TSXTuner

Starting a new thread. If you have respectful dialog or questions. The village
idiot can post to himself but I'm not reading his.

This week on vacation, different roads no highway, off hours
low traffic, playing with it, driving it has hard I can and stay out
jail but never disrespecting the machine. This is what I got.

This won't go in the permanent record. The record is only the same
repeatable daily commute I do that has historical reference. This is just
for example. It looks like the 24.5 first record was the low deviation.
It's going to be better than I thought.

jlukja

May I respecfully ask a question regarding your graph? How do you have two data points (one for Amsoil and one for Redline) on the same day?

TSXTuner

Anyway to recap a few points, in stock form before mods which
started at 10k, the best I did in local driving was 24 if I tried, usually 23.5.

I didn't keep hard records at the time, my recollection is CAI lost 1,
then tires lost over 1, net I was down 2-3 and this continued for 1
year 15-20 k miles.

Bottom line
on the day of changing oil mpg step changed first time over 22 in over
a year. If that isn't obvious, it did it again from redline to amsoil.
Now if your trying to document .5, why bother, all sorts of things
are operating around the noise level of .5 mpg, this is more than
statistically significant.

In modified form I'm doing ~2 mpg better than stock.
I've got a long time left on Fuzions then next I'm going to
low hysterisis /rolling resisitance silica tread. The only one I
know of for sure is Pzero Nero at this time, I have to check out the
Toyo's, Bridgestone doesn't offer any silica type in aftermarket tires.

TSXTuner

Good catch, fixed.

TSXTuner

Found three, Proxes 4, T1R, and T1-S have silica tread.

The next issue for rolling resistance is the matter of weight.
P235/40-18 proxes 4 is 23 lb and T1R is 24 lb, T1-S is 22.9 lb.
Good thing, my preference is Proxes 4.

Proxes 4 :
- "Generation S" silica-reinforced, high-grip tread compound
- Unidirectional tread design High angle tread grooves to evacuate water
- Paired shoulder blocks to increase cornering grip
- Curving center rib to enhance directional stability

NightShredder

Just wondering how many miles driven on each day? I assume it is pretty much the same considering it is the same rout, but how far is it?

Dan Martin

Why doesn't Honda use Amsoil from the factory and spec it in the service guide? The reason why they don't use it is because there aren't any meaningful gains.

I guarantee that if Honda found out today that they could gain 20% fuel economy across their entire lineup of vehicles because of a simple change of oil, it would be headline news in tomorrow's newspaper. Can you imagine how much fuel that would save worldwide? Honda would buy Amsoil, patent the hell out of it and sell it to all the other manufacturers.

Even if there was a 5% fuel economy increase they'd be all over it.


I'm glad you're happy with it, but don't get so aggressive when people question your testing methods. The claims you make are big news so it's understandable that people will want to find out how you got your numbers.

TinkySD

Here are the questions that jump out as me as being uncontrolled and possibly confounding. Don't get me wrong, i'm all for getting more "free" power and efficiency from my car.

1) were tire inflations checked regularly and was there any variation. Did you put more air in part way through a test cycle?

2) were all tests performed using the same set of tires?

3) Were there noticeable patterns of weather difference? Humidity/temperature can affect MPG greatly.

TSXTuner care to share you input?

joerockt

^^^^Pretty much what I was eluding to in the other thead.

There was an episode of Mythbusters were they wanted to see if a car was more fuel efficient with either the windows up, a/c on, or a/c off and windows down. The setup was two identical Explorers, both loaded with the same exact fuel, going the same speed around a track and running till they ran out of fuel. I think they even weighed passengers and camera equipment to make sure they had the same weights in each SUV.

Turned out to be a wash, but the point to this is that this was a very controled test. To be honest, I would love to see the exact same test run with the same controls using Amsoil/Mobil 1 and any Conventional. Now the results of THAT test with those controls I would probably buy.

sauceman

Big

And I also agree with Dan. Been wondering the same thing.

Usually, if it looks too good to be true, then it's not true.

NightShredder

I think Dan hit the nail on the head.

TSXTuner

It's roughly 45 per day plus whatever I do after work.
There is a 2 mile jaunt on the interstate, which is mostly accelerating
to 90 and then exiting. It's my chance to run it through the
gears. I wouldn't count it as any highway miles.

TSXTuner

I'm neglegent there.

The last 12 months are on same tires.

