STL

Very true.

jlukja

You're absolutely right. But, I can't justify spending money on new tires all around when my OEM tires aren't even wearing down much. So, I just bitch and moan whenever I get the chance.

peter_bigblock

I love my TSX, love the fact that it's a n.a. 4-cyl, love the blend of luxury and fun-to-drive performance, I love the looks of the car. That said, I really like the Civic Si, too. It's great looking, it sounds terrific, the interior is first-rate, the stereo is excellent, and I wish I had an LSD. They're two different cars and, as terrific a value as the TSX is vs. its competition, so the Civic is as well.

If I were younger with no kids, looking for a zip-around-town car, the Civic Si coupe would top the TSX on my list. If I were more in the $20,000 price range than the $30,000 price range (loosely -- you know what I mean) when I bought my TSX, the Civic Si sedan would be at the top of my list for sure.

As it is, the TSX suits me greatly and I don't think the Civic really competes with it. More complements it from Honda's perspective. I do agree that there are features that the TSX should have that the Civic has -- LSD, one-touch sunroof, closer 2nd gear ratio, stereo subwoofer.

vitocorleone

Well said. I would've purchased an RSX-S if I was 10 years younger and had the means at that time. Now that that's going away, it'd be the Si. The new civics are indeed nice, but I can still easily tell I'm in a Civic as compared to my TSX.

I also fully believe waTSX's comment was spot on in that some people actually like the TSX's big NA 4-cyl - I sure as heck do. I think that a lot of peoples' problem with the TSX is that it isn't overpowered like most other cars are these days, resulting in them making comments that it's "underpowered". I've had my '04 AT TSX for awhile now and I've never wished I bought the TL (or any other car) instead as it's always had enough power - yes, it sometimes takes more planning and skill to achieve the necessary power when you want and need it, but that's part of the FUN of the TSX! In other words, to me, the TSX is not underpowered. Would I take more power? Sure, I guess, but it's way down the list of things that matter to me when purchasing a car.

jlukja - I replaced the OEM tires at 2k miles and pretty much zero wear-and-tear with Yoko Avid V4s (wanted all-season given i live in the Seattle area) and have never regretted the choice, esp. since Discount Tire gave me $50/tire trade in on the OEMs at the time, which helped reduce the cost. Not only are they a bit more quiet, they are a lot more safe and helped improve the handling of the car quite noticeably. To me, it was an easy justification, and the only "mod" (other than aftermarket speakers/amp instead of navi) I've done to the car.

Black_6spd

I wonder if the median age for the Civic Si sedan will be older or the same as the Civic Si Coupe...

Sorry for the derail, but...

Does anyone have an idea why Honda didn't just simply use the K20Z1 (05-06 RSX-S) rather than having a new engine code made in the K20Z3? Is 197 Hp from the SAE method?

Black_6spd

I've always said that Honda's core competency since the founder created the company was in small, efficient, and reliable motors. With that said, Honda know very well that magic buzzwords such as "V6" and "V8" do not necessarily translate into power. Rather, it's more a perception of more power to the folks who don't want to learn more about cars.

Case-in-point: Although the TL carries an admirable 3.2 V6 with the J32 motor, it's quite evident the designers had a V6 design as a marketing requirement. While 270 hp is impressive, it really isn't to Honda standards. If they really wanted to build a powerful motor, they would have made it with DOHC, VTEC on both intake and exhaust cam lobes, etc. This was Honda's way of giving into the "displacement" trend. Like I've said in previous threads, Honda could have easily made an I-4 2.4L 240 HP beast the screams at 8000 RPM, but it just wouldn't sell due to the misperception that it's "only a 4 banger."

Unfortunately, the constant knock on the sluggish-selling RL has been the lack of a V8. Again, Honda knew very well that they could squeeze even more out of their AWD V6, but the general perception is that "a V8 is best" won out.

kyotousa

don't know about cars
but in computer parts such as dvd writers
parts made in Malaysia, China, and Taiwan have different quality
same as shoes........

which made people assume made in Japan car will have better quality control.

dom

I disagree. They sell a 2.4L 200HP engine just fine. 240HP would have been icing on the cake.

