dom

Interesting writeup over at Canadiandriver.com about whats in store for 04. About BMW the auther writes:

And about Mercedes Benz

About Honda and Toyota


I particularly agree with the part about BMW's "take it or leave it" styling catching up to them. I think thats already started. And MB popularity has definently dropped off in the last few years. I think Chrysler has something to do with that. I agree with alot of his viewpoints but he's definently missing some information. We know the RL will not be FWD.


http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/pb/2004.htm

BeN_RENAMED

The CEO of Honda already state that the new RL will not be FWD.

kurt_bradley

We've already confirmed that it will be all-wheel-drive. Most likely it will be a variant of the VTM-4 system, like the MDX uses. They have assured us all that this new RL will definately have "well over 300 horsepower" and most likely be powered by a 3.8L V6. No real confirmation of the use of a hybrid system (or IMA, as Honda likes to call it). It will be official in the coming months, being that the car is slated to go on sale for the US market in August.

Buff-Daddy

So, Acura is kicking butt and heading in the right direction with all of these new and improved designs. Yet their growth over 2002 was only 3.2%. This "so called" disaster that BMW has created for themselves has resulted in 7.9% growth during the same period of time. People have been concerned every time that BMW has changed thier design and BMW just keeps moving along. I will admit, I don't like the new designs as well YET, but I think for every traditional BMW buyer they lose, they pick up a new one on the other end.
I am not really concerned and it doesn't look like BMW is either. If there is not a BMW I like when it comes time to turn mine in, then I will take a look around and see what catches my eye. If the license plate covers up the Pontiac front nose and cheesy embossed Acura imprint on the TL, then I will take a hard look at one.

phile

How about Cadillac? I also don't like the prediction about Toyota...they make it seem as if Toyota's invincible.

The part about the Acura RL is very true, though. If Acura's flagship fails, all the hard work gone into the TSX and TL will have been for nothing. I also think that Acura needs to expand into the 60K luxury market (and I don't mean the NSX). It needs a high priced sedan to be taken seriously, otherwise it'll still occupy its current position, which is above Mercury/Buick but not quite Mercedes/BMW.

RogerPodacter

Be that as it may, I think this article isn't talking about 2002, its talking about '04. And with the new TSX and TL models, i am willing to bet that "3.2%" will be higher for Acura.

dom

We'll see about that B-D, we'll see. Not saying Acura will outgain BMW, all I'm sayng is these horrible designs will catch up with them in the long run, they always do. The next 3 better look good.

And for the record, the new 5 is'nt getting rave reviews, the new X3 was absolutely torn apart in the new C&D, the new 7 has iDrive, enough said. Every BMW writeup I come across these days first mentions something like "styling is'nt for everyone" or "not quite as nice as the old model" and theres always a mention about how bad iDrive is. All I'm saying is, the cars are'nt as dominating as they once were. And that catches up with you in the long run.

Buff-Daddy

Well how about we wait and see instead of relying on you and all of your knowledge to predict BMW's future for us... If you look at all of the new cars coming out, there are some changes in design that are not typical and are being met with resistance. Look at what Lexus did with the new GS. Not a typical Lexus design and it is already causing a buzz. You know what, Lexus knows more about designing cars that you and so does BMW. I laughed at the fact that BMW was coming out with a Sports Activity Vehicle when the X5 was nothing but a rumor in the magazines and now I have one! You have to take a few risks every now and then and cross a few boundries in order to take it to the next level. I think some companies (leaders) are doing that and other's (followers) are waiting to see what happens. Acura's designs are safe and if you read into the reviews, words like "bland" pop up in one area or another. Their designs are described as classic because they have been done before. Acura grabbed the world by the nuts with the NSX and they faded into the backround and became content with being safe and average instead of pushing the limits.

dnl2ba

I don't mean to dogpile on B-D, because he has a point with the market share figures. Just not the one he meant to make.

