There maybe hope for us TSX's
11-27-2007, 11:42 AM
#43
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by Big Ben
Thanks for the info Greg. 7300 is the rev limit.
Comptech S/C = 7100
stock = 7300
Hondata reflash = 7600
11-27-2007, 11:49 AM
#44
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I've read the same thing about the spray pattern for the 550cc Injectors, so that's good you made the switch.
Hondata set the rev limiter for the S/C reflash lower because we start running out of fuel up top. With the SC setup at around 7100 RPMs or so, our injectors start to hit max duty. If we were to rev it higher there would be the danger of running lean. If you change your injectors and increase the fuel you should be able to rev up to 7600 RPMs again if you wanted. There is more power up there and the higher you rev the more HP you'll put down. I'm not sure how safe it is to rev that high with boost, but maybe you can contact Hondata or someone and ask them.
Hondata set the rev limiter for the S/C reflash lower because we start running out of fuel up top. With the SC setup at around 7100 RPMs or so, our injectors start to hit max duty. If we were to rev it higher there would be the danger of running lean. If you change your injectors and increase the fuel you should be able to rev up to 7600 RPMs again if you wanted. There is more power up there and the higher you rev the more HP you'll put down. I'm not sure how safe it is to rev that high with boost, but maybe you can contact Hondata or someone and ask them.
11-27-2007, 07:45 PM
#46
Drives With Hands
Originally Posted by Tsx536
I'm not sure how safe it is to rev that high with boost, but maybe you can contact Hondata or someone and ask them.
Halfway up the stroke the piston is traveling at peak velocity, but as it continues toward TDC it begins slowing down again, exerting tensile and compressive loads the con-rod, crank throw, and wrist pin. Another way to look at it is that the piston is always accelerating toward the center of the cylinder. This is called inertial loading, and inertial loading occurs near BDC as well but in the bottom half, it is a compressive load rather than a tensile load.
Inertial loading is at its highest when the piston is close to TDC and BDC, because while actual piston velocity is low, piston acceleration is quite high. Inertial loading increases as a square of RPM. If you double the RPM, quadruple the inertial load. If you rev your reflashed engine to 7600 RPM, you're putting 16% greater stress on the reciprocating parts than at the stock 7300 RPM. I'm not sure what the mass of our pistons is, but the con-rods on my GTO have to pull (or push) around 4200 pounds of force at redline (6500 RPM). That is 600lb more than the car weighs.
The other stressor is power loading, the compressive force of combustion on the reciprocating parts. The relationship between power loading and inertial loading is such that they sometime counteract. During combustion, the burning gases pushing down on the piston exert a compressive load that is far greater than the tensile load (obviously) so inertial loading is a benefit in that case. Power loading obviously goes way up with the addition of boost.
Peak inertial loads occur at TDC during the exhaust stroke (on the compression stroke you'd have about 2400lb of relief from compressing a 10psi boosted charge given a 10.5:1 SCR however) and at BDC on the power and exhaust strokes (combustion is finished by then so it is irrelevant, as is the boost level). The other concern with a higher redline on an interference engine is valve inertia keeping the valves from reseating before the piston comes up, which is more significant with more boost due to positive pressure on the backside of the intake valves. Stiffer valve springs might be a good idea.
Originally Posted by Highrev1
No need for the 750's 650's will suffice.
11-27-2007, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by rmpage
Boost doesn't have much to do with the stresses of a higher redline, really. Those stresses come solely from the inertia of the reciprocating parts.
Halfway up the stroke the piston is traveling at peak velocity, but as it continues toward TDC it begins slowing down again, exerting tensile and compressive loads the con-rod, crank throw, and wrist pin. Another way to look at it is that the piston is always accelerating toward the center of the cylinder. This is called inertial loading, and inertial loading occurs near BDC as well but in the bottom half, it is a compressive load rather than a tensile load.
