kangjin

So I was putting on some Hawk Ceramic pads today and decided to flush the fluid as well.

For some reason which I will never figure out, I thought the proper way to flush the system would be to bleed the brakes until the master cylinder was empty and then to put in new fluid. Bad move. Stupid move.

In order to get the fluid out, I had to use a lot of pressure on the brake pedal. It felt like the pedal went through two stages of travel - the first, friction-free stage; and a second, very difficult stage.

I wasn't able to get all of the old fluid out, but I was able to fill up and get clear fluid flowing through the FRONT LEFT and REAR RIGHT brakes. The FRONT RIGHT and REAR LEFT still feel a strange while bleeding, but the fluid looks clear.

Here's the kicker - now I have no braking power when the car's turned on...or off for that matter. The pedal just travels through nearly the entire range of motion with no friction - it's at the last few mm of travel that there is any braking power.

I went through the Helm troubleshooting and the master cylinder / booster are working fine.

Any ideas? I feel like such an idiot.

[edit] I also installed some speed bleeders, which work really well. and I used about two bottles of Honda heavy duty brake fluid, if that helps at all. I'm thinking there's a huge air bubble in the line and I just need to keep bleeding...

kangjin

well, I went back to re-flush the system, and i found that only the front left and rear right brakes felt hot.

so i bled the whole thing again, taking extra care with the front right and rear left brakes, which were cold to the touch.

I think that did it - i ended up using another bottle of fluid (total of 3) and now when i turn on the car, the pedal feels like it has some resistance to it.

anything else i should check while the car is up on stands?

JTso

iTrader: (2)

Did you go through the proper bleeding patten? Did you release the parking brake during bleeding?

kangjin

I believe I did - Front left, front right, rear right, rear left...that's the order the manual said to follow.

kangjin

Well, that did it - I bled the entire system again, and made sure the front right and rear left bled clear. I guess there must have been a giant air bubble in the lines for those brakes.

I took her out again and performed the bed-in procedure. Now i'm just waiting for them to cool down.

Lesson learned!

jmathew34

glad to hear you resolved the issue...

mind taking some pics of the speed bleeders?

kangjin

I don't have a camera anymore, but here's the website:

http://www.speedbleeder.com/

I got the regular ones, not the stainless. It didn't seem worth it.

The SB10125 is the model I got, since that seemed to be the one used on later-model Acuras and Hondas. Their application list isn't very up to date.

They worked perfectly as advertised, and made it a whole lot easier for me today. I highly recommend them!

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

I hope you realized that you're supposed to keep the brake fluid resevoir filled during the brake flushing to avoid sucking an air bubble into the lines...

JTso

iTrader: (2)

rmjjensen

and aren't you supposed to start bleeding at the wheel furthest from the master cylinder? the pattern should be more: rear pass -> rear driver -> front pass -> front driver

sounds like there was just air in the lines. Bleeding brakes could be a pain sometimes.

xizor

wow, 3 bottles to flush! One is enough if you don't waste too much.

xizor

no, the order is what kangjin said from the manual, start at front left and go clockwise

mg7726

don't worry, i pulled the same stunt when i worked on my brake job.

...ten years ago.

yuhoo22

i think i made the same mistake the first time i ever did the flush....

for getting it resolved though

moda_way

I used almost 2, but then, I was putting on new SS lines, so I wanted to make sure all the bubbles and crud was out.

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

I'm surprised you were able to get the air pocket out if you let the master cylinder run dry. Usually once air gets in there you have to bring the car to Honda.