The reason IMO the engine doesn't make 240 is fuel consumption concerns and Tq. No way a 240HP 2.4L could acheive 30MPG with the TSX's weight. And it would have been difficult to keep peak Tq at 4K with 240HP. If Honda could have done it (reliably and with MPG concerns acheived) they would have, but they couldn't.

sauceman

No doubt about it. But we don't get Honda made in China cars here. Nor made in Mexico. USDM and JDM cars haven't been proven to be superior in build quality. It's just a myth that's been carried over from the late 80's early 90's that the cars built in Japan were of a quality that couldn't be duplicated in NA.

dom

I've said it before and I''ll say i again. If the TSX's "quality" is a result of Japanese craftmanship than I'll be sure to purchase a US or Canadian built car next time around.

narci

I agree with sauceman. It doesn't matter where it's built...it's the way you build it. This a good article on how Toyota keeps it's quality while building alot of thier cars in the US by allowing flexability on the aseebmly line.

http://detnews.com/2004/specialrepor.../a01-70509.htm

Kinda remind me of the movie Gung Ho haha

Black_6spd

My original point was a 2.4 240HP motor (@100hp/liter) vs. the J32 270 HP motor. The public has responded well to the TL sales and I'm sure an overacheiving 2.4 wouldn't have fared as well in comparison.

I think one of Honda's goals in designing the K24AX wanted to maximize low/midrange torque. This took priority over peak HP and resulted in a long stroked 2.4. Like you said, it would have been a tall order to maintain torque throughout the powerband. However, I don't think MPG would have been sacrificed. Keep in mind that the B18B (142 hp) has lower MPG than the B18C5 screamer. The additional 50 hp bump didn't come at the expense of fuel economy. Pretty impressive if you asked me.

majin ssj eric

The K20Z3 engine is basically the same as the K20Z1 with a redesinged intake and a new balancer shaft for smoother operation. It is also equipped with drive by wire and a new, speed sensitive electronic power steering system.

The 197 hp was measured using the new SAE hp calculations (which puts it somewhere near 206 hp under the old system).

Black_6spd

That's what I figured. Thanks.

In addition to the changes you mentioned, it pretty much has the TSX's 6th gear for better fuel economy. When the 05/06 RSX-S switched to the ITR's final drive ratio, the 6th became too short. As a result, you have RSX owners willing to fork over mucho $$ for our 6th gear and final drive we take for granted.

kyotousa

i see wat you saying...I was just pointing out that product does differ depend on where they were manufactured.

no doubt i would still buy tsx if it's made in US.....
however we all know japan always make reliable cars so which is a plus haha

STL

I guess you don't know that the TSX already has stereo subwoofers -- as I said before, the 6x9s in the back deck are dedicated subwoofers (and not full range drivers).

dom

Hmmm, good point. But I still believe if Honda could have got even 225 out of this engine without sacrificing anything, they would have.

jpt

You have issues with the build quality of your TSXs? Mine is perfect (well it had the seat squeak but that was apparently a design problem and the TSB fix seems to have fixed it). Then again so is my dad's US-built Accord.

It turns out that in the normally-aspirated world, high specific output and fuel efficiency (which can be translated as low displacement per horsepower) are the same goal, and are achieved by designing an engine that can rev really high (like the ~200hp K20 -- 100hp/L at 8k rpm, or the amazing F20C with 120hp/L at 8300). This is so that when you are cruising you can rev the engine slow and be generating comparatively little power = little waste. If you do the math, this works out exactly to lower torque at lower RPM as well.

The opposite goal is the luxury-car engine -- a quiet, low-revving, smooth, powerful engine that doesn't care about fuel economy at all. This is where big (not by American standards) V8s come in. The Lexus LS430 for example gets only about 65hp/L but gets it at 5600rpm. A big displacement makes for lots of low-end torque and a large number of cylinders keeps power delivery smooth (twice as many power strokes per revolution).

I think the K24's design is great for getting the best of both worlds. The long stroke provides for a better low end than the K20 and peak power at a much less frenetic 7000rpm, and in practice it's so smooth and quiet everyone who sits in it is amazed it is an I4. If the TSX had gotten a 240hp screamer, I probably wouldn't have bought it.

dom

Several. My two TSX's have seen the dealer more than any car I've ever had.

AT TSX

- Seat Track problem
- Driver's side headlight consensation (Replaced)
- Trunk recall
- Seat heater bulb burnt out
- Center armrest latch failed, twice
- Rattles galore
- VSA sensor had to be replaced.
- 3 sets of rotors, bad vibration when braking (although it was probly the pads)

MT TSX

- Radio needed to be replaced
- Same seat heater bulb burnt out
- Lights on driver side, side mirror burnt out
- Moonroof switch back light burnt out
- Engine vibration when idling that I still havn't got fixed.
- Rattles galore

Considering the previous 2 Honda's I owned before this (for a total of 5 years) only saw the dealer for oil changes, I'm fairly dissapointed. Not to mention they didn't rattle at all.