Inertial loading is at its highest when the piston is close to TDC and BDC, because while actual piston velocity is low, piston acceleration is quite high. Inertial loading increases as a square of RPM. If you double the RPM, quadruple the inertial load. If you rev your reflashed engine to 7600 RPM, you're putting 16% greater stress on the reciprocating parts than at the stock 7300 RPM. I'm not sure what the mass of our pistons is, but the con-rods on my GTO have to pull (or push) around 4200 pounds of force at redline (6500 RPM). That is 600lb more than the car weighs.
The other stressor is power loading, the compressive force of combustion on the reciprocating parts. The relationship between power loading and inertial loading is such that they sometime counteract. During combustion, the burning gases pushing down on the piston exert a compressive load that is far greater than the tensile load (obviously) so inertial loading is a benefit in that case. Power loading obviously goes way up with the addition of boost.
Peak inertial loads occur at TDC during the exhaust stroke (on the compression stroke you'd have about 2400lb of relief from compressing a 10psi boosted charge given a 10.5:1 SCR however) and at BDC on the power and exhaust strokes (combustion is finished by then so it is irrelevant, as is the boost level). The other concern with a higher redline on an interference engine is valve inertia keeping the valves from reseating before the piston comes up, which is more significant with more boost due to positive pressure on the backside of the intake valves. Stiffer valve springs might be a good idea.
Do you think 650s might be easier to tune on the idle as well?
Halfway up the stroke the piston is traveling at peak velocity, but as it continues toward TDC it begins slowing down again, exerting tensile and compressive loads the con-rod, crank throw, and wrist pin. Another way to look at it is that the piston is always accelerating toward the center of the cylinder. This is called inertial loading, and inertial loading occurs near BDC as well but in the bottom half, it is a compressive load rather than a tensile load.
Inertial loading is at its highest when the piston is close to TDC and BDC, because while actual piston velocity is low, piston acceleration is quite high. Inertial loading increases as a square of RPM. If you double the RPM, quadruple the inertial load. If you rev your reflashed engine to 7600 RPM, you're putting 16% greater stress on the reciprocating parts than at the stock 7300 RPM. I'm not sure what the mass of our pistons is, but the con-rods on my GTO have to pull (or push) around 4200 pounds of force at redline (6500 RPM). That is 600lb more than the car weighs.
The other stressor is power loading, the compressive force of combustion on the reciprocating parts. The relationship between power loading and inertial loading is such that they sometime counteract. During combustion, the burning gases pushing down on the piston exert a compressive load that is far greater than the tensile load (obviously) so inertial loading is a benefit in that case. Power loading obviously goes way up with the addition of boost.
Peak inertial loads occur at TDC during the exhaust stroke (on the compression stroke you'd have about 2400lb of relief from compressing a 10psi boosted charge given a 10.5:1 SCR however) and at BDC on the power and exhaust strokes (combustion is finished by then so it is irrelevant, as is the boost level). The other concern with a higher redline on an interference engine is valve inertia keeping the valves from reseating before the piston comes up, which is more significant with more boost due to positive pressure on the backside of the intake valves. Stiffer valve springs might be a good idea.
Do you think 650s might be easier to tune on the idle as well?
11-28-2007, 07:09 PM
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RMPAGE is right, that is why just slapping stuff onto your car can be dangerous. I have used combustion analysis to deterimine what is safe to run on your engine, it is a great tool to determine what pressures the engine is acutally seeing and to ensure a long lasting safe engine. 
Here is an example of a 2.0 K-series engine.
The bottom line is theoretical compression (if combustion never happened).
The middle line is measured pressure (compression plus combustion pressure..... the actual pressure we measured).
The top line is combustion temp in celcius.
This is one combustion cycle around 7800 rpm. note the Indicated HP (IHP) and Indicated Torque (IT) there. Multiply by 4 (because this is only in 1 cylinder.... cylinder #4 to be exact). Take out parasitic losses (actually something like 40 hp). Then convert to whp by X .87 or so. That gives you 251 whp at 7800 rpm. And we got 1000 rpm to go.
You can plainly see the pressure increase and decrease by crank angle as the combustion happens in the chamber. You can obviously see knock too.... even before you can hear it.
