93Kewl

I have experienced alot of types of people in my internet forum travels, you my friend take the cake in the immaturity and insecurity areas.

Where the F*ck do you see the word Saab in my last post?
Sheesh!

Once again you deem it correct to misquote whatever I have said. Guity once, guilty many times. Heck, at least I know MY blood pressure is ok, is yours?


BTW Larch --

I was kidding!

2Focus,

Hmmm, what the heck does the "torque" issue have to do with the fact that Toyota's/Lexus' have been ranked higher than Acura?

2focus

I hate explaining my posts, it loses its effectiveness. but i was just pointing out that you only look at one catagory in choosing cars...
because your statements like Larch should get a toyota because its reliability is #1 and saab is better because it has more low end torque.

93Kewl

You should really read a little more before making statements like that.

I think the 9-3 is a better car: 1. Yes because it's low-end torque is JUST like my CL-S with Auto Tranny (same cannot be said for a TSX with auto) 2. The Saab 9-3 configured is contains all the luxury features that I have in my CL-S and more (same cannot be said for the TSX) 3. European driving experience for less than "BMW" prices. 4. I have tired of the Japanese "cookie cutter" mentality applied to their cars and want something different for my next car.

Once again why would I wanna pay good money for a TSX when it's not gonna make me happy? Just because the car does well in the twisties? Because the car has to be driven like it's stolen just to get some excitement? Maybe because it has the Acura name and I need to follow blindly and not give any other car the benefit of the doubt that they could provide MORE of what I wan't in a car?

It's a wonder that more people aren't buying TSX's over Saab's, G35's, BMW's, Audi's, etc. These cars apparently have nothing to offer anyone.

larchmont

Right.

A lot of what's going on here is we're flaming each other for what we care about, and what we like. Disguised somewhat as a debate about cars. Along the way we're actually learning a couple of things about Saabs anyway.....

Santacruz

yeah it sounds like your blood pressure is just fine!?

It's not what you wrote but what you meant? You wrote a post rehashing an old discussion about saab vs. acura reliability and nobody is supposed to read into that anything other than you think larch's only critera for a car purchase is reliability?

And what's with your need to call people immature and insecure anyway? I'm quite sure you're very refined, your table manners are exquisite, and I'm sure you put the toilet seat back down when you're through. But I wasn't aware that you wrote the handbook on forums. Frankly it doesn't really matter to me how you regard my manners.

2focus

1. that's why i'm confused, you put so much emphasis on low-end torque 'feel', although you are not ACTUALLY faster.
2. Saab probably does have more features than the TSX, because you are paying for them. I read that you only drove 11k miles on your 3 years old CL…since you don’t drive much, why would you care that your steering wheel buttons don’t light up at night?
3. This is the part I’m most confused about…”European driving experience for less than "BMW" prices” when you said european driving experience, do you mean a FIAT or Renault? I really doubt the 9-3 with its torque steer (thanks to your personal favorite, low-end torque) FWD config is anything like the BMW.

See, I won’t pick on you if you just come out and say the 9-3 is better in a few categories that you prefer in cars…instead just dismissing the TSX is a better overall car. I won’t tell you that TSX is my first choice for a car either…it’s just the best car in my CURRENT situation.

oh yeah, hate to point it out but you were praising how Saab is having all these sales...so the price of a Saab 9-3 is not that much different than a TSX...but now i see that you are looking at the 2004 9-3 Aero...i doubt it has all these incentives...unless you are waiting till next year to purchase your car. then, i'm wrong here

and finally, i only made that blunt statement ,”that saab is better because it has more low end torque”, because you first made the statement that “Larch should get a Toyota because it’s #1 in reliability”…I thought I explained once…and I thought you would understand by now…

93Kewl

Once again my friend, go re-read the thread. I personally NEVER posted anything regarding Saab vs Acura reliabilty. ONLY that Saab wasn't as bad as people here were making them out to be (as evidenced by Larch's "stats".)

Don't read into anything. Larch said his NUMBER 1 priority was relability. Plus, I was joking, as I respect Larch and his decision to go with a TSX.

No, but unfortunately some people aren't able to conduct themselves from being other than rabid fanboys instead of arguing objectively.

Oh, btw, I originally posted the thread topic and url to provide an "interesting" look at both cars.

93Kewl

Ok 2focus, here it goes:

Look, you can quote all the numbers in the world about 0-60, etc it's just from first hand experience that from a dead stop, the 9-3 pulled off the line stongly in a fashion similiar to the CL. It's Turbo 4 is real sweet and doesn't have to rev to 4000 rpm to start singing. Driving preference, that is all.