I added air when it got cold around dec, then april to may I found them overinflated and dropped it from 35 to 32.

I just checked since you asked, they are 26 all around and need
air. The recent data is underinflated.

We have the full four seasons. But during redline to amsoil is similar, hot
and dry. The before redline is moderate srping weather but like I said
that mpg was consistent for over the full year.
We have the tropicals storms cooling things off here just effecting the lastest
data point which I mentioned won't be used.

TSXTuner

It's not that unusual, I've heard lots of people claim 18-20%. I never
pursued it because of cost but then the loss of mpg from modifications
and then the gas prices motivated me to try.

I have alot of faith in the observed step change under my controls
and repeatability. I do not disagree that more time is needed, either.
But it looks good.

There is some economic balance at which something like an amsoil
standard can happen, fuel has just been a low priority, evident the
SUV phenomenon.

TSXTuner

This is a huge can of worms getting into how business works.

Bottom line they do the minimum required at the minimum cost.
You have amsoil patent issues which may not be a big deal or easy
for a major company like mobil to modify the molecule enough. You have
the politics of shutting down the entire conventional oil industry, building a new one.

Maybe they figure all this will be completely leaped frogged by new
propulsion and aren't planning on building a new motor oil industy.

It would be slow to come, economically mandated externally or otherwise forced by the market is about the only way.
It could be coming. Oil is up from 20 to 60 300%, gas is
only up 100%. I don't know the ratio, if it takes 2 barrels of oil to get 1
barrel of refined gas, gas should be up 600%.
It's being temporarily manipulated down poliitcally. Gas is going up huge.

Take silica tread for example. Michelin had it, everyone else figured it
out from chemical analysis and started doing it widespread in OEM tires
since 1995. It's still rare in the aftermarket. You have a delicate process
that needs all new control systems and maybe huge capital
expenditures in older factories, they have to have sources for new
materials, just inventoring one new material is huge cost, it directly
adds material cost. We had a big problem because a processing agent
wasn't legal in the US and then a new version of it came later.
A huge can of worms. Very slow going.

TSX Hokie

For me, AMSOIL's fuel economy improvement was enough to offset the MPG reduction I got when I put summer tires on my car. Any increased MPG from AMSOIL is just icing on the cake; the real selling point is that they recommend ONE YEAR or 35,000 MILES between oil changes. It pays for itself fast.

And FYI, an independent lab did a controlled experiment and got an 8.2% improvement in fuel economy using AMSOIL vs. dino oil on a diesel truck:

LINK

TSXTuner

They have hedging with futures and options that can stabilize pump price but at some point that game ends. Futures expire. They can only ramp up pump price
at such a pace or all hell breaks loose. Pop it, get use to it, pop it again.
Some people are talking about mid $80's but you never know about markets.

Crude oil :

Dan Martin

Honda has a mandate to increase fuel economy and reduce emissions from all their products. Read this quote from Takeo Fukui at this year's NAIAS:
If Honda could spend $20 on Amsoil instead of dino-oil and meet their mandate, they wouldn't be putting billions into R&D on hybrid technology such as that used in the Accord and Civic.

If Honda said "all of our cars will now be using only Amsoil" you can bet bet there will be no shortage of companies willing to serve them. This is what is made from a standard 42g barrel of oil:
So 1.1% of all oil that comes out of the ground ends up in lubricants. When you factor all the lubricants that are made from that, there's probably 1/100th of a percent that actually ends up in cars. The oil industry is not going to shut down because of a movement to synthetic oils in the auto industry.

Gas prices aren't 600% undervalued, all the political pressure in the world couldn't pull that off. You've got to remember that only 43% of the price you pay at the pump goes to oil, 31% goes to taxes, 13% to refining, 13% to distribution and profits. The prices currently are undervalued but by about 16% (national avg is $2.32 but it should be $2.69).


Now where were we...

Oh right, Amsoil!

If Amsoil works for you, great. I'm just saying that I'm skeptical. I assume that the major OEMs would have switched long ago if it could do everything they and you say it does. 20% more fuel economy, more power, less emissions all for maybe $20/car.

I'm sure it lubricates better than conventional motor oil but that's all it does, it's just oil. How much can oil account for in the fuel economy equation?

joerockt

There is no way I would leave any oil in any car for 35,000 miles. One of the most absurd claims they make...

xizor

100%, good skeptical advice from Dan. I don't doubt the post's experience, but as w/ the turbonator, if it was that amazing, wouldn't every car manufacturer figure it out (or at least the oil competition).

