that fluid is the same because it circulates. That’s how it got dark in the reservoir, because it was circulating. So, if none in my res, then probably none in my lines. I’m running with it! Brakes feel great!
Thanks!!!

Simba91102

You're doing your best to help the uninitiated see the light, but.... as the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink....

npolite

Chad,

Yes the fluid will get dirty but the small deposits won't get out of the system by pulling it out of the top of the reservoir. Your pedal will still feel the same as it did before. The damage is long term so if you don't plan on keeping the car over 100k miles, don't bother with changing it at all.

Long term your master cylinder will fail at the seals and you will have your calipers rusting which will cause your brake pads to not wear evenly on both sides and then you'll not only need to replace the pads, but the calipers as well.

I had to do this on my Integra. The car was sitting for some time at my uncle's place (it was my cousin's) so it wasn't the ideal conditions. I ended up long term having to change the master cylinder and all calipers.

Chad05TL

Ya those were the days, right? You know you got an old car when you have to replace the master cylinder and calipers. Master cylinders don't really fail unless they are pretty old or a fluke. But I appreciate what you are saying. But I am just doing what is right for me and what I think I need to do.

But as for the uninitiated, in elementary school, the kids one day were walking around the room with a real thick book in their hands, and hitting people on the head with it. And they said, "Your initiated!" So, actually, I am initiated. Thanks though, I did find your efforts rather interesting but exhaustive. I would like to see this gunk and any tiny deposits that came out of your bleeder valve. Thats a pretty small valve I think for gunk to come out. If they are real tiny deposits, then it will come out with my evac and refill procedure. I have done it once yesterday, it took 10 minutes, and I will do it again in the coming months. I only put 3800 miles on my car in the past year, so, it may take a while.

npolite

Does anyone know when the master cylinder is damaged if it is an all or nothing sort of problem? Even after bleeding it again I am still having that 1" of a dead zone before it works ok. Might need to either try another dealership or road test it with the one I went to last week.

Chad05TL

these Brakes on the TL have a lot of travel even though they grab real hard and stop on a dime. but even then, have you tried creeping in your car at a crawl speed and slowly touched the brakes to see when you can feel even a slight braking action? I did that at a slow speed and even though it not stop the car, I did feel the pads begin to enguage. so I think mine work as they were designed. if u lived in Dallas you could come over and compare cars.

npolite

They do slow the car down in the 1" of pressing but they aren't the same as they were before. That's the issue that I've been trying to get over. I don't know if anything was adjusted before when I bought the car as a CPO.