The author's point was that BMW is gaining marketshare by moving into segments that will erode its image as the premiere luxury sports car company. The 1-series will earn it lots of money despite lower margins in that price range because there are lots of buyers down there; on the other hand, it will cheapen the brand, much like the Cayenne did for Porsche (despite being expensive and high-performance).

The 7-series and RLs of the world are on the other end of the spectrum: companies don't sell many, and consequently don't make so much on them despite the fat margins, but the top-end cars enhance the company image. It's sort of like why they participate in races.

Whether this erosion end up hurting BMW in the long run comes down to whether the gains lower down are worth the losses higher up, and I don't have the experience in the market to guess which way it will go.

type-s

Intresting but seems to be mostly a US perpective.

Over here in Europe the New Accord (on which the TSX is based) has broken ground and is selling like hot cakes.

The Diesel version is stirring everyone up, and the Petrol Version has been receiving excellent press coverage from most major magazines even blowing away cars double the price from Audi and Volvo.

NewsNews

dom

Exactly, that is the point the authur was making. Lets not also forget the fact that there were only 2 "bangled" BMW's out in the market for 03 and neither are big sellers (7 and Z4) Now that they've moving their big sellers into the "bangled" lineup ( 5 and soon 3) we'll see how that market share holds up. I'm sure its won't suffer drastically because of the new X3, 6 series and 1 series but is their growth now limited by these new designs? Would they have sold more 7's and 5's if they looked half decent?

And B-D your an a-hole plain and simple. I don't think anyone will argue that fact with me. I gave my opinion on where I think BMW is headed. Its my opinion, nothing more.

jcg878

type-s I'm glad you're here to broaden our perspective

KC 2004 TSX

I agree with your point just not this specific comment. Porsche cheapened themselves in 1997 when they released the Boxster.

I heard a quote from a life long loyal Porsche owner in regards to the new Boxster. He said, "Great now every a-hole can own one!"

type-s

Yep its intresting to see the in the USA Accura is been praised for the TSX and Honda is plodding along whilst in Europe the very same car is the one causing the stir !

Ernie

bob shiftright

He must not have lived a very long life!

"Bargain" (a relative term when it comes to the marque) Porsches have been around since the 1950s, the original 356 Speedster was gutted to bring the price down, not to save weight. To bring down the price of the original 911 they gave it the 4-banger from the 356 and called it the 912. This was followed by the 914, marketed in Europe as the "VW-Porsche 914" mostly built with VW motors. The 912E followed for 1 year, this was a 911 body with an actual VW 412 FI motor. Then the 924 followed, originally designed for Audi which had an Audi motor. This evolved into the 944 with 1/2 of the 928's V8 but still the Audi transmission. The 944 morphed into the 968. Still built on an Audi assembly line, right to the end. Porsche nearly fell into bankruptcy in the early 1990s and dropped everything but the tried-and-true 911. The Boxster soon followed. There WAS a brief gap where Porsche only sold the flagship 911s but it was a very brief gap. 911 sales have always been small, the "bargain" Porsches have constituted the majority of their sales (and profits).

I happen to think the Cayenne is an awfully dumb idea and that Porsche vastly overestimated the size of the market but "cheap" it isn't. It is probably the most complex, technically sophisticated SUV built today. In other words, an awfully dumb idea.

Cayennes are only available with slushboxes and Tiptronics are now available even on the 911 Turbos, so the TRUE statement is: "Now any a-hole can DRIVE a Porsche!"

Buff-Daddy

I'm an a-hole because I don't agree with your opinion? Grow up and quit being so damn sensitive. Do you sit when you pee?

You went on record as saying that becasue YOU don't like BMW's new designs that BMW is obviously in trouble. Well, since you didn't buy one of the old/current BMW designs, what difference does it make? Without you, they were still up 7.9% in 2003. How did they ever do it without your support?
As far as "cheapening" thier name because they are coming out with lower priced vehicles, that is just a joke. I don't think the 911's performance suffered because Porsche came out with the Cayanne and I don't think the current BMW's will perform any worse when they come out with a sub 25k vehicle. If you don't respect and cannot admit that BMW is one of the top automobile manufacturers in the world, then you don't know anything about cars and you should sew your mouth shut. It doesn't matter if you don't like a certain design, because there will be 300,000 others that do.