STL

The K20's peak HP is at 7800rpm not 8k -- or are you talking redline? If so then the F20C's redline is 9k (and the less impressive F22C's is just 8k).

STL

Both are 2004 models right? Man, I glad I didn't buy the first model year -- not to mention those ugly rims!

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Dom, I think you just have bad luck.

I've had two TSXs as well and I haven't had anything except the seat squeak...

dom

EDIT: Last first model year I ever buy.

dom

No really bad luck CG. If ou do a search of each of the problems I've had you'll see that others have also experienced the same problems. They are all somewhat common.

I guess its bad luck in the sense that I'm probly the only one to have had them all.

Having said all that, I still love the car. I must, as I was crazy enough to buy another one. But I have decided that my next major car purchase will not be a Honda/Acura, in all likelyhood.

EDIT: Also, these are relatively minor problems. As long as my tranny and engine hold up I'm more or less a happy camper.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Oh, how could I forget the whinings of my Canadian neighbor...

Yeah, you just seemed to end up with all the problems, which is unfortunate since most of us didn't have any issues at all.

dom

There have been bigger whiners than me on this site.

Of course their all banned now so....

I rarely complain about my rattles even though I think I've had pretty much every one ever pointed out, on both cars.

narci

Technically it's not a first model car is it when it's been out in Europe and Japan a few years before it debuted in North America?

dom

Then that makes all the problems I've had even more unacceptable. And it wasn't a few years, it was 6 months at the most if I recall correctly.

No, I think its different enough to still be considered a first year model.

jpt

7800 is right. Still fast.

STL

I don't think it was years (plural).

According to Wikipedia:
"The TSX is badge engineered from the CL-series Honda Accord sold in Europe and Japan. However, the TSX had a restyled interior and different suspension tuning when it was introduced. The interior is now standardized for all three markets."

So it sounds like the interior was all new when the TSX debuted.

STL

Agreed. Just trying to keep the facts straight.

dom

It was all new and I'm pretty sure it still is different from the Accord's sold overseas'.

majin ssj eric

The dealer had my TSX for over a month. It started with a check engine light which they "fixed" by replacing the wiring harness. Then the car started stalling out and running rough so I took it back and they replaced all of the injectors. This didn't solve the problem as I had a CEL on again the same day I got it back! After several weeks of replacing items and searching for the problem, it was discovered that a damaged O2 sensor at the catalytic converter was the culprit. This was after the dealer had done over $3k worth of warranty work on the car. Ever since then it has worked flawlessy (until I traded in on the Si last week).

Incidentally, I never had any of the regular problems (other than a very intermittent windshield creak and the loose driver's seat which I never got fixed) that most seem to have around here. Mine was also a 2004 and here I am now in another first model year car.

CL6

I would take an Si coupe any day. When the Si sedan comes out I think it will do great for Honda. I don't see the TSX being shopped as much with the Civic, but if someone was looking for great styling I guess so. While I think the TSX is a great car, I think it needs more juice. I just didn't want a 4, which is why I bought my CL. Honda couldn't put a 6 in the TSX because it would steal TL buyers because the car's have pretty much the same features. I like the styling of the Civic sedan better than the TSX and the Civic does have the ACE body structure and will have gazillions of tuner parts for it. I think the TSX is maybe for grown up Civic owners because it's not as ricey.

jiggaman

wow thats bad

darealest1

Exactly how is the civic SI sedan going to be lighter than the coupe? And by the way, I was at the dealership getting an anignment yesterday and my service advisor confirmed a few rumors we've been going on about. The rsx is dead, for starters, but a tsx coupe is on the way, so I guess that will be a more upscale replacement for the rsx, which I already thought of as the tsx coupe, so go figure.
Also, the new nsx is just preliminary, not a definite, and the rdx is supposed to be in show rooms in a month, but 3 mos. more likely

TSX.Fury

Same way the G35 Sedan is lighter then the Coupe and therefore faster

xenonhid

Ha ha DOM!


Looks like you are ready to Own a BMW or an Audi!

STL

All of this is rather old news if you read VTEC.net.

dom

Fixed.