Yet another TSX vs Mazda 6 experience
07-24-2003, 09:27 AM
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Yet another TSX vs Mazda 6 experience
Hi all,
This is such an old topic that I feel a little guilty typing it up, but I want to share it nonetheless. I am no longer in the market for a new car but my father in-law is in town from China for a month and I figured that a good source for sh*ts and giggles is to take him out test driving all sorts of cars. Test driving is practically unheard of in China, yet.
So I test drove a TSX this past weekend for his enjoyment. I had driven a TSX on multiple occasions so I was already familiar with how nice of a car it is. I won't repeat that experience here since most of you have TSX info coming out your ears or actually own one.
Yesterday I had a lunch meeting with a client near Tysons Corner in Virginia that concluded at 2pm. Driving by the Mazda dealership I saw a red RX8 being rolled into the showroom. I stopped in to take a look at it and when a salesperson approached me, I thought "what the heck" and asked for a test drive in a Mazda 6 V6 SE 5-speed in blue with 17" wheels and all the options. They had 3 on the lot, the miracles of vehicle availability.
With a sticker of about $25,500 fully loaded the price was certainly very attractive, and the salesman was hungry to deal. The salesman had to drive it out of the back lot and into the prep lane for a shift knob to be installed for the test drive. In the process, he managed to stall the engine no less than five times. Now, he claims that he is a terrible stick driver, and I would later decide that it wasn't entirely his fault.
While waiting for him to retrieve a shift knob, I got to play with everything inside the car. I could only identify two really negative points about the car's interior: the mostly black color scheme is drab looking for a $25K car, and the center stack has the same level of premiumness as a $99 boombox at Circuit City. Well, maybe $199, but definitely more Aiwa than Onkyo. Other small complaints include a "flashlight behind jolly-ranchers candy" look to the instrument cluster, and the 12-hour flight between the climate controls and readouts. Though I got negative vibes about how some other things were implemented in the 6, I was careful to not identify "different" as being "inferior". What I really liked is the additional cup holders in the front door map pockets, and the seats were comfortable and supportive for my "I am on a diet" @ss. Other things I liked are the gas struts on the trunk hinge, rear seats that automatically fold down by themselves, and a very smooth rear deck underside due to no rear deck speakers nor trunk springs.
On the outside the car looked positively sharp. With the SE's built-in lip spoiler, body kit, and a "sporty grill", the blue 6 looked great, more agressive than the TSX. I really like the shade of blue that it has, with a slight hint of purple.
With a shiftknob installed I was ready for my test drive. Release parking brake, ease in gas, ease out clutch, stall engine. I was instantly embarassed, especially since I had offered to drive when my salesman stalled the engine for the third time in 100 feet. Open mouth, insert foot. Maintaining my composure, I fired up the engine again and this time gave it more gas, and the car lurched forward. Smoothness will come, I promised myself.
Getting out to the main road, I press the gas firm, but not hard, and proceeded to wait for the engine to wow me with the ease of everyday-driving that has become the argument for everything V6 against everything I4. The tach dipped to 500 before catching on and the car started accelerating with the feror a Toyota Prius I test drove two weeks ago. Grabbing second gear, the car lurches forward on the shift, then third, then back to second as I let the engine do some braking before rounding the corner onto a winding 2-lane road. By this time I am having serious doubts about my driving abilities, because so far I've been able to extract an amount of performance out of the Mazda 6 that would present a "clear and present danger" to a pack of VW TDI drivers.
Should I have ordered the grilled chicken instead? Nay say I! Press forth and unleash the 220 Arabians!
My engineering instincts kicked in and I started analyzing the cause of my displeasure: the clutch mates near the start of the pedal's upward travel, not near the end as I am used to with Hondas, and the gas pedal is fairly insensitive to inputs until 1/3 way into its downward swing. With these revelations in mind, I launched fairly hard at every stop sign I came to but by the fourth time I had still yet to produce one satisfying run and my salesman was starting to look very uncomfortable. "Focus Daniel-San." I did one last pull from a stop light. I slipped the clutch with the engine near 3500RPMs, and pressed the gas fairly heavily as soon as the clutch caught. The car did accelerate admirably but I felt like I was trying to spank a 3-cylindered Metro into submission rather than basking in the V6 promised land of awesome powerful fear-nothing-because-God-is-on-your-side low end torque on the same order of adrenaline-inducing magnitude as riding in a loaded run away beer truck. "This is a V6?", "Yea, why?", "Does it have drive-by-wire throttle?", "No it is cabel driven", "Oh..."