Junkster

I think the biggest thing for BMW isn't design or the new fangled i-Drives and such, although they add to the brand's mystique.

Personally, I like BMWs for their driving experience in a very nice package. For those of you who've driven a M3 or 540, you know what I mean, great handling, good power, well-balanced, and without sacrificing too much creature comforts. If you wonder why every other company compares their models to BMW 3 or 5 series, it's because they are consistantly the benchmark of their catagories.

The only complaint with BMW for me is the maintanace and looks. Personally, not very fond of the new Bangle designs, but hey, at least they actually take chances unlike Lexus or Honda for that matter. If this design phase doesn't pan out, they can always go back to another design trend and these Banlge designs can be collector's items and stuff. I'm hoping by the time I'm a M.D and have the ability to own a BMW 5 series, Bangle will be designing toasters for Target and not BMW's. The maintenance costs is another issue for me, since cost of fixing anything on a BMW is at least an arm and maybe a leg for labor. It's not their fault, though, since you should be able to afford the maintenance if you were rich enough to afford it in the first place.

Whoever wrote that article doesn't sound like a very professional journalist from what I can see. Most professionals would be more reserved in their opinions in facing the possibility that they might be completely wrong in sitting on such an extreme opinion, since he doesn't even state any factual evidence for his stance. This 'journalist' sounds more like some opinionated fool in some automotive forum or something... those dorks ... oh wait, that's us.

Junkster, who thinks BMW will probably be just fine moving downmarket.

vitocorleone

B-D (and not just you) miss an important point when it comes to design - no, I'm not an automotive designer, but I am a designer - at a very simplified level, you have 2 design paths:

1) Flashy/daring
2) Sedate/careful

The benefit of the first one is that you create a stir, and this stir alone can sell a lot of your product. But the downside is that your 15min of fame constantly threatens to implode upon itself and your flashy design looks trashy to people a year later.

The downside of the second one is that the market may consider it "boring" or "bland" and your sales may not be as high. But the benefit is that your design is more classic in nature and ages well, so your sales continue or grow.

BOTH are valid approaches and either one may succeed or fail.

Just because the current BMWs are flashy doesn't mean they won't be trashy. The old BMWs were more sedate than flashy and look how they are regarded as classics now. Honda/Acura has always been sedate, and the looks of their cars tend age very well.

To me, Nissan and BMW are currently on the flashy/daring path and I wish them both the best. I hope Honda does not cross over because people need alternatives.

dom

Maybe its just me, but since this is an Auto forum I thought it was a given that most of what people write is to be taken as their opinion. I like using "IMO" after alot of my statements but did'nt find it nessesary in this thread since we were talking about the "OPINION" of an auto journalist and not facts.

When have I ever said I don't respect or realize that BMW is'nt one of the top Car Manf's out there? Show me please? I like Bimmers I just don't like their price and maintenance costs.

My point in all of this is this, IMO, BMW is hurting their own image with poor styling and poor implementation of electronic aids (iDrive). But, from what I understand iDrive is fairly easy to use with a few weeks/months of practice.

IMO this will hurt their image in the coming years. I agree with what this authur wrote, sorry if I respect his opinion over yours, I mean he's in the industry but you drive a BMW, you must know what your talking about. But at the same time I have to concede that BMW's business will grow, not because of their fresh new designs, but because they now have a vehicle available in more segments. (6, X3, 1)

And B-D why so sensitive? Don't try and tell me noone's called you an A-Hole before

Junkster

I think you might be forgeting one other catagory which would be considered "revolutionary".
No one in their right minds in the 60's would have guessed that the Mini Cooper was nothing more than a whimsical design that would phase out in 10 years, and yet still today it is reveared as a great step in compact car design. Others such as the old Beetle, 2002/1600, Jag Xk, among others were revolutionary designs that forever changes what comes next. Flashy designs come and go, such as some Mustangs, Eclipse and the Celica. The Accords, Camrys and Tauruses of the world would fill our 'vanilla' addictions.

