Chitown-TSX

The following excerpts are from Edmund's follow-up test on the Saab 9.3 Vector:

"The culprit for our test car's sub par performance was a faulty second-gear synchronizer that made a rapid one-two upshift impossible. With a healthy Vector manual, we'd expect low 7s to 60 mph and low to mid-15s for the quarter. Otherwise, we found the manual light and although rubbery, easy to shift — familiar to anyone who's driven a Saab of the past decade or so. But during the week we had this 9-3, we also had a new Acura TSX with a manual, and the precise feel and action of the Acura's 'box absolutely shames the Saab's tranny, as well as those of nearly every other car in this class."

"We still think that the 9-3's charms outweigh its minor annoyances. But it's not like the good old days when that was enough. With tough competition like Audi’s A4 and Acura's polished '04 TSX now in the game, unique styling, comfy seats and the rush of a turbo are no longer enough."

Gee all that and a $34000 MSRP. Hmmm makes the TSX seem better and better.

Chitown-TSX

Sorry about creating a new thread, I see there is already one established.

Jason

No worries bro, you're golden.

adam fiooz

I'm a troll....lol

rb4580

We already know your story Fiooz!

93Kewl

Not! (Sorry I just had to).

The dope that did the review made several mistakes, the biggest one being calling the MT a 5sp instead of 6sp.

On the otherhand, he mentions that looking different and turbo charged acceleration just doesn't cut it (actually said that.."unique styling, comfy seats and the rush of a turbo are no longer enough.")

For some of us who don't want "cookie cutter" cars, that's exactly what will cut it.

wishiwere

Hmm...where is this other thread? I have searched but can't find it...

civic4982

Saab's name comes with a class standing hence the difference in pricing. I think it's overly priced though. I'd be all over a TSX before a 9-3.

93Kewl

I got my Vector for $32.5K (thanks to generous incentives). For what the car has and offers it is not overpriced. As a matter of fact, considering other cars that offer as much as the 9-3 does, you'll need to look into the mid 30's and higher.

wiz

Yes, but what options did you get on your Vector? Granted they had to come down a lot to get the price that low, but it's still almost 4k more than I paid for my TSX, and I don't see many more options that it comes with that the TSX doesn't have...just curious, because I did price out a Vector...

93Kewl

Dave,

Yes, you are absolutely correct in saying that the TSX and Vector are probably neck and neck when it comes to "base" features. Both cars come with ABS, VSA, and all the other 3 letter acronyms that we have all come to know and love.

However, what I do like is that the "nice" features are indeed options and you can select them if you feel they are worth the added expense. I, of course, did.

A fully loaded Vector contains the following:

Touring Package:
• Rain Sensing Wipers .
• Bi-Xenon Self-LevelingHeadlights .
• Radar Rear Park Assist .
• In Dash 6 Disc CD Changer .

Heated Seats
Power Sunroof
5 Sp Auto Transmission with Sentronic - Vector adds shift paddles on steering wheel.
Power drivers and Passenger seats with 5 button memory for seats and mirrors. (std)
Auto down/up passenger side mirror (std)
300W 13 speaker (std)
Safety pinch windows and sunroof (std)

One of the "nicer" features of the car is both the user customizable and system tech customizable features. The "profiler" allows you to set options to customize various features of the car such as climate control, rain wipers, how the security system works, etc. The "Tech II" options set by the dealer, allow things like auto door lock on drive off, Daytime running lights, pressing keyfob once or multiple times to unlock/lock all doors, and much more.

Jason

What kind of navigation system is available there 93Kewl? Nothing? hahahahaha

Dude, the car isn't worth an extra $5500 (I don't know where wiz gets $4000; $32,500-$26,990 = $5510) for rain-sensing wipers, bi-level HID, 5 speakers, 60 less watts, radar rear park assist, a power passenger seat, pinch protection, and auto up/down passenger window.

Let's not forget the TSX has some extra things as well, like reliability and a nice interior. Not to mention the depreciation hit you are going to take at trade-in time.

Good luck with the Saab.

93Kewl

Unless you are a traveling salesman, or make frequent cross-country trips - navigation is a waste. Ah, don't tell me that finding a local chinese food restaurant is acutally important to you? My $200 PDA can accomplish the same thing. Bahhahaaahahaha!

Plus I can down-load more up-to-date maps and information quicker than the crap dvd/cd based information provided on the navi-systems. I could have got it on my CL and chose not to "waste" the extra 2 grand they wanted for the system.

Those are not "extra things". As a matter of fact, I have grown tired or the "generic" cookie-cutter design of japanese interiors. Come on dude, the TSX interior is nice, but it's just an Accord interior with some nicer speedo meters and more brushed aluminum.

Reliability? Come on dude, I owned an both a Honda and an Acura - don't feed me that line of bull. Perhaps you like to feed that line to the CL/TL owners who's trannys blew up? You, like everyone else, have no idea whether "your" particular car will suffer any major problems.

