Double-clutching
12-11-2003, 09:21 AM
#1
Double-clutching
Just wondering.... How many of yous guys double clutch? I started doing it when I learned that it makes the synchronizers last way longer. It's fun also. Any TSX 6MT owners not know how to double clutch? If you wanna learn I can post some instructions.
Slats
Slats
12-11-2003, 09:31 AM
#2
Suzuka Master
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Correct me if I'm wrong.
When downshifting (overly simplified):
1. Press clutch in
2. Take out of gear
3. Release clutch (in neutral)
4. Rev engine to match lower gear
5. Prese clutch in
6. Select lower gear
7. Release clutch
This all should happen within a second or two.
Most electric shift trannies do this on cars today for you.
When downshifting (overly simplified):
1. Press clutch in
2. Take out of gear
3. Release clutch (in neutral)
4. Rev engine to match lower gear
5. Prese clutch in
6. Select lower gear
7. Release clutch
This all should happen within a second or two.
Most electric shift trannies do this on cars today for you.
12-11-2003, 11:10 AM
#6
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I drove tour busses in Glacier Nat'l Park for a summer in 1980 - they were 1936 White Motor Coach busses that had been fitted with "new" manual transmissions. I was told that with the original, old manual trannies, double-clutching was required to shift gears, but that was no longer necessary with the "newer" manual (and it wasn't). Point of this is that it's my understanding that double-clutching serves no, zip, nada purpose anymore and hasn't for a very long time (i.e. since about the 1950's). For what it's worth.....
12-11-2003, 11:54 AM
#7
Race Director
I had to double clutch when driving a '47 American LaFrance fire truck (drove it in parades in the 80s) but for over 40 years in cars that's just an old timers technique. The synchros will probably be last thing to go in the tranny. Even in 200-300K mile cars I'm sure it's not the synchro that does the car in.
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12-11-2003, 12:04 PM
#8
Stokeless
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extend synchro life....lol how long do u plan on having the car 20 years? i mean be real man you dont need to do this shiet. most people got that off Fast and the Furious thinkin it makes them drive faster. you arent doing anything to make your car alst longer. Hondas will last you ovwer 200,000 miles without a rebuild if you do the maintenece right. i dont plan on having my TSX over 200000 miles with in the next 10 years.
12-11-2003, 02:37 PM
#10
With the manual tranny these days, you DON'T need double-clutching, period. If this technique becomes a habit for you, don't be surprised when you lose to a slower car in a drag race, because your double-clutching is slowing you down.
12-11-2003, 05:50 PM
#12
Suzuka Master
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Don't need double clutching, eh? Have you guys tried putting the car in first at anything over 1mph?
And actually, I do plan on keeping this car 10+ years/200000+ miles. Thanks.
And actually, I do plan on keeping this car 10+ years/200000+ miles. Thanks.
12-11-2003, 05:57 PM
#13
Originally posted by ClutchPerformer
Don't need double clutching, eh? Have you guys tried putting the car in first at anything over 1mph?
And actually, I do plan on keeping this car 10+ years/200000+ miles. Thanks.
Don't need double clutching, eh? Have you guys tried putting the car in first at anything over 1mph?
And actually, I do plan on keeping this car 10+ years/200000+ miles. Thanks.
12-11-2003, 06:54 PM
#15
Burning Brakes
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ive never known how to double clutch before.
first, i want to know why it is that you pull the clutch out and rev up in neutral. cant you just rev up in nuetral with clutch in and in your desired gear?
i dont understand the reasoning.
and do you double clutch down if you want to accelerate harder, or when your slowing down and switching gears. or both even?
first, i want to know why it is that you pull the clutch out and rev up in neutral. cant you just rev up in nuetral with clutch in and in your desired gear?
i dont understand the reasoning.
and do you double clutch down if you want to accelerate harder, or when your slowing down and switching gears. or both even?
12-11-2003, 10:50 PM
#16
The main reason for double clutching is to reduce the wear on the snychronizers from what I've read. You have to be in neutral with clutch out for it to work right--it's complicated. Double clutch when you are slowing for a turn, etc... You can do it when you want to downshift to accelerate harder, but it takes a little more time, so never double clutch during a race or something. Hope this helps!
Slats
Slats
12-11-2003, 11:44 PM
#17
such a dirty birdy
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Originally posted by TSX Cman
ive never known how to double clutch before.
first, i want to know why it is that you pull the clutch out and rev up in neutral. cant you just rev up in nuetral with clutch in and in your desired gear?
i dont understand the reasoning.
and do you double clutch down if you want to accelerate harder, or when your slowing down and switching gears. or both even?
ive never known how to double clutch before.
first, i want to know why it is that you pull the clutch out and rev up in neutral. cant you just rev up in nuetral with clutch in and in your desired gear?
i dont understand the reasoning.
and do you double clutch down if you want to accelerate harder, or when your slowing down and switching gears. or both even?