I doesn't matter how much I drive. If I am going to buy a car for 28K or 32K, I don't wan't something that has less "features" than what I am currently used to. I like the fact the Saab has auto down side mirrors, memory seats, power passenger seats, parking assist, bi-leveling Xenons, etc. Lighted buttons? Yeah, ok, that's kinda cool.

Read the reviews, and you will find that Saab has made good on the effort to provide a car that can compete with BMW, Audi, and yes, even MB. Don't beleive me? Read the reviews.

So in my view, how is the TSX a better car?

And in my situation the 9-3 is the best car. Heck I really loved the G35 coupe and wanted to pull the trigger on that beauty but couldn't because it had no trunk space (this will be my only car).

Yep. I think I am going to reconsider..the $4000 cash rebate is too hard to pass up.

larchmont

Hmmmmm. Sounds familiar......

What other car have I been reading that about? Oh, it's right on the tip of my tongue......

wishiwere

Holy crap, Santacruz. I've never interjected on other people's conversations before, but this one is just over the edge. You took a clearly sarcastic comment by kewl, looked really, really deeply into it, found nothing there at all, and then pulled a totally inappropriate and ridiculous nugget of bullshit out of your arse. Try to calm down, just a bit. How does a saracastic comment about buying a toyota or lexus translate to getting a saab? That's some neat logic you have there (and yes, I have read all of 93kewl's posts about the 93, and no, I still don't understand why liking cars other than acuras is a bloody sin to you). Anyways, I know I can't speak for everyone here, but posts like that don't add anything to the forum and just waste everyone's time. Thanks!

rzee

Dude, try doing that in a BMW or IS300 forum, I can guarateed you the same comments.

You go in a car forum dedicated to a certain car to promote a different car, you are asking for it. Frankly, I think this forum has been more civil than all the other ones I've seen.

ySL

I think we are more inclined to accept the fact that MB,BMW,Lexus,Audi,Infiniti may have more prestige than Acura, but get more defensive when someone tries to include Saab in that same category.

So what does that say about the Saab?

are they just not that appealing? or are we not familiar with the new line of Saabs?

93Kewl

From the multiple posts I have seen here (excluding those who have actually taken the time to t-drive one) this looks to be the case. Heck, I wasn't familiar with the new line either and as a matter of fact always thought Saabs were really ugly.

Santacruz

I appreciate your feedback and I apologize if you think I have overreacted...umm, wait...no I don't.

I'm spending my time on ACURA-TSX.com looking, as rzee said, for a forum about the TSX and not the Saab 9-3. I don't think it's a sin to like cars other than Acuras or to talk about other cars. But I'm annoyed with eneptly disguised "innocent" discussions designed to diss the TSX.

I dissagree with your sentiment that I've looked too deeply at Kewl's comment. I think 93Kewl enjoys arguing, I mean engaging in "interesting" conversations about the superiority of the 9-3. Would you enter a saab forum, spend hours in "healthy" discussions about how saab owners decisions are flawed, and expect anything less then an argument? No, I don't think you would.

larchmont

(Sees chance for something constructive....)

Interesting. Besides looks, what do you find on any significant differences between old 9-3 and new 9-3 -- I mean, not in terms of "paper factoids" (we know all that), but how the car actually feels and behaves?

That would be interesting for us to hear.

93Kewl

This is where you consistently make your mistake. I never, ever said that your decision to buy a TSX is flawed or bad. I have always taken the stand that the TSX is not for me. When people then come on an question why I chose a 9-3 over a TSX or start making statements about things they are unfamiliar about, that's when the $hit flies. Some people just can't understand that the TSX is not the car for everyone - even if you are in the market for a 4dr sports sedan.

Larch,

Can't shed any light on that. Remember, in the last 7 years I have been in a CL and Mitsu 3000GT.

Roadrunner_RENAMED

And I still feel that way! "FUGLY!" The good thing is that it gives us a broader car market to pick from.
If we all wanted the same car and could afford it, there would only be 1 car!
93Kewl, I appreciate your insight, but I still don't prefer the Saab just as you do! Please keep us posted after you get the car.
(3000gt eh?, my previous to the NSX was the Stealth ES. Small world.)

Count Blah

FWIW, I saw an M45 in a parking lot last weekend. It looked MUCH better in person than in the pictures I've seen.