I don't know what the Bangle design is yet, it is flashy in some sense, but it remains to be seen if they remain as a new trendsetter in design for the next few decades.

Junkster, whose no design expert.

dom

A revolution in my mind is a design so different and useful that its copied by others. A revolution IMO was Chyslers first Minivan. The first SUV, whatever that was. The first pickup Truck, The first hatchback and now Crossovers or pickups that turn into SUV's (Avalanche). These cars created new segments. The designs were copied by others and are now practically used by every manufactuer. BMW designs are a evolution of their own designs. I seriously doubt anyone will copy them and none of the new Bangled cars have created a new segment.

Just my 0.2 cents.

KC 2004 TSX

He's in his late 60's. He has owned dozens of Porsche's. I didn't need a history lesson but it was good info. You left out that Porsche started out making VW then after WWII they made a Porsche from a Beetle. Even the early Porsche's weren't bargins relative to the income of the average American.

His point was they have never been built for the masses until the Boxster.

Brad

Interesting coverage this week on DW TV's Auto, Motor, und Sport show was about a company that diagnoses and rebuilds the computer systems on cars. They cited an example from an chap who owns a 5-series BMW. They cited the string of problems after problems that this chap had with his car and that many repair shops are not well equipt to troubleshoot and diagnose electronic problems.

BTW, Mercedes' quality problems are self-inflicted and have nothing to do with the merger with Chryzler. I do not recall the survey source, but Chryzler's quality problems were less severe than Mercedes, but both were below average. It's the merger of two bad apples, IMHO.

Buff-Daddy

What about these? Or did you mean as a company, redesigning across the board?

More flashy/daring designs...

Infiniti FX35/45
Lexus SC 430
Mazda RX-8
Honda Element (daring, but hardly flashy...)

Junkster

You bring up some good ones B-Diddy.

The FX, though some disagree, might bring about the designing of more racy and sporty looking SUVs. The long hood and huge tires and swoopy looks might influence other makers to follow with more racy looking SUVs. I do think that the Vehicross kinda beat everyone to the punch on this, but it came too soon to make an impact.

I agree that the Lexus and Mazda are probably one-offs that will disappear soon. The Element is hard to say in the global sense since Japanese mini-cars have that odd look going for the last decade or so and it isn't wearing off over there yet.

Junkster, who doesn't like the RX-8 design but thinks the car is pretty cool performance-wise and utility-wise.

Buff-Daddy

Junkster, read Consumer Reports last review of the 3-Series, it is recommended now because reliability improved in the last few years, especially 2003.

Quote: "Reliability has improved lately, so we can recommend the 3-Series."

If you lease instead of buy, the maintenance is free anyway and you don't have to worry about it at all!

Buff-Daddy, who thinks Junkster is the 2nd smartest guy on this site! LOL!

Lung Fu Mo Shi

Actually, the "regular scheduled maintenance" is free...not anything out of the ordinary.

Junkster

Reliability is one thing, fixing something is a whole different story. IF you have something go wrong, its a pain to fix it without costing too much. I did hear that BMW is working on quality improvement. Yea, if I go Euro on the next car, I would definitely lease, not buy. I'm still pretty sceptic about European cars in general.

Junkster, who thinks there's a whole buttload of smart people in this forum... too many is my concern.

tsx-mdxman

The FX isn't selling so well, neither is the SC or the RX. The "take it or leave it" styling movement's 15 minutes are about up. There was and still is nothing wrong with making a car universally appealing with respect to styling. Who here can honestly argue the current SC or 5 series looks better than its predecessor? Who here is lusting for any of Bangle's Bimmers now? Not me! And I love BMW's. What's the benefit to a manufacturer when their product makes half a crowd smile and the other half gag as it plows by? Tell me how that is going to improve sales?
Betcha a six pack the new 3 series turns out pretty nice, the next SC is sweet looking and Mazda doesn't do another curious looking RX.

