LuvMyTSX

Alright, so I've been noticing the last few weeks that my car just would not track straight at speeds over 65 mph, I could feel it yank itself to either side constantly, and basically the car just became impossible to control. I was actually afraid to drive it this weekend.

I am moving to NY, so I had to find another dealership to go to. I ended up making an appointment at DCH Heart Acura in Wappingers Falls. It was an interesting drive on 84 in the pouring rain in totally new territory to me. My car was so unstable at highway speeds, I could not go over 70 mph.

Anyway, here are my alignment results:



I am concerned about a few areas that are still not corrected after Saturday's alignment. The rear camber on both sides are still not within spec. What should I do? The car definitely drives/handles better, but it doesn't feel 100%. Tonight on my way back to Jersey I still felt it pull to the sides a few times, and also some vibration that came and went.

When the service advisor talked to me when everything was done, he said he knew why I asked for the alignment (in addition to summer wheel swap). He said it was really bad and asked if the car was ever in an accident. It was, but it was a very minor fender bender 3 years ago and I never had a problem until just recently. I know it is the potholes. The road conditions are deplorable around here, but there is nothing I can personally do about that. I'm honestly surprised I haven't had a flat tire or bent wheel from these roads.

ofusball21

I need to go get my car aligned too. I hear you with the NJ road conditions. Just awful. Its like an obstacle course getting to work swerving around all of them.

I wonder why they didn't get the rear cambers to spec?

Tangoman

Alright, I went through this on my TSX when I bought it. I still don't know why, but for some reason the rear camber on my car started to creep out of spec at around 50k. I'm not sure if it was bushings, yielding of the mounting points, etc - but I had to get the Ingalls Rear Camber/toe adjustment links to fix that (rear camber is not adjustable from the factory). They are drop in replacements, around 150 bucks I think? You can find them on Ingall's site. I had them done at my buddies shop. For about 6 months it was back within spec, all working well. But, after 6 months, they started to slip (the bolted joint is a shear joint, meaning there is space for the bolt to slide inboard and outboard, affected camber and toe. My buddy recommended that we put on eccentric bolt washers from the Honda dealer (which kept the bolts from sliding).

Now, this has been talked about before - but it doesn't hurt to mention it again. Once your camber is out of spec in the rear, SO IS YOUR TOE. They are dependent on each other in a 5-link suspension. You will want to install both the camber and toe adjustment rods (2 total per side).

The front suspension is more tricky. Honda net builds camber, meaning that camber IS NOT adjustable from the factory. Toe is, of course - and your alignment shop has taken care of this. This will at least ensure that you don't shred tires or have control problems while driving at higher speeds (like you mentioned, the car wanting to go either which way is classic evidence of a toe-d out car).

Your front camber will still be out of spec until you either get camber adjusting upper ball-joints or you get new upper a-arms that are adjustable, Skunk2 makes a set, spec-r set, etc. While this isn't ideal, your front camber numbers won't affect tire life that much, but since you have one side positive and one negative, you are essentially set up for NASCAR, meaning that you will constantly pull to one side. I had this problems for about 2 years before I had time to actually fix it, which new upper a-arms made possible.

Conclusion:
1) Get camber/toe adjusting rods for the rear ASAP, because you will shred tires QUICKLY if the pot holes cause your newly adjusted rear toe to run out of spec. Look into eccentric bolt washers as well...

2) Get camber adjusting upper ball-joints (Ingalls is good) for the front, or spend more money and get the new a-arms (more adjustability). Your front camber differential isn't horrible, so you can wait on this if you want.

Hope this helps - these are exactly the issues I have had to fix on my TSX (it was in a front end accident before I bought it).

Tangoman

Unfortunately the rear camber isn't adjustable, at least it wasn't on mine. The stock TSX rear suspension doesn't seem to hold up to pothole abuse (Michigan driving messed up mine!).

Hoosier_Buddy

click --> Right Rear Wheel Camber Out of Specification

LuvMyTSX

Yikes. Thanks, guys. I will try the service bulletin first. If that doesn't work, I'll go the aftermarket route. I can't believe Acura would essentially allow this to happen by not having an adjustable rear suspension.