TSX Hokie

Folks, AMSOIL ain't the Turbonator. AMSOIL has data from controlled tests conducted by independent labs to support every claim they make. This outrageous '20%' MPG improvement number came from the OP, not AMSOIL. AMSOIL claims 'up to 5%' on their website.

As for why don't OEMs sell cars with AMSOIL already in them? Because it's the most expensive consumer synthetic oil, and the almighty buck rules all, even at 'green' Honda. They also have the most bizarre distribution system that is almost pyramid scheme-esque, so I imagine large companies are hesitant to work with them. AMSOIL is an example of my favorite kind of company, where they spend all their money on engineering and neglect marketing and sales.

Long haul truckers swear by AMSOIL, and there isn't a group that cares more about fuel economy than them. Hate on the OP all you want, all I know is that I get 34 MPG when I take highway trips, and I only have to change my oil once a year and my filter twice a year. If you want to keep filling up with dino oil every 3k miles, be my guest.

TinkySD

So hokie: where do you buy amsoil and for how much?

JTso

iTrader: (2)

I wouldn't mind trying amsoil but curious to know the price as well. I'm not looking for long oil change interval or better mileage. They are important but not my main criteria. I'm more interested in better protection.

TSX Hokie

I paid about $100 for 12 quarts of 0W-30 Series 2000 from some random website. I think you can find dealers that will charge less than that. The stupid thing about amsoil is how they want everyone that buys from them to pay $30/year to become an 'official dealer', and if you don't, they charge you a huge markup. Mobil 1 is about half the price of amsoil (because you can buy Mobil1 in jugs at Walmart), and Mobil1 ain't cheap.

I am cheap with most things, but since oil is the only thing keeping my car's engine from melting, I don't mind paying a bit more for better peace of mind.

NightShredder

[QUOTE=Dan Martin]
I assume that the major OEMs would have switched long ago if it could do everything they and you say it does. 20% more fuel economy, more power, less emissions all for maybe $20/car.
QUOTE]

Even if it cost Honda $100/car to use Amisol the free market would dictate that it would be done. $100/car for a company to add 5%-20% efficiency to a car is a steal.

Alin10123

You dont have to pay $30 to become a dealer. You can always just become a preffered customer. It only costs $10 bucks for a 6 month membership and you save over 10%.

Dan Martin

You need a membership to buy oil?

Whoever came up with that concept is definitely on the pipe.

jlukja

lol. I think whoever falls for it is on the pipe too.

TSXTuner

that's what I did, prefered cust discount, something like $10 for 6 month membership.

A gallon of series 2000 0-30 is ~$24, same as mobil 1 at walmart
but then you pay shipping.

TSXTuner

Correction, price is 26.60 1 gal
6.70 1 qt
10.00 pref custumer
sales tax
shipping

sauceman

How much for shipping?? If it's like other TV pyramid-type companies, shipping will close to double up your cost.

TSX Hokie

Shipping isn't cheap either. I wish they would ditch their ridiculous distribution system and just stock their oil at Pep Boys like everyone else.

Alin10123

Shipping isn't that bad for the weight that you are trying to ship.

Also... you dont have to pay for a membership. You just loose out on membership benefits like %% off of your entire order. You do save a lot of money with the membership. So that alone is worth it.

Dan Martin

If you save 10% off your order and it costs $10 for 6 months, doesn't that mean you'd need to buy at least $200 worth of oil in a year to make it worthwhile?

JTso

iTrader: (2)

I would be more incline to try it if I can buy them from my local stores. What about selling them in stores at competitive pricing? If they are as good as they claim, I would guess the volume sale could offset the slightly lower selling price and take away Mobil1's market.

joerockt

Where's WinterWaves? We could use a dissertation on why Amsoil dosent market their products in stores. I'm sure he can come up with a plan for them.

TSX Hokie

If they distributed oil in normal retail outlets, you wouldn't get the pleasure of a mullet-sportin' AMSOIL salesman in the comfort of your home:

(pic taken from AMSOIL's own website....you can't make this stuff up)


Laugh at their lousy business plan all you want though, they did produce the world's first API-certified full synthetic oil, and have continued to produce the best synthetics ever since.

jlukja

Dan Martin

No wonder it's so good... it's mullet grease!

TSXTuner

6.70 for 5 qts.
8.90 for 10 qts.