Here is an example of a 2.0 K-series engine.
The bottom line is theoretical compression (if combustion never happened).
The middle line is measured pressure (compression plus combustion pressure..... the actual pressure we measured).
The top line is combustion temp in celcius.
This is one combustion cycle around 7800 rpm. note the Indicated HP (IHP) and Indicated Torque (IT) there. Multiply by 4 (because this is only in 1 cylinder.... cylinder #4 to be exact). Take out parasitic losses (actually something like 40 hp). Then convert to whp by X .87 or so. That gives you 251 whp at 7800 rpm. And we got 1000 rpm to go.
You can plainly see the pressure increase and decrease by crank angle as the combustion happens in the chamber. You can obviously see knock too.... even before you can hear it.
11-29-2007, 09:54 AM
#51
Drives With Hands
Originally Posted by Highrev1
RMPAGE is right, that is why just slapping stuff onto your car can be dangerous. I have used combustion analysis to deterimine what is safe to run on your engine, it is a great tool to determine what pressures the engine is acutally seeing and to ensure a long lasting safe engine.
Oh, and sorry for being confusing before. I was basically just saying that the stresses of more boost squeeze parts together, while the stresses of a higher redline both stretch AND squeeze. They barely affect each other at all. The only thing I would really worry about when raising the redline on a supercharged engine (versus NA) is the ability of the intake valve to close rapidly while trying to hold back boost. Other than that, it's apples and oranges.
11-29-2007, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by rmpage
Do you think 650s might be easier to tune on the idle as well?
The Fic although a great product doesn't have a target idle A/F from what I can tell, I have only glanced over it really
But that may be an issue.For the Combustion analysis I am using this http://www.tfxengine.com/
Thats just the software, I had to get a spark plug that was a couple grand to allow for this testing
11-29-2007, 07:39 PM
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After talking with Highrev I am went ahead and got both the 3.2 pulley and the 3.0 pulley. 3.0 pulley maybe to much boost. Will keep you updated on which one I keep.
11-29-2007, 07:49 PM
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Excellent move!!!!So others know why I said for him to go with a slightly bigger pulley.
This is a 3rd gear pull using the Roots Blower on a k20 using the K24 crank pulley. Ambient temp was 55 deg F. The test is a 3rd gear pull from 3000 to 8500 with a controlled decel using no brake.
8 psi peaked at 192 deg....12 psi peaked at 233 deg F. The 12 psi setup made more heat, even when it wasn't required to make power
The 8 psi boost level was attained with a 3.3" s/c pulley. The 12 psi boost level
was a 3.0" Pulley Boys pulley. The only time it would stop making heat is when the MAP was around 10"
vacuum and less.
11-29-2007, 10:59 PM
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RMpage What kinda engineer are you..You have to be to know what you know...
As for the Twinscrew yes.....The Eaton's roots charger is just as good as the twin-screw up to 8.5 psi. And the Eaton is darn closs to the twin-screw up to 10 psi. By 11 psi, the Eaton is starting to be a problem. By 12 psi, the Eaton roots is creating alot of heat and is definitely outside it's useful range.
The chart that shows the difference in temps that our intake air temp sensor is reading in a 3000-8500 rpm WOT sweep VERSUS a 10 second steady state rpm and boost load. Boost levels in sweep and steady state modes were almost exactly the same. Try a 10 second run at 7000 rpm in 3rd and hold the brakes so you don't go any faster. Wow.
And one more note..... and that is that the intake air heat would level off after about 6 seconds; so the steady state heat figures are probably within a few percent of what they would be in a bench test over 20 seconds.
Basically over say 9psi a twinscree will be better. Under that the Roots is more efficent.
THis chart is essentially a rolling road test where I marked points on a road about 1 mile apart and I did steady state, low throttle (hold speed without the brake). I've included the MAP values at each RPM, and you'll notice that the MAP values aren't all the same. That's because the road wasn't exactly flat...but each RPM has a consistent grade and it was only slight; so the data is absolutely worthwhile. What you notice is that the twin-screw runs hotter in normal driving...that point was the purpose of this test.