At least it is better after the alignment. The car was seriously uncontrollable past 70mph, and the symptoms were just exacerbated by the nasty weather conditions. However, I do not want to have to buy new tires every other year, so I definitely want to get this fixed properly. Not to mention, I can still feel it pulling in the rear every so often.

LuvMyTSX

Great. After re-reading the service bulletin, the car might have bent or damaged chassis and suspension components if the camber is greater than -2.15. Mine is -2.7. FML. Hopefully I caught it in time.

Tangoman

Yep, having a correctly aligned front end is awesome! And yes, you'll need aftermarket rods for the back. Especially because even if you do replace the camber rod with a new one, it surely will go out of spec again (I had this issue).

http://www.robearracing.com/pd-ingal...accord-tsx.cfm

LuvMyTSX

Even driving it around town today I am noticing it's still messed up (obviously, because the rear camber is way out of spec). It used to be unnoticeable until highway speeds, but now I sense more vibration and a general uncharacteristically unsettled feeling in the car. I'm trying to go easy on it, but the pothole-riddled roads are making it impossible.

I have an appointment for next Tuesday at my previous dealer. I mentioned the service bulletin and they said make sure I bring it with me to the appointment. Said they will check to see if my car falls under the bulletin (which it does, all 2004s do), and order the parts. I'm nervous that this has caused other chassis or suspension damage since it's so far out of spec, so we'll see what happens next week. I have a feeling this is going to cost me.

Meanwhile, the other dealership called to follow up on Saturday's service. I was pleasant on the phone even though I'm irritated, and politely said that the alignment did help make the car more drivable (for now), but it did not fix the problem, and in fact, I found a service bulletin online that covers the problem. I said I have an appointment at another dealer to get it fixed. She seemed surprised at my response and said she'd have the manager call me to discuss. I have a feeling he won't call.

ofusball21

luvmytsx, thanks for bringing this to my attention. I had planned on getting my alignment fixed very soon and with this service bulletin it may be covered under my warranty.

Lately I have been a little scared driving on bumpy roads. The car seems to want to jump into other lanes unless I have a pretty strong grip on the steering wheel. Was this similar to what you are currently experiencing? It could just be the current lousy shape of the roads.

Would I need to pay for the 4 wheel alignment or do you think the dealer would notice how far out of spec the rears are and do the entire car?

Tangoman

4 wheel alignments at independent and even chain shops normally run anywhere from 90 to 120 bucks. You also seem to have a toe problem in the front, you should definitely get that looked at as soon as possible. If the dealer will fix the rear camber under warranty, they will certainly align it all up for you.

smmirza

Isn't there a TSB out there for the rear wheel alignment issue?

Miamicarfan

LuvMyTSX:

You should definitely try the service bulletin. My car received this service.

Also, if you feel that one pothole in particular or some in particular have damaged your car, take a picture of them. The municipality or goverment agency is responsible for maintaining the roads. If you have to spend money on your car to fix the suspension, keep the receipts and take pictures of the potholes. The municipality or government agency should have a department called something like "Risk Management" division. I once got a flat due to a pothole. The goverment agency eventually reinbursed me for this after contacting this department.

Good luck and keep us posted.

LuvMyTSX

Yup, I'm definitely doing the TSB first. I have an appointment next week. Still undecided about the camber kits. I guess if the alignment gets bad again after this repair, I will re-evaluate and decide what to do.

I can't even tell you how bad the roads are around here. It's not just one, two, or even 3 potholes in the area, I'm talking about entire roadways with completely uneven pavement with bad potholes mixed in (in particular, for anyone in the area, County Line Rd., Harlan School Rd., and Stony Brook Rd. in Branchburg, NJ, Somerset County). So far, they just seem to be doing a VERY rough patch on some problem areas, but it seems to make it worse, not better. They fill the holes, but don't even them out with the road, so they are actually higher after the repair, and then they just crumble again within a couple of weeks. The state has no money, that is the problem, so they are not repaving roads like they did in the past.