With only 15 miles on the odometer, I felt a bit guilty, so I decided to use the 4 gears that I haven't destroyed yet. Running around in 3rd gear I took the car up to about 60, then back to second for a bit of engine breaking groung around a 30 mile curve at about 45, then back on the throttle coming out of it. Spying the 40mph sign on the side of the road I passed at 65mph I breaked and asked "Are there cops on this road?", "If there are any they right here, after that curve we just passed." Wonderful.
The car handled well, though it got a bit nervous when breaking in the middle of a corner because the suspension settled a lot, requiring more steering correction than I anticipated. The tires are identical to those on the TSX. Grip was great in the dry when driving semi-aggressively as I did, with no detectable understeer to my limited driving senses. The suspension feels softer compared to the TSX, yielding a more compliant ride, and about as quiet as a TSX for a given road condition. I felt comfortable driving it fast around corners. I haven't flogged it hard so I can't say for certain in comparison to a TSX in terms of relative abilities near the edge.
We pulled back into the dealer, I asked for a business card, and was gone in two minutes.
I really liked the Mazda 6 when it was sitting still. In comparison the old 626 was horrible ("2002, Priced to go!!!" said 10 such cars in the back lot). I couldn't find much to complain about in terms of quality of materials, and the ergonomics is while not perfect but above anything Ford has managed to build for its own vehicles. Maybe I got a bad sample, maybe I really should have ordered the grilled chicken, but the Mazda 6 in motion was less than satisfying. If there are really 220HP in that engine, they need to wake up at less than 3000RPMs. Maybe they can be whipped into shape with a reconfigured throttle arrangement. But as it stands, the 140HP in my '92 Accord's I4 feels a lot more willing to work.
This is such an old topic that I feel a little guilty typing it up, but I want to share it nonetheless. I am no longer in the market for a new car but my father in-law is in town from China for a month and I figured that a good source for sh*ts and giggles is to take him out test driving all sorts of cars. Test driving is practically unheard of in China, yet.
So I test drove a TSX this past weekend for his enjoyment. I had driven a TSX on multiple occasions so I was already familiar with how nice of a car it is. I won't repeat that experience here since most of you have TSX info coming out your ears or actually own one.
Yesterday I had a lunch meeting with a client near Tysons Corner in Virginia that concluded at 2pm. Driving by the Mazda dealership I saw a red RX8 being rolled into the showroom. I stopped in to take a look at it and when a salesperson approached me, I thought "what the heck" and asked for a test drive in a Mazda 6 V6 SE 5-speed in blue with 17" wheels and all the options. They had 3 on the lot, the miracles of vehicle availability.
With a sticker of about $25,500 fully loaded the price was certainly very attractive, and the salesman was hungry to deal. The salesman had to drive it out of the back lot and into the prep lane for a shift knob to be installed for the test drive. In the process, he managed to stall the engine no less than five times. Now, he claims that he is a terrible stick driver, and I would later decide that it wasn't entirely his fault.
While waiting for him to retrieve a shift knob, I got to play with everything inside the car. I could only identify two really negative points about the car's interior: the mostly black color scheme is drab looking for a $25K car, and the center stack has the same level of premiumness as a $99 boombox at Circuit City. Well, maybe $199, but definitely more Aiwa than Onkyo. Other small complaints include a "flashlight behind jolly-ranchers candy" look to the instrument cluster, and the 12-hour flight between the climate controls and readouts. Though I got negative vibes about how some other things were implemented in the 6, I was careful to not identify "different" as being "inferior". What I really liked is the additional cup holders in the front door map pockets, and the seats were comfortable and supportive for my "I am on a diet" @ss. Other things I liked are the gas struts on the trunk hinge, rear seats that automatically fold down by themselves, and a very smooth rear deck underside due to no rear deck speakers nor trunk springs.
On the outside the car looked positively sharp. With the SE's built-in lip spoiler, body kit, and a "sporty grill", the blue 6 looked great, more agressive than the TSX. I really like the shade of blue that it has, with a slight hint of purple.
With a shiftknob installed I was ready for my test drive. Release parking brake, ease in gas, ease out clutch, stall engine. I was instantly embarassed, especially since I had offered to drive when my salesman stalled the engine for the third time in 100 feet. Open mouth, insert foot. Maintaining my composure, I fired up the engine again and this time gave it more gas, and the car lurched forward. Smoothness will come, I promised myself.
