curls

$35? Ok, this means the RSB is worth the chance, as the repair is cheeeeeeeeeap if (and that's a small-chance "if") this were to even happen.

Hell $35 doesn't even cover a tank of gas these days...

jwood_06TSX

That isn't necessarily true. First, regarding your "tacky" greese, you do have to remember that the forces that are enduced on the bar and bushings is pretty great and therefore will still move through the greese. However, the high temp lithium greese that aarong mentioned would probably be a better selection, especially due to the nature of these problems with the bar. I am an engineer as well, not exactly this type either (i specialize in bridges currently) but i really can't see how this will be a huge problem if they just stay lubricated. The endlinks have enough play in them and as long as those bushings have enough lube, the mechanics of the system should work just fine without adding a huge additional stress to the mounts.

It may have been asked or said, but did gsclifton mention anything about lube, or lack there or?

gsclifton

iTrader: (2)

I used silicon grease the day the ES poly bushings were installed. I never removed and added more grease after the initial install. However, mine were silent. I never heard any squeaking or noise period until the mount broke.

jwood_06TSX

I think its in your timeline but how long was it from the time you put the ES bushings on to the time it broke on you?

I'm just trying to help gage the whole lubrication thing cause in theory that a few of us are tentative believers in....lol


EDIT: Nevermind, went back and found it. See you installed them Sep 23, 2005 @ 25,112 miles and had it break on Feb 22, 2007 @ 44k miles. That is just about a year in a half without any additional lubrication. Humm....

Rocket_man

This is an interesting theory. When I installed my ES poly bushings I had a hard time getting the bracket to seat all the way on the mount. I hit the torque before the bracket bottomed out. Either I had a slightly thicker bar, or the bushings were a little thick, not sure, but my bushings are cranked down tight on that bar. I wonder if I should put some washers under the bracket and take some compression off the bushings?

afici0nad0

qft

Still Water

I talked with my welder buddy (he does it for a living) about this whole problem and he said it wouldn't be a problem to "beef-up" the whole area even after it broke. No biggie. Anyone with any high level of skill could do the job and even make it look real pretty (his words not mine). After doing some more research into this my question is, "Is our RSB designed to rotate within the bushing and/or move side-to-side." I don't recall anyone definitive answer to that question. Sorry if I just missed it. I'm still concerned about the load on the endlinks. Has anyone here ever had a problem with them after installing a bigger RSB?

PJS

Check what I wrote on page 4.

llwtsx

drkangel348,

So DSG Metal Fab repaired it and beefed it up too? I'm just curious as to how they beefed it up -- maybe some pic's if it'll show what was done?

Thanks

drkangel348

Yep.
Sure... I'll take pics sometime this week.

curls

The problem I had when installing my car w/ the ES bushings was that the bolts that were used w/ the OEM bar/bushings were very short, and took a lot of bribery to get into the holes to secure the bushing bracket to the mount. We had to use the OEM scissor jack to push the bracket up and basically pre-load the bushing, in order to get the bolt into the hole.

I'd like to find some slightly longer, same-or-higher grade bolts, to use next time I lube the bushings. Anyone know the exact spec of the OEM bracket bolts (length, grade, thread, etc...) ??

Still Water

Yes I read your earlier post. What I meant to ask pertained to the OEM RSB and how it functioned as part of the overall suspension package. Hence with the installation of any stiffer bar and different bushings are we introducing a new movement and/or stress beyond what the mount is designed to handle. Then again the mounts could be just too whimpy and weak in the first place. My welder friend explained to me how the metal would become predisposed to failure as a result of it being bent or stamped. This should not be a surprise to anyone that the weakest link in the chain will be the first to fail. I've decided not to worry about that which has not yet happened and will just end up beefing up those whimpy brackets.

Once you've gone stiffer you can never go back!

IneedaTSX

Well my mount has been replaced by acura

No more knocking noise!!!!!!!!!!!!

And they covered it under warranty, I'm a happy man!!

CL9projektz

whoa how'd you pull that off???

Still Water

Tell us the whole story!!!

afici0nad0

appreciate it. thanks.

JTso

iTrader: (2)

Didn't know the mount is available separately from the lower subframe.

BulldogHockey

I installed my greasable ES bushings last night and had some compression on the bushings as well. Did you do the greasable ones? As Modaway stated, they needed to be modified to get the bolts to line up. Even afterward, the D washer (also modified) would make contact with the right angle of the bushing bracket which might have bent the bracket a little after torquing up.

To answer your question though, washers will probably not work unless you can get longer bolts. I had a heck of a time getting em in since the washer and bracket were thicker than stock.

And the damn right side zerk is real close to the exhaust pipe, making it real hard to grease. PITA, but now it's done and all is quiet and tight. I'm glad it's done and the car drives great again.

IneedaTSX

Not much to it, stock sway went back on, went to dealer and pointed out broken mount, they ordered and fixed. It couldn't have went easier, I was suprised.

Not sure if everyone will be as lucky, but its worth a shot.

IneedaTSX

Apparently they were able to order that part, called a "lower subframe mount".

I have the paperwork in the car, maybe I can find a part number or something.

jwood_06TSX

Yea def get that part number cause when i got into my accident in my 04, they had to replace the whole lower frame section that cost like $750 big ones!!

I wonder if Acura actually welded it or if the "lower subframe mount" it connectable?

JTso - Can you see anywhere under there where this piece might actually connect to though, cause i can't!

IneedaTSX

On the paper I did see a price, I think it was like $450....I'll confirm this afternoon.