As for the Twinscrew yes.....The Eaton's roots charger is just as good as the twin-screw up to 8.5 psi. And the Eaton is darn closs to the twin-screw up to 10 psi. By 11 psi, the Eaton is starting to be a problem. By 12 psi, the Eaton roots is creating alot of heat and is definitely outside it's useful range.
The chart that shows the difference in temps that our intake air temp sensor is reading in a 3000-8500 rpm WOT sweep VERSUS a 10 second steady state rpm and boost load. Boost levels in sweep and steady state modes were almost exactly the same. Try a 10 second run at 7000 rpm in 3rd and hold the brakes so you don't go any faster. Wow.
And one more note..... and that is that the intake air heat would level off after about 6 seconds; so the steady state heat figures are probably within a few percent of what they would be in a bench test over 20 seconds.
Basically over say 9psi a twinscree will be better. Under that the Roots is more efficent.
THis chart is essentially a rolling road test where I marked points on a road about 1 mile apart and I did steady state, low throttle (hold speed without the brake). I've included the MAP values at each RPM, and you'll notice that the MAP values aren't all the same. That's because the road wasn't exactly flat...but each RPM has a consistent grade and it was only slight; so the data is absolutely worthwhile. What you notice is that the twin-screw runs hotter in normal driving...that point was the purpose of this test.
11-29-2007, 11:31 PM
#58
Drives With Hands
I'm trained as an electrical engineer. 
Interesting how the twin screw runs hotter than the roots while under vacuum. I would credit that to its internal compression ratio.
Did you ever try a part throttle dyno pull to see if the twin screw was also incurring a higher parasitic loss (under vacuum) than the roots? You seem to have tested everything else under the sun so I wouldn't be surprised if you had, lol.
Interesting how the twin screw runs hotter than the roots while under vacuum. I would credit that to its internal compression ratio.
Did you ever try a part throttle dyno pull to see if the twin screw was also incurring a higher parasitic loss (under vacuum) than the roots? You seem to have tested everything else under the sun so I wouldn't be surprised if you had, lol.
11-29-2007, 11:41 PM
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It does run hotter but if it were a cooled setup it wouldn't matter as much, except under idlinling conditions
And absoutly it is due to the internal compression design of the TS compared to the Roots.
No haven't done any parasitic loss dynos as of yet. I will get to them, as that is somthing that is important to determine exactly how much loss each setup produces.
ALthough eitherway based just on the efficency graphs the TS is a much better choice for higher boost setups compared to the roots, say above 9 psi TS is the winner.
And absoutly it is due to the internal compression design of the TS compared to the Roots.
No haven't done any parasitic loss dynos as of yet. I will get to them, as that is somthing that is important to determine exactly how much loss each setup produces.
ALthough eitherway based just on the efficency graphs the TS is a much better choice for higher boost setups compared to the roots, say above 9 psi TS is the winner.
11-30-2007, 03:58 PM
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I can get full custom AEM standalones made for the TSX...i posted this up a couple months ago but nobody ever took notice to it...thats the answer for anyone looking to run a turbo or custom s/c or even high compression n/a setup
11-30-2007, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Highrev1
^^Thats a wire in solution only right? Not a PNP?
if anyone is interested please shoot me a pm. I cant post a link to the company due to acurazine's vendor policies
12-01-2007, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Highrev1
^^Thats a wire in solution only right? Not a PNP? What functions would be lost with that setup?
Ben those boomslang harnesses are so nice!!!!
Ben those boomslang harnesses are so nice!!!!