Getting out to the main road, I press the gas firm, but not hard, and proceeded to wait for the engine to wow me with the ease of everyday-driving that has become the argument for everything V6 against everything I4. The tach dipped to 500 before catching on and the car started accelerating with the feror a Toyota Prius I test drove two weeks ago. Grabbing second gear, the car lurches forward on the shift, then third, then back to second as I let the engine do some braking before rounding the corner onto a winding 2-lane road. By this time I am having serious doubts about my driving abilities, because so far I've been able to extract an amount of performance out of the Mazda 6 that would present a "clear and present danger" to a pack of VW TDI drivers.
Should I have ordered the grilled chicken instead? Nay say I! Press forth and unleash the 220 Arabians!
My engineering instincts kicked in and I started analyzing the cause of my displeasure: the clutch mates near the start of the pedal's upward travel, not near the end as I am used to with Hondas, and the gas pedal is fairly insensitive to inputs until 1/3 way into its downward swing. With these revelations in mind, I launched fairly hard at every stop sign I came to but by the fourth time I had still yet to produce one satisfying run and my salesman was starting to look very uncomfortable. "Focus Daniel-San." I did one last pull from a stop light. I slipped the clutch with the engine near 3500RPMs, and pressed the gas fairly heavily as soon as the clutch caught. The car did accelerate admirably but I felt like I was trying to spank a 3-cylindered Metro into submission rather than basking in the V6 promised land of awesome powerful fear-nothing-because-God-is-on-your-side low end torque on the same order of adrenaline-inducing magnitude as riding in a loaded run away beer truck. "This is a V6?", "Yea, why?", "Does it have drive-by-wire throttle?", "No it is cabel driven", "Oh..."
With only 15 miles on the odometer, I felt a bit guilty, so I decided to use the 4 gears that I haven't destroyed yet. Running around in 3rd gear I took the car up to about 60, then back to second for a bit of engine breaking groung around a 30 mile curve at about 45, then back on the throttle coming out of it. Spying the 40mph sign on the side of the road I passed at 65mph I breaked and asked "Are there cops on this road?", "If there are any they right here, after that curve we just passed." Wonderful.
The car handled well, though it got a bit nervous when breaking in the middle of a corner because the suspension settled a lot, requiring more steering correction than I anticipated. The tires are identical to those on the TSX. Grip was great in the dry when driving semi-aggressively as I did, with no detectable understeer to my limited driving senses. The suspension feels softer compared to the TSX, yielding a more compliant ride, and about as quiet as a TSX for a given road condition. I felt comfortable driving it fast around corners. I haven't flogged it hard so I can't say for certain in comparison to a TSX in terms of relative abilities near the edge.
We pulled back into the dealer, I asked for a business card, and was gone in two minutes.
I really liked the Mazda 6 when it was sitting still. In comparison the old 626 was horrible ("2002, Priced to go!!!" said 10 such cars in the back lot). I couldn't find much to complain about in terms of quality of materials, and the ergonomics is while not perfect but above anything Ford has managed to build for its own vehicles. Maybe I got a bad sample, maybe I really should have ordered the grilled chicken, but the Mazda 6 in motion was less than satisfying. If there are really 220HP in that engine, they need to wake up at less than 3000RPMs. Maybe they can be whipped into shape with a reconfigured throttle arrangement. But as it stands, the 140HP in my '92 Accord's I4 feels a lot more willing to work.
07-24-2003, 10:42 AM
#2
'12 TL (prev '04 TSX 6MT)
FWIW, I'm a MT newbie. I test drove a 5-spd MT Mazda 6s back in January, with my most recent MT experience at the time being on a Ford Focus wagon (130hp 4-cyl with no tach). It seemed relatively easy. I think I only stalled once on the test drive, (which is less than on my TSX test drive.) It seemed to me like it had plenty of power.
I also went to the Mazda RevItUp event and drove some 6s automatics pretty hard around a road course. After that, I bought a TSX. :P
I also went to the Mazda RevItUp event and drove some 6s automatics pretty hard around a road course. After that, I bought a TSX. :P
07-24-2003, 11:18 AM
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The clutch on the mazda6 is definitely not sporty enough. You want a good sports clutch where the engage point is near the top of the clutch release. It should be like this so that if you wanted to drive fast, you could simply "tap" the clutch when shifting instead of pushing it to the floor. Any clutch that engages right when you lift it off the floor is shitty IMHO.
Good write up though, and it had me smiling the whole time (as someone who has driven both cars).
Good write up though, and it had me smiling the whole time (as someone who has driven both cars).