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/transmission2.htm
For a modern transmission with synchros, the main reason you double-clutch is to look cool in front of your friends.
12-12-2003, 12:56 AM
#20
Suzuka Master
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To answer the basic question: if you rev your engine with the clutch pedal pushed in, the layshaft speed is unchanged. If you rev with the clutch pedal out, the layshaft speed changes with engine speed. Just for the record, there's no need to worry about double clutching on an upshift (unless you're a truck driver).
The detailed answer (how's and why's): Think about the driveline as three parts. There's the engine, the transmission input (layshaft) and the transmission output (driveshaft). You have controls to connect any two of these. They are the clutch pedal (controls engine to layshaft) and the shifter (controls layshaft to driveshaft). Then you have mechanical elements that are designed to force the rotational speeds of all these components to match each other. These are the actual clutch plate (engine to layshaft) and the synchros (layshaft to driveshaft). Double clutching is all about controlling the speed of your layshaft. As it turns out, the only way to positively control the speed of anything is using the engine to do it for you. In order to use the engine to control layshaft speed, it must be connected mechanically to the layshaft (i.e. clutch pedal out). The shifter being in neutral allows the engine/layshaft to spin free of the driveshaft.
So this process (3-2 shift)....:
1. Push clutch pedal in.
2. Move shifter from 3rd to neutral
3. Let clutch pedal out.
4. Blip throttle.
5. Clutch pedal in.
6. Shifter to 2nd.
7. Clutch pedal out.
.....is actually accomplishing this:
1. Disconnect engine and transmission input (layshaft).
2. Disconnect transmission input (layshaft) and transmission output (driveshaft).
3. Connect engine and transmission input (layshaft).
4. Change engine/layshaft speed to match driveshaft speed.
5. Disconnect engine and transmission input.
6. Connect transmission input and transmission output (2nd gear).
7. Connect engine to transmission input.
The difference between a double clutched downshift and a "simple" rev-matched downshift is that in the simple shift, you don't control your layshaft speed. Assuming you match RPMs perfectly, there's zero wear on your clutch, but your synchros still have to do a lot of work to get the layshaft to spin at the same speed as your output shaft. I don't know if this'll make sense, but everything in "front" of the driveshaft wants to slow down (from friction), and in a downshift, you're trying to speed it back up again. You can speed the engine back up easily by blipping the throttle, but there's no active control for spinning the layshaft up to speed--so you double clutch to control it manually. Get it?
The detailed answer (how's and why's): Think about the driveline as three parts. There's the engine, the transmission input (layshaft) and the transmission output (driveshaft). You have controls to connect any two of these. They are the clutch pedal (controls engine to layshaft) and the shifter (controls layshaft to driveshaft). Then you have mechanical elements that are designed to force the rotational speeds of all these components to match each other. These are the actual clutch plate (engine to layshaft) and the synchros (layshaft to driveshaft). Double clutching is all about controlling the speed of your layshaft. As it turns out, the only way to positively control the speed of anything is using the engine to do it for you. In order to use the engine to control layshaft speed, it must be connected mechanically to the layshaft (i.e. clutch pedal out). The shifter being in neutral allows the engine/layshaft to spin free of the driveshaft.
So this process (3-2 shift)....:
1. Push clutch pedal in.
2. Move shifter from 3rd to neutral
3. Let clutch pedal out.
4. Blip throttle.
5. Clutch pedal in.
6. Shifter to 2nd.
7. Clutch pedal out.
.....is actually accomplishing this:
1. Disconnect engine and transmission input (layshaft).
2. Disconnect transmission input (layshaft) and transmission output (driveshaft).
3. Connect engine and transmission input (layshaft).
4. Change engine/layshaft speed to match driveshaft speed.
5. Disconnect engine and transmission input.
6. Connect transmission input and transmission output (2nd gear).
7. Connect engine to transmission input.
The difference between a double clutched downshift and a "simple" rev-matched downshift is that in the simple shift, you don't control your layshaft speed. Assuming you match RPMs perfectly, there's zero wear on your clutch, but your synchros still have to do a lot of work to get the layshaft to spin at the same speed as your output shaft. I don't know if this'll make sense, but everything in "front" of the driveshaft wants to slow down (from friction), and in a downshift, you're trying to speed it back up again. You can speed the engine back up easily by blipping the throttle, but there's no active control for spinning the layshaft up to speed--so you double clutch to control it manually. Get it?