93Kewl

Ok, somebody explain these numbers (according to Edmunds):

2003 Linear 9-3 (175HP, 195lb@2500)

0-60 : 8.1 secs
1/4 Mile: 16.18 @ 87.49


2004 TSX (200HP, 166 Torque)
0-60: 8.3 secs
1/4 Mile: 16.3 @ 86mph

And this isn't even the 210hp Vector/Arc.

To those of you that question why I didn't choose the TSX over a 9-3 but couldn't understand the "torque" and the fact that the 9-3 "isn't actually faster":

This is not a bad statement or "dissing" the TSX. Just a different tastes in driving style and preferences. A great review by Edmunds and I agree with every point of it. The TSX - a great car with great aspirations, however it may not (nor should it) fit the driving style of some.

35kcdn

Three things.

1) The numbers from Edmonds were done on different days and probably by different drivers, thus the difference in track numbers.

2) The Motortrend article found of the homepage has the TSX edging out the 9-3 Arc on the same track day, by the same drivers....explain that one

3) Edmonds posted track time is the slowest we've seen from a mag.

The TSX has been proven at the dyno by one poster that the car is more like 220hp and 185 tq, this expalins why Motortrend had the TSX edging out the 210hp/221 tqu 9-3 Arc. Torque gets you started, hp makes you move. The TSX's drag coefficient helps along with a slicker shifter.

93Kewl

the 9-3ss 2.0t(175hp) Linear was dyno'd at 195hp which is a 20hp more and I assume the same should be true for the 210HP 2.0T engine which would rate it at 230HP.

I'll see if I can find some "official" numbers.

edit---> here is a site that dyno's the 2.0T at 260HP!
http://www.maptun.com/93_205_1.php?link=93_205_1

ClutchPerformer

That's nice, but it doesn't explain this:

Let's not mag race unless all cars are in the same article (or otherwise tested under the same conditions).

Jaeger

So let me see if I get this straight...

1) You don't hate the TSX, but you have come to the settled conclusion that the car is NOT for you.

2) You have test driven the SAAB 9-3 and this it is a wonderful car for the many reasons you have repeated ad nauseam and have come to the settled conclusion that the car IS for you.

My question is - why are you here? You know the TSX is not for you, which is all well and good, so why hang around in a TSX forum? Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that you don't have a right to be here, because you have as much right as any. I just can't figure out why you want to be.

I have test driven the Saab 9-3 and come to the very settled conclusion that while there are things I like about it, it is definitely not for me. For the life of me I can't imagine heding over the the Saab forum (if there is one) and repeatedly proclaiming the virtues of the TSX at every opportunity. It just wouldn't interest me to do so. And it's not about being free to discuss other makes and models which is done all the time. Rather, it apears that you have some kind of agenda or obsession that compels you to incessantly trumpet your boundless adoration for the Saab 9-3 in an Acura TSX forum.

So what is it? Could it be that you are attempting to convert the TSX faithful and have them replace their choice with yours? Or could it be that you just kind of enjoy being provocative and getting a rise out of people? I tend to think it is more likely the latter than the former.

Jaeger

PS - And no - I don't own a TSX, just in case you want to trot out that tired old song about how I'm being "defensive" about my car.

rzee

larchmont

I'm going to offer a self-serving answer -- I mean, self-serving on behalf of our site.
It's unlikely Kewl himself would put it this way even if it's true, so we've got to do it.

Look: This is a great site, I would humbly assert, with an unusually neat cast of characters. We're reasonably bright, we're sometimes funny, sometimes stupid (usually on purpose), and we have a lot of fun. I can well imagine that being appealing to someone like Kewl, without any odd or questionable motivations being involved.

So there.

And maybe Kewl would say something like that after all.

We'll see.

Jaeger

I certainly agree that this a great forum with broad appeal, but it does seem a little odd to frequent a forum dedicated to a specific vehicle that is not to your liking. And it's not just his presence here that baffles me so much as his choice of this forum to constantly bang the 9-3 drum. And bang it loudly.

Again, Larch, could you see yourself going over to a Saab forum and repeatedly telling everyone who will listen what a great car the TSX is and why, for you, it is a decidedly superior choice to the 9-3? I kinda doubt it. You don't seem the type. Why anyone would feel that an Acura TSX forum needs a full-time Saab apologist is beyond me.