07-24-2003, 11:29 AM
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Not to change the subject, but I had a similar experience last night testing an '03 Accord V6 with the 5AT. It was as gutless as I could possibly imagine for a 240 HP V6. Quality is good (somewhat comparable to the TSX, if a little inferior) and the Accord shares many of the well thought-out features, but it's a pig to drive compared to the TSX. With 40 more HP than the TSX I expected a lot more. By comparrison, the TSX felt lighter (although it's heavier) and I didn't need to spank it nearly as hard to get some satisfaction...
07-24-2003, 11:38 AM
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Two comments -- the 6s has a really poor vvt setup where it has no torque under 3000rpm. that is confirmed by dynos. IN reality the tsx cranks as much or more at that point. and the drive by wire system has gotten really bad attention(it's not cable driven). In fact on mazda forums there are probably a dozen or so threads about how to "fix the dreaded drive by wire lag"
NOTE: This dyno is with a common "airbox" mod that is supposed to be good for a few horses and a few lbft. Even with that you can see the tsx mt has more torque below 2800-2900 rpms which is pretty important for freeway driving.(at least with my auto
) The 6s also has wheels and tires which weigh about 5lbft less at each corner which is also good for a few lbft across the board. Basically it's general consensus that the 6s horsepower was overrated and torque underrated. It's cranking more like 200hp/200tq. Another case where mazda overrates a motor, shocking
NOTE: This dyno is with a common "airbox" mod that is supposed to be good for a few horses and a few lbft. Even with that you can see the tsx mt has more torque below 2800-2900 rpms which is pretty important for freeway driving.(at least with my auto
) The 6s also has wheels and tires which weigh about 5lbft less at each corner which is also good for a few lbft across the board. Basically it's general consensus that the 6s horsepower was overrated and torque underrated. It's cranking more like 200hp/200tq. Another case where mazda overrates a motor, shocking
07-24-2003, 11:48 AM
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Wow! a dyno plot that confirms more or less what I felt! I really am that good!!! 
I guess it really made an impression on me because how poorly implemented it felt in comparison to the other cars I've test driven in the last three weeks or so. Prior to my test drive yesterday my knowledge on the Mazda 6 was limited to the main paper specs on power and drivetrain configuration. My daily commuter is a '92 Accord EX I4 5sp. I've test driven the following cars with a manual transmission:
Acura RSX, TSX
Lexus IS300
MB C230 Sedan
BMW 330i
Subaru WRX
VW New Beetle, NB 1.8T, GTI 1.8T
Accord Accord Ex 5spd, Civic Si, Element
I remember stalling once in the New Beetle out of sheer stupidity on my part (forgot to press the clutch coming to a stop at a light). But in all other cases, it took all of maybe 20 seconds to find a comfortable clutch/throttle process that yeilded good around-town driving. Maybe I didn't hit the sweet spot on the first or second launch but it was obviously there and I just had to catch it on the next shot. On the Mazda 6, I was more or less lost until I mentally prepared for it, I mean really thought about it and then execute it as well as I could. It has none of the expected margin of error allowed by a V6 engine. I am sure if I dump any car's clutch at near red line the drive tires will speak to me. But in the TSX, I could count on launching the TSX with *JUST ENOUGH* torque to break traction a bit and then hook up. The throttle control is precise and easy to gauge. The Mazda 6 doesn't offer the same level of control. In this regard, it is worse than all of the cars I've test driven, including the turbo cars.
One note on the drive by wire. I asked the salesman if the Mazda 6 had a V6 out of jest, but I didn't know if it had drive by wire throttle. The engine response was so non-linear that I figured a poorly implemented drive-by-wire throttle was the culprit. I guess I was somewhat correct. When the salesman told me it had a cable driven throttle, I became lost as to the cause of the poor throttle response.
I guess it really made an impression on me because how poorly implemented it felt in comparison to the other cars I've test driven in the last three weeks or so. Prior to my test drive yesterday my knowledge on the Mazda 6 was limited to the main paper specs on power and drivetrain configuration. My daily commuter is a '92 Accord EX I4 5sp. I've test driven the following cars with a manual transmission:
Acura RSX, TSX
Lexus IS300
MB C230 Sedan
BMW 330i
Subaru WRX
VW New Beetle, NB 1.8T, GTI 1.8T
Accord Accord Ex 5spd, Civic Si, Element
I remember stalling once in the New Beetle out of sheer stupidity on my part (forgot to press the clutch coming to a stop at a light). But in all other cases, it took all of maybe 20 seconds to find a comfortable clutch/throttle process that yeilded good around-town driving. Maybe I didn't hit the sweet spot on the first or second launch but it was obviously there and I just had to catch it on the next shot. On the Mazda 6, I was more or less lost until I mentally prepared for it, I mean really thought about it and then execute it as well as I could. It has none of the expected margin of error allowed by a V6 engine. I am sure if I dump any car's clutch at near red line the drive tires will speak to me. But in the TSX, I could count on launching the TSX with *JUST ENOUGH* torque to break traction a bit and then hook up. The throttle control is precise and easy to gauge. The Mazda 6 doesn't offer the same level of control. In this regard, it is worse than all of the cars I've test driven, including the turbo cars.