12-02-2007, 09:57 PM
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sorry... for the non engineer's out there or basically me who doesn't understand most of this... can you do a quick sum up of whats going on here, what youre using, what it does and how much more power it could potentially add?
is the AEM setup something that will work on all model years or just specific ones?
where did you get all this stuff, how much and if possible can you shoot me a link to where you found it?
last thing...
do you have to know how to do all this stuff yourself or is this something i could walk into a tuning shop and say... slap it on for me and get the car back in a day or two?
thanks
I know a decent amount about cars and mods but when you start talking boost I'm like Michael Jackson at a boys Catholic elementary school... a little overwhelmed (minus the hard on... well... maybe). :wink:
is the AEM setup something that will work on all model years or just specific ones?
where did you get all this stuff, how much and if possible can you shoot me a link to where you found it?
last thing...
do you have to know how to do all this stuff yourself or is this something i could walk into a tuning shop and say... slap it on for me and get the car back in a day or two?
thanks
I know a decent amount about cars and mods but when you start talking boost I'm like Michael Jackson at a boys Catholic elementary school... a little overwhelmed (minus the hard on... well... maybe). :wink:
12-03-2007, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Redfish
Looks like a great step forward. Good Luck!
In your initial post, you mention having 245WHP...just wondering what power mods in addition to the S/C you currently have...?
Thanks!
In your initial post, you mention having 245WHP...just wondering what power mods in addition to the S/C you currently have...?
Thanks!
12-03-2007, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by TSX Wisc Badger
sorry... for the non engineer's out there or basically me who doesn't understand most of this... can you do a quick sum up of whats going on here, what youre using, what it does and how much more power it could potentially add?
is the AEM setup something that will work on all model years or just specific ones?
where did you get all this stuff, how much and if possible can you shoot me a link to where you found it?
last thing...
do you have to know how to do all this stuff yourself or is this something i could walk into a tuning shop and say... slap it on for me and get the car back in a day or two?
thanks
I know a decent amount about cars and mods but when you start talking boost I'm like Michael Jackson at a boys Catholic elementary school... a little overwhelmed (minus the hard on... well... maybe). :wink:
is the AEM setup something that will work on all model years or just specific ones?
where did you get all this stuff, how much and if possible can you shoot me a link to where you found it?
last thing...
do you have to know how to do all this stuff yourself or is this something i could walk into a tuning shop and say... slap it on for me and get the car back in a day or two?
thanks
I know a decent amount about cars and mods but when you start talking boost I'm like Michael Jackson at a boys Catholic elementary school... a little overwhelmed (minus the hard on... well... maybe). :wink:
12-04-2007, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by simplyscion
I can get full custom AEM standalones made for the TSX...i posted this up a couple months ago but nobody ever took notice to it...thats the answer for anyone looking to run a turbo or custom s/c or even high compression n/a setup
12-04-2007, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by neocrynym
As far as I know, AEM does not make a full standalone for the TSX allowing us to keep all amenities while still having 100% tunability. So, care to elaborate on your statement here?
12-04-2007, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by neocrynym
As far as I know, AEM does not make a full standalone for the TSX allowing us to keep all amenities while still having 100% tunability. So, care to elaborate on your statement here?
Ive been talking with Highrev1 about the setup and its up to him now to see if he would like to go ahead with it and possibly use it in their turbo/sc kit if things work out in the end. No prices as of yet but if theres enough interest I can get the ball rolling for you guys
12-04-2007, 08:39 PM
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mods please edit my post above...i dont want it to be considered as advertising a product for you guys and not being a vendor...if any interest please PM me
12-05-2007, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Big Ben
where in nashville are you? That is where I am from and I got home alot.
Originally Posted by simplyscion
yup, as I stated in my post "I can get full custom AEM standalones made for the TSX...i posted this up a couple months ago but nobody ever took notice to it...thats the answer for anyone looking to run a turbo or custom s/c or even high compression n/a setup
Ive been talking with Highrev1 about the setup and its up to him now to see if he would like to go ahead with it and possibly use it in their turbo/sc kit if things work out in the end. No prices as of yet but if theres enough interest I can get the ball rolling for you guys
Ive been talking with Highrev1 about the setup and its up to him now to see if he would like to go ahead with it and possibly use it in their turbo/sc kit if things work out in the end. No prices as of yet but if theres enough interest I can get the ball rolling for you guys