Cheers,

Jaeger

finalheaven

Another theory which im sure most everyone if true will deny is that he just has to prove to himself that he is making the right decision by defending it against the tsx. Since he knows that the TSX is a great car, he might be unsure of himself or would just want to defend himself in choosing a 9-3 over the tsx.

Then again i might be COMPLETELY off.

93Kewl

Let's put this bluntly. Don't read much into why I "hang" over here. Without writing War and Peace about this, let me just say that I started out with genuine interest in the TSX. Even when I decided not to go with it, I was always interested in what my fellow CL-S owners had to say about the car. As time went on, I basically stuck around because a larch so eloquently put it:

Now mind you unlike some of the "dreaded" members that have been banned from this site, I don't go around creating threads insulting the TSX. I have participated in threads that dealt with comparisons, directly with topics that interested me, or topics that I could provide information to others (I like doing that).



You guys remember Garrett Morris (SNL)? You know..."baseball has been very very good to me!"? Well, in my case, Honda and Acura have been very very good to me. I really want Acura to succeed and I like keeping my finger on the pulse of the Acura community. It just so happens that the TSX is in the "class" of car that I am currently interested in at this time of my life so the conversation here still remains rather stimulating regardless of the fact that I won't be buying a TSX.

Some have mentioned the rediculous idea that "I want to convince" others to not buy a TSX and buy a 9-3. This is just plain silly and I won't give any more credence to that statement. Just take it from me, it couldn't be more farther from the truth.

Just curious, if I was here "banging the '04 TL drum" would you guys be so admant in questioning my motives?

Another statement so far from the truth....

ySL

wow...93kewl even you have to admit this was very nicely written

larchmont

Wow, he did.

93Kewl

Yes, nicely written. But who gives a crap? Praising the 9-3 every chance I get? You know what? The un-informed members who choose to make statements that are not fact based or just plain incorrect cause the theads to move in the way that they have.

Let take a sample shall we?

Newbie starts a thread: What do you guys think about the TSX? or TSX vs <insert car here>

93Kewl responds: Oh yes, I t-drove one, didn't feel it had enough low-end spunk for me.

A Wise-ass TSX member: Oh, I see you choose the 9-3 in your sig, YOU KNOW THE 9-3 isn't faster.

And then the thread progresses.....

How does this translate into praising the 9-3 every chance I get?
Are you referring to the "For Your Reading Pleasure", where I found a nice article stating pros and cons for each car? I think that's the only thread I have started here.

Ya know what's funny, I could substitute in my sig Next: to read '04 TL and you would still attack like piranha even though one of your most popular threads on the news section is concerning the TL.

Also, I have noticed (as alot of you have also) that some of the other threads here have been getting pretty boring. At the very least, guys like myself and those "well-speakers-of-other-cars" have given you guys a chance to be active. Shit, as with any site, no matter what the product, how many "Geez I just got my new <insert product>" threads can you take?

ySL

You know that's not true...people here just don't respect the Saab as much as MB/BMW/Lexus/Audi/Infiniti...It's not that people are so defensive about Acura but more about the image of Saab and how it's just not that desirable when compared to Acura's other competitors.

but I do hope you post up some pics and give us a full report when you get your 9-3...just for curiosity since you've made your presence very well-known

93Kewl

It's statements like that start the ball rolling. Whatever.

"Welcome to the State of Independence"

larchmont

I think ySL put it too harshly. It's not that we don't "respect" the car, but that understandably it's not a kind of car that tends to stand out in any respect in most of our minds. (Soopa excepted, of course!)

ySL

I think larch has left us with a nice conclusion to the entire saab v. tsx debate

9-3

I just bought a 9-3 Arc and it is an amazing car. That being said, I drove the A4, 3 series, TSX and 9-3. They are all great cars. I would drive any of them, and anyone who has one of these cars should be proud. The Saab was just my favorite, and I bought it. Comparing cars that are all within tenths of seconds 0-60 etc through magazine articles is asinine. I get tons of compliments on mine, and I am sure you all get tons of compliments on your TSX's. As long as you enjoy driving your car, why worry about what everyone else is driving? If you did your homework and drove them all, then you should be happy with your decision.

ySL

Thank you for your insight...now get the fcuck out

lol j/k... I'm sure in a couple of years we'll all forget about Saab as the hatchback sedan but appreciate the new one a whole lot more

Jason

Well said.

MotownTSX

My next auto will be a Saab. The refrigerated glove-box will solve my, "now how do I keep my wodka cold while I am driving" problems.

93Kewl

LMAO!!!!!

Once again....