Vegito

at least its nice and clean now... just drive carefully for a while till you're sure nothing is leaking..

dmbfan36_23

What size bottles is everyone referring to? 12oz or 32oz? I need to do mine and was going to get two 32oz bottles, is that enough? Or is one enough?

moda_way

2 of the pint sized bottles, so a 32oz would be plenty. Do the math and see which is more economical.

chhimp

I ran to this problem a year ago. You just have to do it until all the air is out. Pump, hold, open bleeder, close bleeder, and repeat step. It took a while, but the cyclinder was completely clear.

cwh82

Sorry to bring back an old thread. My brake pedal has been feeling spongy lately so I decided to flush the brake fluid. I bought two bottles of Honda DOT 3 and brought it to my local mechanic. He said he bled and flushed the brakes. The problem is, now the brakes feel even worse. I have to push the brake pedal almost twice as far just to stop the car. I am not very good with cars, what do you guys think could be the problem? thanks

suleman

dunno if it's been posted but proper way to flush a brake system is to first bleed all four wheels(RR, LR, RF, LF)

after a few of those goes fill up the master.

go through the process again.

do this ehh about 3times.

then fill up and enjoy.


cwh82: your symptoms could be caused by many different things including the dreaded contaminated system. or could be your powerbooster(master leaked into the booster). or as simple as your mechanic not bleeding it correctly. there's many more but it's kinda late and i'm studying for finals/browsing forums lol.

as a brake check employee(a brake/suspension shop texas wide) i would advise you to go to either honda(or in ya'lls case acura lol) or a brake shop(firestone, midas etc. would be good ideas since they service brakes often) and ask them to diag. your symptoms. since you say you are not that great/good with cars.

easy way to check if your system is contaminated is by looking at the master cylinders cap. if bloated take it to acura.

way to check if your masters leaking into powerboosters is by removing the vacuum line that connects to the booster and inserting a zip tie or something in there for a second and pull it out. if it's wet with ANYTHING take it into honda/shop of choice and tell them your findings.

curls

Wrong.

The Acura service manual for this car specifically states to do the following order: Front left, front right, rear right, rear left.

And, never let the resevoir go beyond the MIN line.

Please get your facts straight, especially considering this is a safety issue for all members here.

suleman

are you sure? because before i do any services on any car i look up the bleed procedure and i've done quite a few tsx's and they've RR LR RF LF

suleman

ok i retract my statement. our books are wrong.


when i went to work i looked it up in the book(bendix) and it said RR, LR, RF, LF. but when i actually went in and looked it up on MitchellOnDemand it said LF, RF, RR, LR. just to be sure i called sterling mccall acura(local acura place) and they told me the same thing.


this got me wondering "does the accord, tl, pilot etc. have the same bleeding order as the tsx?" so i go look them up in the bendix book and they all said RR, LR, RF,LF. then on Mitchell it said LF, RF, RR, LR!

all in all we've been bleeding most newer honda/acura's WRONG! due to wrong info! GAHHHHHH! doesn't look like it's hurt anything though because we haven't had any comebacks due to ABS or anything.

god i feel stupid now


ps: if anyone wants to know if this will keep happening i want to say it will not. hopefully. i did call it into my operations manager and he said he would tell the upper guys in the co. and tell them to fix it. don't know when this will happen but i know i won't be bleeding the cars with the info from the book.


MITCHELL FTW! haha

jlukja

I think the bleeding order is to start with the shortest brake line and end with the longest, which yields the FL, FR, RR, RL sequence.

npolite

I would suggest that you do one more or possibly two more bleed sequences. When air gets trapped in the lines it is an absolute pain to get it out. Even when you think you have it out of the line, there is a good chance there still is some in there. I can't remember how many cycles we had to do on my friends Volvo after he replaced the calipers and let the fluid run out completely.

xaznperswaesonx

just bring back bc im planing to install my SS brake line. i called 2 dealer ship and talk to tech and they all say start with the wheel thats furthest away from master cyclinder and work your way towards the shortest.

moda_way

That is incorrect. If you have the Service manual, it is Driver Front, Passenger Front, Passenger Rear, Driver Rear. Follow the manual created by Honda's engineers, not conventional wisdom.

ThirdLane

No. You always bleed starting from the caliper furthest from the MC.