Iceman

I can't tell if Bangle's getting better at it, or the look is growing on me, but the newest BMW's look pretty darned good to me. Can't say that I care for the sculpted door look, but the eyebrows are a look I can definitely live with.

Coming back to the topic at hand, I think the Canadian journalist missed any number of points. Point 1: BMW is on a roll. Their quality is improving, their sales are increasing, they are rolling out more models in the US, they are going to build more cars in the US. It is Detroit that needs to look out, not BMW. That crashing sound you hear is the collapse of Chrysler, Ford, and GM.
Point 2: You have no idea what a haymaker Toyota is about to lay on the rest of the auto industry with their hybrid technology. Check out the NAIAS website re the Lexus and Highlander hybrids that will be available by - what - the end of the year? 28-30 mpg city gas mileage. The biggest beef that SUV owners have with their vehicles is really low gas mileage, and Toyota is about to release two SUV's (OK they are crossovers) with fabulous gas mileage. The governor of Minnesota is proposing toll roads instead of increased gas taxes for expanding our freeway system. He doesn't think gas taxes are a reliable source of revenue any more, because of the sharp increase in gas mileage due to hybrid technology. Well that would be Toyota and, to a lesser extent, Honda.

Buff-Daddy

Most leases are 36 months, what the hell do you think is going to happen that they won't fix? All I can think of is brake pads and tires. On the BMW forums, I have heard of dealers fixing broken stitching in leather, removing ink stains, peeling interior door handles, replacing bulbs, etc. None of this is routine, but they will fix it if something goes wrong within your lease term.

Buff-Daddy

I see your point, but how many boring, boxy 4-door sedans can you make in a row without some changes. I like Acura's entire line-up except for the current RL, hopefully they will fix that Buick and bring it up to par with the rest of the line-up. Acura's line-up is consistantly nice looking, but not "turn your head" overly exciting. I wish there was just a little more agressive flare, but that is where the risk comes in.
I like the fact that companies are pushing the limits and making some DIFFERENT cars. There was a time there where everything looked the same from 25 yards and you couldn't tell a Camry from a Maxima from a Galant. I am glad there are cars out there like the Aztec, FX and SC430 because at least they are different and you know what they are from 100 yards away. Although I would NEVER buy the Aztec or FX and wouldn't pay 57k+ for the SC, I am still glad that there is a little more variety out there these days. And you are right about the 3-Series, it will be the nicest (aka - most subtle) of the "B-Word" designs.

zircon

Current 3 series is good enough for Acura to copy for TSX. That doesn't bother me at all, as the 3 is really attractive. I think Bangle, the dork, pooched the 6 series with the rear quarter panel. Car is beautiful laterally until you get 'there'. They have to do something about i-drive also. As Domn mentioned, the reviewer in C&D savaged the 5-series, and specifically talked about 1) guys coming in to the dealer and saying 'just rig the damn thing to do 3 tricks instread of 40' and 2) the imminent collossal decline in residual value of 7-series with the i-drive system. Hard to believe geeky engineers can develop this stuff in a vacuum and not thoroughly screen the market before implementing the technology.

BMW does have a PR problem to deal with re: arrogance. My neighbour ordered a 3 series, and waited months for it. The calleda couple weeks before the delivery date and told him they couldn't get the car (he had pre-sold his car and they had sold his new lease car). He waited a few more months and when his car came in, he couldn't believe that they delivered a car with different wood and leather combos than what he had ordered. Arrogant pricks.

MBs electronics are far too complex and is really hurting that company.