12-12-2003, 07:08 AM
#21
Three Wheelin'
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oh man you guys are sad 
... I have a 94 GS-R... not once have I ever had to double clutch and my transmission feels like the day that I drove it off the lot.
to me you look stupid (not trying to insult you guys just don't know how else to put it) doing something that is unneccesary.
with the exception of going into 1st... and you can do this without double clutching... I can hold the clutch in and rev match to get the car into 1st without have to do the above procedure. Never had a problem never will.
The whole point of a syncho is to avoid having to double clutch. You might as well buy an automatic because you are missing the point of your manual as it stands.
... I have a 94 GS-R... not once have I ever had to double clutch and my transmission feels like the day that I drove it off the lot.to me you look stupid (not trying to insult you guys just don't know how else to put it) doing something that is unneccesary.
with the exception of going into 1st... and you can do this without double clutching... I can hold the clutch in and rev match to get the car into 1st without have to do the above procedure. Never had a problem never will.
The whole point of a syncho is to avoid having to double clutch. You might as well buy an automatic because you are missing the point of your manual as it stands.
12-12-2003, 09:21 AM
#22
Burning Brakes
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well i felt stupid because i didnt understand how the double clutching worked. but clutch performer summed it up pretty damn well and im satisfied now. im not saying that all im going to do now is double clutch, but im going to try it today and see what happens. and if people want to put the extra effort in their driving, such as an unnecessary double clutch, let them, they like doing it.
12-12-2003, 10:01 AM
#23
Glad we were able to show you something new, TSX Cman. Let us know how it goes. It will take some time, but is pretty easy to master. As for you DEVO, sorry we can't all be as cool and all-knowing as you. And if you have a problem with the way other people chose to downshift, then kiss us between the back pockets (no offense, of course). Also, thanks ClutchPerformer for the detailed explaination. You must know more about this than I do. Please share any other manual driving tips you might know.
Slats
Slats
12-12-2003, 10:42 AM
#24
Stokeless
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I AGREE DEVO it a waste of time and energy. thats why we have whats called technology .seems like all these people watchin the freakin movies like fast and furious...fawkin ridiculous. you think you know how to drive cuz you watched a movie or read some rice boy magazine like stupid street. have you guys ever raced before? not just on the street but at a track? id like to see you double clutch while racing someone one and get your ass handed to you by a car that should be left in your dust
12-12-2003, 10:49 AM
#25
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to each their own... I'm sticking by what I say... I'm not all knowing either (close but not all) ... they are facts... do some research and you will see that.
like i said... don't drive your car and it will perserve nicely... why not follow that logic if you want to save the synchros?
I would love to see a single case where synchros were worn out by not double clutching (modern day transmission of course, road car). just one... and if it's a honda i'll eat my words... won't change my driving style though.
like i said... don't drive your car and it will perserve nicely... why not follow that logic if you want to save the synchros?
I would love to see a single case where synchros were worn out by not double clutching (modern day transmission of course, road car). just one... and if it's a honda i'll eat my words... won't change my driving style though.
12-12-2003, 10:53 AM
#26
Three Wheelin'
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also... for those that are going to try the above steps... it takes practise and you are going to get it all wrong the first several times... it will feel all jerky and then you are going to say double clutching sucks but it's not that... you got it wrong. It's easier to get a smoother transition without double clutching then with double cluting... also... try to do this while cornering and not unsettling the car.
reasons to do this: zero
reasons not to do this: too many to count.
reasons to do this: zero
reasons not to do this: too many to count.
12-12-2003, 10:54 AM
#27
NOBODY said anything about double clutching while racing, you morons! 2 Fast 2 Furious is wrong about that. I double clutch cause I like to and because it's better for the trans. End of disscusion. Drive how you like, and I'll drive how I like.
Slats
Slats
12-12-2003, 11:05 AM
#28
Wrong again DEVO, double clutching (when done right) is every bit as smoother or smoother than any other method of downshifting. Also, it's not as hard to learn as you make it sound. It took me a good week to have it mastered, but I got fairly good at it in one day of practice. I suppose you are probably against the heel-toe downshifting as well. This stuff has nothing to do with rice boys and movies. It's called skilled driving techniques.
Slats
Slats
12-12-2003, 11:15 AM
#29
in search of PW threads
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Originally posted by slats
... This stuff has nothing to do with rice boys and movies. It's called skilled driving techniques.