LuvMyTSX

Yes, handling is compromised a lot when the car is out of alignment this badly. At first, I only noticed it at highway speeds - the car would pull in different directions all the time, making it very difficult to track straight. It felt very unstable and eventually uncontrollable past about 70. I fought with it all last weekend to get where I needed to go. The toe was really bad, in addition to the camber. Now that the toe is fixed, it's not quite so bad, but I can definitely still feel something wrong, and I notice it most from the rear right wheel where the camber is off the most. It's a very unsettled feeling, which is quite noticeable since the TSX is usually very composed and for me, has always tracked like it's on rails. It also happened very quickly, it really seemed to go downhill in just a few weeks.

Your dealer should do an alignment after they replace the control arm from the TSB. I would think it would be part of the service, but I could be wrong. The dealer I went to in NY last weekend charged $99.95 for the alignment. The manager did end up calling yesterday afternoon. He was very apologetic and wants me to give them a 2nd try, which I probably will eventually, it's just bad timing right now. He offered to try to get the TSB covered under goodwill for me as well. I just can't make the trip up there for a few weeks and this repair can't wait, so I'm going to my previous dealer.

LuvMyTSX

Sometime within the last year during a service, I had asked the dealer to check out the suspension, particularly the rear. I'd been hearing an intermittent VERY loud metal on metal creaking sound either when I got into the car or got out. It did not happen consistently, so it was impossible to replicate. But I'm wondering if that noise has something to do with whatever is going on now, possibly a damaged chassis or suspension component they missed.

More recently, I heard the same noise come from the left front wheel when I got out of the car after arriving from my 90 mile NJ to NY trip a few weeks ago. I replicated the same noise over and over all weekend by pressing down on that corner, and then it disappeared when I got back to Jersey Sunday night. It was so loud that even my bf heard it from inside the house (I had parked in the garage).

JTso

iTrader: (2)

You really need to have someone look at the suspension again. The problem could be damaged control arm bushings, swaybar endlinks, defective shocks, or control arm ball joints.

The rear control arm on my wife's car broke while she was driving on the freeway, causing the inner sidewall of the tire rubbing against the inside of the wheelwell. The tire eventally blew out and part of the tire separated from the core. She was lucky it wasn't the front tire. Otherwise, she would have lost control of the car. If you don't feel safe driving it to the shop, tow it in instead.

LuvMyTSX

It feels 'ok' but not great around town after the alignment, but I am a bit nervous about having to drive on the highway to the airport Thursday morning and back on Saturday. Hopefully all will remain Kosher until I drop it off Monday night. I'll just try to take it easy till then.

Itchytoe

If you're worried about driving on the highway, there's a major problem somewhere. I worry when thinking about driving 150 mph in this car, but not normally on the highway. Your vehicle should be more than capable of 80 mph on the highway and shouldn't be the least bit unstable at that speed.
I'd suggest having a trusted mechanic check it out for you.

nj2pa2nc

Can you get someone to drive you to the airport and pick you up so you do not have to drive your car. Trying to go easy on a highway, especially with trucks, is not an easy task.

LuvMyTSX

Usually, my mom or my bf take me and/or pick me up, but my bf is working tomorrow and my mom (up until today) was not up to the task of taking me (her chemo was causing problems), but she said tonight that she feels better and can take me tomorrow. Bf will pick me up Saturday, so I'm set now.

I was increasingly more wary of its condition this morning. The car was vibrating a lot from the front end and I was only doing 60. Good thing I drop it off Monday night and get a loaner.

nj2pa2nc

happy to hear you have someone to drive you and then pick you up. I am even more pleased your mom feels good. My mom starts her chemo on the 29th. She has lung cancer. She has never smoked. I am taking her for it.

LuvMyTSX

I dropped off my car last night. They drove it this morning and said they feel some shimmying and believe I am right about the control arm, so they are trying to get it overnighted for the repair tomorrow. Also going to do another alignment and balance. I know this dealership has the Hunter Roadforce machine, I'm not sure about the other dealership I went to in NY. All I know is the price difference for the balance is double, so I have a feeling the one in NY does not have the Hunter machine. Anyway, hopefully it will be fixed properly this time.

In the meantime, I have an RDX SH-AWD loaner. I'm not really an SUV person and I've never had a vehicle with a turbo, so this is going to take some getting used to. If they can't get the part overnighted and the repair done by tomorrow, I'll be keeping the RDX through the weekend. There may be some Lowes/Home Depot runs in the near future....haha.

nj2pa2nc

I hope that solution will solve the problem.
The dealer I take my car to has the Hunter machine. I think that is one of the reasons my tires lasted to 74,000 miles. When I had the tires rotated they would also balance them.