Buff-Daddy

Wow, one dealership f'ed up your neighbors order and now BMW is going out of business. I am guessing that every dealership from Ferrari to Kia has f'ed up an order. I have heard about 2 people on this forum alone that have had their long awaited TSX lease arrivals sold out from under them. There are good/honest dealers and there are bad/dishonest dealers, it really doesn't matter what vehicle they are selling.
As far as i-drive and the 7-Series are concerned, if someone bought it, they must have liked it on the test drive, so they have to take responsibility for their own actions. And I am not sure people who buy 7-Series are really all that concerned with residual values anyway. They are smart enough to realize that cars depreciate and rich enough to not give a damn. They will just turn it into the dealer and say, give me the latest and greatest...

zircon

No Buff: they f'ked him twice and still didn't care. I couldn't believe that they still took the car. I would have taken my business elsewhere if I were treated like that by any brand of auto dealer. Complancent and arrogant is precisely what goes GM, Ford and Chrysler where they are today. It can also happen to BMW, Mercedes or anyone else.

I think those who still buy the 7 series do so either because they want the trophy car to go with the trophy wife, or because they like the drivetrain so much they're willing to live in a Bangled-up world. My neighbour and his father both both the last model of 7-series, and both have said never again will they buy BMW after the electrical problems both cars have suffered. (Yeah, its an anecdote but if enough guys have these problems, the cars won't sell).

We'll see in another year or two which of us is correct. Right?

Buff-Daddy

Right, and how convenient that all of your neighbors have negative BMW problems for you to reference. All of my neighbors have Acura's and I have to give them rides to work every day of the week becuase their cars are always in the shop and the shop people call them bad names and flash gang signs at them while they wait.
No, that isn't true, but I think I pulled it out of the same place you pulled yours...

zircon

you're an idiot

Buff-Daddy

See, that is exactly what I was thinking when I read your post.

Junkster

Awww, the good ol' dealership experience and such...

You know, it's true that you can't say anything about dealership experiences unless they are somehow controlled by their corporate partners. As much as I despise Saturns (don't ask), their dealerships are pretty much better than 95% of all other dealerships. Sales people are nice, financing people are nice, the whole experience is pretty good. Unlike the other brands like BMW, Acura, Volvo, etc who just give franchise names to whomever wants to sell their cars. God, I'm just dreaming right now of a 'good' Acura dealership experience sometime in my lifetime. BMW has been pretty spotty as well, although some just go out of their way to please you. The local BMW dealership here in Denver is pretty good, but the Colorado Springs one is rancid at best. MB dealership here in Denver is absolutely amazing, with very great afterservice. Most of their sales people are more experience people who know how to deal with their clients, unlike Pikes Peak Acura who has some 25 year old telling me how 'amazing' FWD is for snow (he actually told me FWD is better than AWD).

The top experience for me is Lexus, who carefully screens their dealerships. For the four Lexus dealerships I've been to, I can honestly say I had no bad experience whatsoever (in one, I told the sales person I'm just here with my friend for his car to be serviced, and he still gave me a free drink and told me to call him if I need another soda). Can't say that for any other car brands that I've experienced (with three or more dealerships).

Yea the person buying the 7 series should know what they are getting into... I mean, you pay so much for the car, you can deal with problems. Come on, if you can buy a 7 series, you have at least two other cars that you can drive while that cars in the shop. And if you buy a European luxury flagship and don't expect problems, you are one ignorant person in terms of buying cars. The 7 series is usually jam-packed with new fangled stuff, of course you'll have problems. God, try buying an Audi A8, MB S class, and, Lord forbid, a Jaguar XJ!!! If you want more reliable luxury car, get a Lexus, that's what it's there for. But if you want the prestige and head-turns from all the people, than you have to go Euro, and you have to take the baggage that comes with it. I once had a friend whose dad bought a 911 and didn't know how much maintenance it took to keep it on the road.


Junkster, who hopes Acura starts screening some of their dealerships.

phile

I think they are. I've seen some of the Acura dealerships here expanding their showrooms and renovating. Before, they were just single building Acura dealerships that looked tiny compared with Lexus and MB dealerships with their huge front windows and 2-story showrooms. Perhaps they're getting incentives from Acura for being good?