... This stuff has nothing to do with rice boys and movies. It's called skilled driving techniques.
dnb, who only double clutches when he has trouble downshifting into first gear.
12-12-2003, 11:18 AM
#30
Photography Nerd
Originally posted by slats
This stuff has nothing to do with rice boys and movies. It's called skilled driving techniques.
This stuff has nothing to do with rice boys and movies. It's called skilled driving techniques.
It's a tottaly pointless shifting technique with modern cars. They invented syncros for a reason you know!
12-12-2003, 11:21 AM
#31
Thanks for finding bringing this to everyones attention dnb. Both double clutching and heel-toe are performance oriented driving skills. I like to know as many of these techniques as possible. Right now I'm trying to perfect double clutching and heel-toe at the same time on this long winding hill before my house. Tricky!
Slats
Slats
12-12-2003, 12:49 PM
#32
Originally posted by ClutchPerformer
Don't need double clutching, eh? Have you guys tried putting the car in first at anything over 1mph?
Don't need double clutching, eh? Have you guys tried putting the car in first at anything over 1mph?
If you feel that you need to double-clutch, go for it. IMO, I just don't think it is necessary for modern cars.
12-12-2003, 12:54 PM
#33
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Originally posted by slats
Wrong again DEVO, double clutching (when done right) is every bit as smoother or smoother than any other method of downshifting. Also, it's not as hard to learn as you make it sound. It took me a good week to have it mastered, but I got fairly good at it in one day of practice. I suppose you are probably against the heel-toe downshifting as well. This stuff has nothing to do with rice boys and movies. It's called skilled driving techniques.
Slats
Wrong again DEVO, double clutching (when done right) is every bit as smoother or smoother than any other method of downshifting. Also, it's not as hard to learn as you make it sound. It took me a good week to have it mastered, but I got fairly good at it in one day of practice. I suppose you are probably against the heel-toe downshifting as well. This stuff has nothing to do with rice boys and movies. It's called skilled driving techniques.
Slats
how can it be smoother when it takes longer? next you are going to tell me that you can double clutch faster then a normal shift? you can blip the throttle and shift into gear without upsetting the car during a turn. there is no way you are going to get a better or smoother transition then that. nor are you going to be able to do it in the correct amount of time... on a short corner or long corner you will be in the wrong gear (or neutral) for a lot longer.
heel-toe has nothing to do with double clutching... but i would love to see you do both... next your going tell me that how the pros do it (in a synchro tranny).
skilled driving technique (for a non synchro tranny yes).
12-12-2003, 12:57 PM
#34
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also, those schools probably teach double clutching as a technique when you are in trouble... also a race car is a whole different beast. we are talking about road cars.
a race car tends not to have synchros and the gears are "straight" cut, which require a double clutch technique.
a race car tends not to have synchros and the gears are "straight" cut, which require a double clutch technique.
12-12-2003, 05:33 PM
#36
Suzuka Master
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Originally posted by vwong
....you'll see that I downshifted into 1st.....around 15-20 mph....
....you'll see that I downshifted into 1st.....around 15-20 mph....
12-12-2003, 06:36 PM
#37
Does anyone else here wish that DEVO would go back to the village he came from (the one missing the idiot)? No I can't double clutch faster than a normal downshift, but still under a second. BTW, it's almost common knowledge that double clutching and heel-toe can be performed at the same time with skill. Do yourself a favor and read a book or something... Anyone else agree with me on this matter? ClutchPerformer or another one of the smarter guys in this forum?
Slats
Slats
12-12-2003, 06:40 PM
#38
Photography Nerd
Originally posted by slats
Does anyone else here wish that DEVO would go back to the village he came from (the one missing the idiot)? No I can't double clutch faster than a normal downshift, but still under a second. BTW, it's almost common knowledge that double clutching and heel-toe can be performed at the same time with skill. Do yourself a favor and read a book or something... Anyone else agree with me on this matter? ClutchPerformer or another one of the smarter guys in this forum?
Slats
Does anyone else here wish that DEVO would go back to the village he came from (the one missing the idiot)? No I can't double clutch faster than a normal downshift, but still under a second. BTW, it's almost common knowledge that double clutching and heel-toe can be performed at the same time with skill. Do yourself a favor and read a book or something... Anyone else agree with me on this matter? ClutchPerformer or another one of the smarter guys in this forum?
Slats
12-12-2003, 09:29 PM
#40
Three Wheelin'
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i see how this works, you are upset or you are not making your point therefore revert to name calling. just because you can't win an arguement doesn't mean you should lower yourself in that way. you find me an article that says double clutching is needed for synchro transmission cars and you win. until then, keep pretending that you are cool.