As far a trade in, you really think your in-line 4 that retails for about 25-28k is going to be worth that much in 3-5 years? A 3 year old CL-S with more power and features is worth about 20K (retailed for over 30 back in '01) and that car has a 6cyl which usually retains value better than typical 4's. But, you know what, I don't give a hoot about trade in value. What is important is that I enjoy the car for the time I have it. Whatever I get for the car is just an added bonus and goes to down-payment for another car.

Plus, I think that being able to "truly" customize the car to the way the driver likes it is worth the price of admission. I never thought that these options would affect a car owning experience and thusfar I have come to really appreciate it.

Well, after all is said and done, thanks for your well-wishes.

fdl

I think the 9-3 is a nice car. Deciding between it and the TSX was a very hard decision. Had I been shopping for an AT car it would have been even harder.

Jason

Ignorance. If you look at the responses of all the people that bought the navi, I don't think you can find a single person that regrets getting it. That's because you can do things with an integrated nav that you couldn't do with an aftermarket system or a simple map. The whole idea that people can get a map and be comparable to a nav system is ludicrous. And I am a travelling salesman.

You have simplified it too much, but yes, it IS an Accord interior but with significantly nicer materials and a MUCH better overall look. But you should beg to have an Accord interior because the 9-3 interior is by far the weakest part of what is otherwise a strong car.

My CL-S tranny never blew up and my reliability was stellar. This is after I drove the hell out of my car for 82,000+ miles. And while you're right about my particular car's reliability being unknown, I'll take my chances with Honda/Acura. Do you feel the same confidence with GM/Saab?

I think my car will hold it's value nicely. BTW, you make a bad point comparing the resale value of the CL-S with the TSX. There is a major difference between a coupe and a sedan, and despite the fact my car has "only" four cylinders (what about your car?), I don't honestly believe that will matter. I'd rather pay $25-28K for a 4-cyl. than $32,500.

Well, more power to you then, because you must be doing very well financially. It doesn't seem like a value to pay $5500 more just so you can tell the car whether to unlock all doors with one push of a button instead of two.

Santacruz

Oh goody another TSX v. 9-3 thread

:pee: Saab 9-3

Santacruz

93Kewl

This is great!

Do you realize that all the reasons you give saying "this option is not worth x amount of dollars" or who cares about this "feature", is same thing Accord owners are saying about your TSX?

Think about it, an Accord Sedan/Coupe doesn't have or even offer many of the options that make the TSX supposedly a "premium" automobile. You guys bought you cars (in part) because the feature list offered by a TSX is good for the price Acura offers the car for. Same logic here, boys and girls, holds true for a car that offers more features (ie. Saab 9-3).

You can pick up a nicely equipped Accord for about 24K (maybe even less now). A fully loaded TSX (with auto tranny and navi) can most likely be had for ~28K. A 4K difference. Hmmmmm.....

Funny also, that Saab owners could be saying the same about BMW a comparable car (ie. 330).....a vicious cycle for sure.

fdl

Ya but its more like a 93Kewl gangbang.

93Kewl

Ouch!

It's ok, when playing on someone else's home field, your bound to experience such things. However, on a 9-3 home field, the TSX would experince the same things.

dbjb

is this thread actually comparing an Acura to a GM/Saab? I didn't know they still made Saab vehicles.

btw, do you know why they offer dealer and factory incentives on Saabs? Because they couldn't sell them otherwise.

FYI:

2004 Acura TSX 36 month residual: 56%; 60 month=42%

2004 Saab 9-3 36 month residual: 45%; 60 month=31%

Now I understand, all that extra money goes into the depreciation of the vehicle. What a deal.

dom

I really do like the 9-3 but them the facts guys......

And I would'nt say they could'nt sell them otherwise, but offering those major incentives definently helps sales considerably.

wishiwere

I thought I would chime in here because I looked extensively at both cars, and I think a lot of the arugments being made here are rather baseless. I happen to like both of these cars, and I don't see why it is so hard to think that both cars are good - their "goodness" is not exclusive of one another.

Here's how I see it:
I got my fully loaded 2003 Arc for 28,990 last Friday. This is $2700 more than I could have gotten a tsx for (26,290 was the best offer I got). For this extra $2700, I get all these extra features:
-fog lights (this would cost an extra $500 - $700 installed on the tsx)
-power passenger seat and memory driver seat
-auto-levelling bi-xenon headlights
-rear parking assist (great feature!)
-auto rain sensing windshield wipers and headlight washers
-10 more hp and 55 more ft. lb of torque (while the 0-60 times seem to be more or less the same, maybe even a slight edge to the tsx, I don't race, and so I don't care what the actual time is...all I know is a torque engine feels great, and unless you are always timing yourself with a stopwatch, isn't feel what counts)?
-genuine wood
-one touch up/down on all windows and on sunroof
-compass in mirror
-heated side mirrors
-3 year/36k mile schedules maintenance included
-1 year of onstar included
-much better brakes and tires
-integrated key fob
-trip computer (great features like distance to empty, average mpg acheived, even an alarm that will go off when you exceed a set speed limit - great for those occaisonal lapses when you don't realize how fast you're getting up to)

Now, these are all very real things that have definite monetary value. The differences are not just "the ability to unlock your doors with one press or two" as some have implied. In my opinion, the things I listed above add up too well over $2700 (just the fog lights alone are worth almost 25% of that difference). Interior and exterior looks are subjective, so it's a waste of time to argue over them. In my opinion though, I'm not sure why it's stated on here as if it's a fact that the tsx has a better interior. I've sat in both and driven both, and for my tastes I actully like the Saab interior better...I love the green glow, and also the glut of buttons and screens (I know many see this as a weakness and overly confusing, but I love gadgets and to me it makes it look cooler...but again, it's all subjective..no point in trying to tell someone their personal taste is wrong).