Bleeding Process

1. Begin at the corner furthest from the driver and proceed in order toward the driver. (Right rear, left rear, right front, left front.)
2. Locate the bleeder screw at the rear of the caliper body (or drum brake wheel cylinder.) Remove the rubber cap from the bleeder screw – and don’t lose it!

3. Place the box-end wrench over the bleeder screw (10mm for discs, 8mm for drums.) An offset wrench works best – since it allows the most room for movement. (If you do not have an offset wrench, avoid pushing the wrench head to the bottom of the bleeder screw – since the wrench may interfere with other parts during movement. Allow a standard wrench to sit near the top of the bleeder screw contact point.)

4. Place one end of the plastic hose over the nipple of the bleeder screw.

5. Place the other end of the hose into the disposable bottle.

6. Place the bottle for waste fluid on top of the caliper body or drum unit. Hold the bottle with one hand and grasp the wrench with the other hand.

7. Instruct the assistant to "apply." The assistant should pump the brake pedal three times, hold the pedal down firmly, and respond with "applied." Instruct the assistant not to release the brakes until told to do so.

8. Loosen the bleeder screw with a brief ¼ turn to release fluid into the waste line. The screw only needs to be open for one second or less. (The brake pedal will "fall" to the floor as the bleeder screw is opened. Instruct the assistant in advance not to release the brakes until instructed to do so.)

9. Close the bleeder screw by tightening it.

10. Instruct the assistant to "release" the brakes. Note: do NOT release the brake pedal while the bleeder screw is open, as this will suck air back into the system!

11. The assistant should respond with "released."

12. Inspect the fluid within the waste line for air bubbles.

13. Continue the bleeding process (steps 11 through 16) until air bubbles are no longer present. Be sure to check the brake fluid level in the reservoir after bleeding each wheel! Add fluid as necessary to keep the level above the seam line. (Typically we repeat this process 5-10 times per wheel when doing a ‘standard’ bleed.)

14. Move systematically toward the driver – right rear, left rear, right front, left front - repeating the bleeding process at each corner. Be sure to keep a watchful eye on the brake fluid reservior! Keep it full!

15. When all four corners have been bled, spray the bleeder screw (and any other parts that were moistened with spilled or dripped brake fluid) with brake cleaner and wipe dry with a clean rag. (Leaving the area clean and dry will make it easier to spot leaks through visual inspection later!) Try to avoid spraying the brake cleaner DIRECTLY on any parts made of rubber or plastic, as the cleaner can make these parts brittle after repeated exposure.

16. Test the brake pedal for a firm feel. (Bleeding the brakes will not necessarily cure a "soft" or "mushy" pedal – since pad taper and compliance elsewhere within the system can contribute to a soft pedal. But the pedal should not be any worse than it was prior to the bleeding procedure!)

17. Be sure to inspect the bleeder screws and other fittings for signs of leakage. Correct as necessary.

18. Properly dispose of the used waste fluid as you would dispose of used motor oil. Important: used brake fluid should NEVER be poured back into the master cylinder reservoir! Dispose of the fluid as you would motor oil.

Also check out, http://www.advanceautoparts.com/engl...20011001bb.asp

curls

WRONG

Here is the scan from the Helm's (service) manual for the TSX: (note step 5 specifically)

xaznperswaesonx

thanks for the info .. good thing i never had them do any service work on my car.

moda_way

Please and get back to me.

moda_way

Thanks for scanning and proving I know how to read my service manual.

ThirdLane

I guess I stand corrected. It was always the conventional wisdom like you stated, that you bleed starting from furthest to shortest from the MC

moda_way

We a buddy of mine, who races a 350z in SCCA, helped me do my first set of pads, SS lines and a bleed, he said the same thing when I showed him the service manual, so you aren't alone. I always buy the service manuals to cars I own b/c some cars actually require you to hook up a proprietary machine to actuate the ABS to bleed the manifold, so trust me, there is less and less standard process with electronics in the engine bay.