LuvMyTSX

Almost 5pm and I've not heard from the dealer yet. Looks like I'll be keeping the RDX for the weekend.

nj2pa2nc

I know where you will be going this weekend. Home Depot/Lowes are calling you,

LuvMyTSX

The dealership ended up calling right at 5pm as I was about to walk out the door, so I don't have the RDX anymore, but I still need to go to Lowes.

Last night was a long night - 75 minute drive down to Princeton to pick up my car, then went back home to load up my car. Finally, an hour and 20 minutes up to NY. That's why I was kind of hoping my car wouldn't be ready till Monday so I could just go straight to NY. Oh well.

So she's fixed up and driving normally again. They replaced the upper control arm, which fixed the rear, but then pulled the toe out up front. Did a 4 wheel alignment and balance and now she's good as new, $409 later. No complaints, though, since this is the first repair that has really cost me any money in 6 years (aside from the lug that had to be replaced last year due to a tire shop mishap, not the car's fault ).

nj2pa2nc

Maybe you should not have answered the phone. Oh well, too late. When I need a loaner car I keep it overnight and many times I had it for the whole weekend. Try driving from NC to NJ and then back every few weeks. Makes your trip a short commute. Having the tsx makes long distance driving more comfortable.

ofusball21

Luvmytsx, is your car out of warranty or did they claim that the service didn't fall under that TSB shown earlier in the post?

LuvMyTSX

My car is way out of warranty now. It still falls under the TSB, but a TSB is not a recall, so if you want the service done out of warranty, you pay for it. Basically, the TSB is out there because it's a known problem with the car, but it's not a recall.

ofusball21

Thanks for the clarification. I think I might have the same problem you had but I am still under my CPO warranty which I would hope would cover something like this.

Glad you got it worked out though. It must feel a lot safer now.

LuvMyTSX

Yeah, it definitely feels way better. Night and day difference.

The CPO warranty should cover you as long as you're still under the bumper to bumper portion. The drive train portion will not cover it (I am still under that but not the bumper to bumper).

ofusball21

Count me as another one with the real camber out of spec. Just got new tires this week and got a full 4 wheel alignment done as well. Just like luvmytsx I have out of spec rear left and rear right.

Rear: left -1.7 actual
Rear: right -1.9 actual

No where near as bad as yours luvmytsx, but still not within spec. I am going to try calling the dealership this week and see what they can do since I have the extended warranty. I have not had a chance to drive it at highway speeds but I might do that before I take it in to see if I feel anything weird. I will keep everyone posted on how it turns out.

Tangoman

This is the issue I had. You can solve it by getting an Ingalls rear camber kit.

ofusball21

Yeah that might be something I do in the future but that costs money. I will try to get it fixed for free for now.

Tangoman

Even if you get it fixed at a dealer, it will likely go out of spec again. Hopefully it stays in spec for quite a long time.

ofusball21

So I called up the dealer and they said they would cover the parts but not another alignment. I tried to argue that there would be no point not to align the car after replacing suspension parts but I was getting no where. I called up Acura Care for my warranty and they agreed that the parts/labor and alignment were all covered since I had the extended warranty. I am bringing it on Friday for the techs to look at.

LuvMyTSX

Nice. Would be very good if you could get it covered. And I agree, no point in replacing the parts and then not doing an alignment. I would do it even if they pay for parts, but do not cover the alignment.

ofusball21

Just to keep everyone updated in case someone has the same problem in the future.

I had the rear right control arm replaced and the 4 wheel alignment done for no charge. I don't feel much of a difference just yet but I have not had a chance to take it on the highway yet. My dealer tried to get me to pay for it at first but all it took was a short call to Acura Care to get them to comp the service. After I mentioned this to them during my initial inspection they were very agreeable to order the parts and get it all fixed up. Overall I am happy but still concerned that this is one of those problems that I will be coming back for again.

LuvMyTSX

You're lucky you got them to pay for it. Hopefully it'll hold up for a long time, but I question it too. My car just doesn't seem to be holding up well to all the crappy roads in the area. The ride seems harsh and honestly, I'm tiring of it.