Also, the reliability and resale value argumetns are really weak...comparing first model year cars is kind of useless. Saabs have historically bad resale values, but these are largely due to their hatchback designs, which sold poorly in the US period, thus leading to poor resale values. This redesigned sedan body has been very popular and successful thus far, leading no good reason to believe that the resale value will not improve.

As I said, I like both of these cars. I do think that the msrp on the Saab is probabyl a bit on the high side. But, msrp is bascially just a marketing gimmick. With the number of choices people have on cars, the market will ultimately determine the price of the cars. The fact that the msrp of my new arc was $35,155 and the msrp of the tsx was $26,990 is pretty meaningless. The bottom line is, to me, the arc offered a lot more for not much more money. I'm sure if I hadn't been offered such a great deal on the arc, and if I had gone ahead and gotten the tsx, I stil lwould have been very happy with no regrets - they're both great cars.

dom

Fantastic post wishwire. I pretty much agreed with everything you've written. And I especially agree about not arguing which int/ext looks better, beuty is in the eye of the beholder. Those are alot of extra features for not much more, I must say.

There are a few things in there I wish the TSX had
- Compass in Mirror
- One Touch up/down on all Windows and Sunroof
- power passenger and memory drivers seat
- trip computer

Everything else I could live without, but you've made a valid argument here.

But, while I agree that Saab resale value will improve with the new model, it will take alot longer than one year.

dom

Just to add some Canadian content to this discussion I quiclky went over to MSN Auto to see what I could buy a 9-3 Arc for in Canada. I looked at these numbers before briefly and now I know why.

Saab 9-3 Arc 5AT -MSRP - $41,900
Sunroof - $1,400
Metallic Paint - $500
Sport Wheels Package (17's) - $1,500
Touring package - $1,700 (which includes)
- Bi-Xenon
- Parking Distance Assist
- Rain Sensing Wipers

Grand Total = $47,000

Now lets be generous and presume I could get 5k off that price. The grand total would still be $42,000.
The 9-3 is not such a bargain in Canada I guess with the TSX coming in at $34,800 for a difference of $12,200 without a discount on either car and a difference of $7,200 with a 5k discount on the 9-3 and no discount on the TSX (I got 1k off in April)

Lets imagine I forgot about the Touring Package (-$1,500) and we still have a difference of $10,500.

The TSX has managed to come well under the radar of the 325, G35, IS300 and Audi A4 here in Canada. But Saab Canada has'nt done such a good job with the 9-3.

Maybe it pays to live in the US?

93Kewl

Well, it's official....it's now a 93Kewl/Wishiwere gangbang. Just in the nick of time, it was getting a little lonely in here.

Wishi did very well pricewise on his car. I personally went for the more aggressive lines of the Vector (front, side, and rear spoilers)and provides more supportive sports leather seats, aluminum brushed interior, and lighter alloy vector rims (wishi got the sports package - 17" 5 point rims). I also incurrent an additional expense of the Auto tranny.

I wasn't aware that the TSX did not have trip computer (I thought it was in the navi unit), the one-touch-up windows, or the compass in mirror (I obviously wasn't paying attention on my 2 t-drives).

That has been my point here all along, but most here will still come back a say the TSX is faster 0-60 than a 9-3.


Good point. I think also the 9-5 sedan styling has also helped improve the resale value of that car.

All in all, Wishi made the best point in for the price he got his car for, it was hard not to pull the trigger. Same for me, with all the options/features that 9-3 offers (especially the ARC/Vector) included, you will be hard pressed to find any other car so loaded for the price you can get a 9-3 for.

93Kewl

We make up for it in medical expenses (even with insurance)!

dom

The TSX with Navi does have the trip computer. Non Navi does not
No compass, that was big news back in April, and only the driver's window is one touch up and down.

jcg878

This is exactly what I was thinking, except for Mazda6 owners. If you talk to many of them about the TSX, the argument is the same - "sure it's nice, but those features aren't worth it." Can we just say - feature-wise- that you generally get what you are willing to pay for? On the other hand, I don't know how many more gimmicky features a 330i would have than a 9-3... then you're talking about paying for a better ride and engine.

I think the 9-3 is a great looking car (on the outside), and owning a Saab must be a nice quirk. I just don't trust the GMness of them yet.

Nice pictures in the 'other' thread, BTW.