I'll also get under the car and take a look at how it was repaired.

jwood_06TSX

Thanks, yea i am really curious as to how it all ties in. Maybe try and get a picture if possible?

gftgrill

maybe they cut off the old one and welded the new part in place? like they would do replacing a radiator support?

ineedatsx, how long did it take them to fix your car?

peter_bigblock

That sounds like the cost of the rear subframe. According to Delray Acura, it's about $550, I'm assuming this isn't what it costs the dealership.

llwtsx

drkangel348: Any pics yet ? Thanks.

vthree

iTrader: (1)

pictures please... howd you get acura to cover it ?

drkangel348

Sorry for the delay. I finally managed to get pics, its from a cell phone so please excuse the quality.

drkangel348

BTW, I haven't experienced any issues since I had this done over 3 months ago. I drive the car hard in corners on occasion too.

JTso

iTrader: (2)

I think this will work a little better. It's called "split collar" and they come in different sizes. Just place the half collar over the sway bar and tighten down the two hex bolts.

jwood_06TSX

JTso, is all aarong was trying to do with his invention was to prevent the bar from sliding back and forth and now with your recommend slip collar? I still don't see how if the bushings aren't just lubricated enough that this shouldn't be a huge problem. I know there will def be more stress in that area, but i honestly can't imagine it being that much. I think it also will depend on driving style, road conditions, and possible repetative motion (creating fatigue like bending of a paper clip over and over again in the same area) that would cause this type of failure.

xjohnkdoex

iTrader: (2)

has anyone who purchased and installed the progress bar encountered any of the issues mentioned in the thread yet?

moda_way

As mentioned before, the Progress bar does not do this because it has rings welded on to the bar to prevent the side-to-side motion.

jwood_06TSX

See this is what i don't understand. Maybe i am looking at it from the wrong angle but, if the car is made so that it can't move side to side (like the progress and the split collar mention above), wouldn't this create more stress on that area? I would tend to think that if the bar is being prevented from moving, the force of the bar wanting to move would then be translated into the mount, hence the failure......

jlukja

^^ Alright, we have a mechanical engineer on the case now.

TSXnTEX

whats the point of a sway bar?!? is it that important?

jwood_06TSX

Haha, i'm a Structural/Civil Engineer, not Mechanical but close enough for government work


TSXnTEX - umm....YES!!! Just go to howstuffworks.com and read up on it!

xjohnkdoex

iTrader: (2)

my bad, i must've skipped over that nugget of information.

jlukja

Read these:
http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/A_2359/article.html
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/car-suspension3.htm

JTso

iTrader: (2)

We are working with a couple of issues - stress and lubrication. Somehow these two are being grouped together, so let take a look at them.

- What is the primpary use of lubrication on a swaybar bushing? There isn't a single drop of lube on OEM soft rubber bushings on any cars regardless of how large the dia of the bar. You will only see the application of lube on poly bushing to eliminate noise due to the tight clearance, or lack there of between the bar and bushings. Otherwise, the dealer will have huge amount of squeaky suspension problem calls, or swaybar lubrication would be one of the regular maintenance items.

- Why use poly bushings? We all know the primpary use of poly bushing is to eliminate the flex in the system so the swaybar will react more quickly during turns. However, this also means quicker transfer of stress to the rest of the system (brackets, endlinks).

- How does poly compare to OEM bushing in terms of rate of stress transfer? Let me provide an example hopefully makes some sense (or not). Imagine placing your finger through the opening of a OEM D-bushing. Now place the D-bushing with your finger in it between a bench vise. Now slowly tighten the bench vise until you start to feel the pain (stress). The rubber bushing will collaspe to a certain point until the give is taken up, then your finger will hurt like hell. The swaybar will compress the bushing the same way. Note the thin upper portion of the Comptech bushings are tore to hell in no time? Comptech later switched to a thicker bushing because of this reason. Now, repeat the same exercise with a poly bushing and see the difference.

- Why do poly bushings require maintenance (lubrication)? Well, if the lube doesn't disappear, you will never have to re-lube the bushings. But how do they disappear? Well, the rotating movement will squeeze some of them out, and the side-to-side movement will cause some of it to come out as well, covering the side of the bushings. The amount of lube loss can not be recovered even the bar slides back to the original position. The bushings will simple push it aside due to the tight clearance. Now, what if the side movement of the bar can be reduced? Does it help reduce lubrication loss and thus increase the maintenane cycle? Perhaps.

- How to reduce the side movement? Progress seems to have a good idea on how to do it. In fact, Progress also uses the split collar on swaybars for other cars.

- Does the side movement increase or decrease stress on the brackets? Well, if movement promotes lubrication loss, and loss of lubrication promotes stress on the brackets... Then, what do you think?

- Are the OEM swaybar brackets capable of handling a larger bar like the one for the TSX (22mm)? The size increase from 15mm to 22mm is huge. The 7mm increase with a solid bar can exert large amount of stress. I think someone has provided some data on that.

I happen to be installing a new Progress rear swaybar for my Prelude yesterday. The OEM bar is 23mm and the new bar is 27mm, which is a much smaller increase than the TSX bar (4mm vs 7mm). However, Progress includes a set of heavy duty brackets measure 4.6mm thick and extended the base of the bracket to another few inches to provide more support and adding another mounting hole on the base bracket. Additionally, Progress also offers a replacement set of all metal rod end endlinks to be used with the 27mm bar. All these extra steps are clear indications how much stress can be put on the brackets with a thicker bar.

Why didn't Progress or Comptech include a different set of brackets? I believe they would if they could and should. If you examine the OEM brackets, it's not something that can be easily swapped out like other cars. Neuspeed took another approach which uses a slightly smaller bar (19mm).

I'm not a structural engineer but just a guy who works on cars a lot.