One note on the drive by wire. I asked the salesman if the Mazda 6 had a V6 out of jest, but I didn't know if it had drive by wire throttle. The engine response was so non-linear that I figured a poorly implemented drive-by-wire throttle was the culprit. I guess I was somewhat correct. When the salesman told me it had a cable driven throttle, I became lost as to the cause of the poor throttle response.
07-24-2003, 10:50 PM
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For some reason I really want to see the Mazda 6 do well. I test drove it as well (Mazda 6s with Sport) and generally liked the car. I wasn't impressed by the V6 and the overall feel was not the highest quality, but I thought it handled very well and is a damn good looking car. I drove an auto so I can't comment on the clutch, but I remember the transmission shifting smoothly and relatively quickly with the automanual.
I guess I'm just rooting for it because I like to see an inexpensive midsized 'family' sedan that looks and feels sporty. It's aimed to fit a nice niche - it just wasn't quite mine.
I guess I'm just rooting for it because I like to see an inexpensive midsized 'family' sedan that looks and feels sporty. It's aimed to fit a nice niche - it just wasn't quite mine.
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09-01-2004, 03:15 PM
#9
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by JOZMAN
Yea, Mazdas are on the right track...I've heard Mazda 6 V6 engine are similar from Ford Taurus is this true?
The M6 use the same 3.0L block as 3.0L Ford Duratec but Mazda has redesigned the entire top half of the engine. And besides, the 3.0L Duratec is apparently a very reliable engine.
EDIT: Holy old thread.
08-29-2005, 07:29 PM
#12
Blah Blah Blah
All you haters of the V6 maz6 mtx can kiss my rear
Look at the specs and you know what you have to do to make it go!! Gas that thing up and rev it!!
Thats the fun part. Some of us like to rev things out like a motorcycle. Thats why I got a Mazda6. And that exhaust sound is delicious. So hate no more.
All you haters of the V6 maz6 mtx can kiss my rear
Look at the specs and you know what you have to do to make it go!! Gas that thing up and rev it!!
Thats the fun part. Some of us like to rev things out like a motorcycle. Thats why I got a Mazda6. And that exhaust sound is delicious. So hate no more.
08-29-2005, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by calgary2800
Blah Blah Blah
All you haters of the V6 maz6 mtx can kiss my rear
Look at the specs and you know what you have to do to make it go!! Gas that thing up and rev it!!
Thats the fun part. Some of us like to rev things out like a motorcycle. Thats why I got a Mazda6. And that exhaust sound is delicious. So hate no more.
All you haters of the V6 maz6 mtx can kiss my rear
Look at the specs and you know what you have to do to make it go!! Gas that thing up and rev it!!
Thats the fun part. Some of us like to rev things out like a motorcycle. Thats why I got a Mazda6. And that exhaust sound is delicious. So hate no more.
Oh wait, let me ease out on the throttle so you can show me your ass.. 
08-29-2005, 07:49 PM
#15
Originally Posted by calgary2800
Blah Blah Blah
All you haters of the V6 maz6 mtx can kiss my rear
Look at the specs and you know what you have to do to make it go!! Gas that thing up and rev it!!
Thats the fun part. Some of us like to rev things out like a motorcycle. Thats why I got a Mazda6. And that exhaust sound is delicious. So hate no more.
All you haters of the V6 maz6 mtx can kiss my rear
Look at the specs and you know what you have to do to make it go!! Gas that thing up and rev it!!
Thats the fun part. Some of us like to rev things out like a motorcycle. Thats why I got a Mazda6. And that exhaust sound is delicious. So hate no more.
Why do trolls like you, with your limited intelligence that can't even tell when a thread was posted, bother to post here?
08-29-2005, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by CGTSX2004
Why do trolls like you, with your limited intelligence that can't even tell when a thread was posted, bother to post here?
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