CLSteve

I've seen a lot of talk here about the TSX vs. the 3 series BMW, the G35, etc. but not much about vs. the Mercedes C230 Sports Sedan. You know, the one that beat out the TSX in the recent MT three-way test.

I have owned almost every German car but the Mercedes (other than the old SL's, they never appealed to me) but what about this one??

Steve

Wolfie

The C230 only beat out the TSX in MT because the article is biased. After reading the article, it appeared that the TSX owned the C230 in every aspect that mattered (except panic braking). The C230 only won because it was viewed as being more presitgious (ie, snob appeal).

I have no doubt the C230 is a decent car. However, if you're looking for a sporty ride, you should be looking elsewhere. Try loading the C230 with options (not all, but at least with ones you think you'll want). It's up to you to decide if the less sporty, but more prestigious Mercedes is worth that many thousand dollars more.

ClutchPerformer

Check the numbers in that article. The reason they gave it to the Benz was because of "that 3-pointed star on the hood", not because it beat the other cars in any tangible way. Sure the MB is more prestigious, but you'll pay for it.

The point is, the MT article is crap. But the car might not be (it COULD be just what you're looking for). I'd recommend test driving one and making the comparison for yourself.

tycoon

I don't really trust Motor Trend's test result.
I don't think they are testing right.

Example:
1) Saab 9-3 Linear 5-speed = 170hp, goes 0 - 60 in 7.5 sec.
Saab 9-3 Arc 6-speed = 210hp, goes 0 - 60 in 8.3 sec.
2) TSX 6-speed goes 0 - 60 in 7.9 sec.
Corolla CE 5-speed goes 0 - 60 in 7.9 sec.

... I don't have the magazine with me, so I don't remember much, but these 2 are something that just doesn't get away from my mind. There more more examples.

Whatever it is, TSX is better than C230.

dom

Magazine test numbers will vary according to a number of factors. Driver, Car, Surface but most impoartantly weather. We've seen this with all the TSX numbers so far. The quickest time has been a 7.2 and the slowest a 7.9. The difference can be attributed to some if not all of the factors mentioned. I think the TSX is at best a 7.0 0-60 car and at worst an 8.0 sec car. Eiether way is no drag strip monster nor should it be.

ClutchPerformer

Unless the testing was done at the same time, under the same conditions (and only the TSX/9-3 Arc were) the numbers are not comparable.

Santacruz

Even if the performance numbers were equal. Acura has a much MUCH better reliability track record. Plus the value to cost ratio is better in the TSX.

1SICKLEX

C230 does nothing for me, advantage TSX.

Johns

I own a C230 Kompressor (looking to buy a TSX for my wife) so hopefully I can give an objective opinion. My C230 has 15,000 miles on it and is a pleasure to drive. Handling is very good ( a little too much body lean), brakes are excellent, and fit and finish are also excellent. The TSX has a different feel than the MB. I like the MB a little better overall but would be happy to drive either. Just a note about price. The TSX at this point is not highly discounted, but the C230 is. A very well optioned C230 K can be had for between $26,000 and $30,000. When I read the Moter Trend article, I have to say I thought it was right on.

tycoon

Whatever it is about performance, TSX is “built in Japan”, which is getting rear in U.S. To me, nothing can beat it. TSX sure isn’t a drag car. But if you’re looking for a drag car, then you’ll be looking for something else like Sti or Evo.

dom

I have to agree with 1SICKLEX, the MB does nothing for me, the C230 anyway. One other thing I think you should consider here clsteve is that MB's reliability has seemed to have gone down the toilet. I don't want this to turn into a reliability argument but its definently something to take into consideration.

As for the MT article, those particular writers and testers found enough reason to give the win to the Benz. I have no problem with that, but I'm certain that another magazine or reveiwer may come to a different result, it was that close. Its what floats your boat.

Would I buy a Benz, damn right but it'd have to be an S500 or 600 or SL.

Take Clutch's advice and drive em both and then make a decision.

AdamC

No way... My good buddies have STI's and EVO's and I can tell you straight up they are great rally cars (we all know that) and NO DRAG CARS!
2 of my buddies with EVO's have already ruined their trannies. WRX's 5 MT also doesn't hold up well when driven aggressively...
On the other hand, the STI's 6MT is indestructible because it is supposedly built by "the other car company" with boxer engine.
If you are referring to street-drag car, look at Mustangs, Camaros, Firebirds, and the ultimate Grand National!

tycoon

But isn’t Evo the fastest car you can get for around $30k?
It accelerates from 0 to 60 in only 4.6 seconds.
It’s the fact that Evo and STi are rally car.
I just didn’t care to look for American car.

finalheaven

I highly considered the benz against the tsx and do so even now. However i put the TSX on top. As for the motortrend review i think that they had enough reasons to let the benz win. However i considered the interior and the fact that i wanted the navigation system, and the tsx won. If you're planning to drive a manual, the c230 is not even comparable. However i live in LA, and i will be getting an automatic which i heard is very nice on the c230. Right now a 03 c230 can be bought for 1500$ under invoice, and the 04 c230 sedan at invoice price. At least that was what i was quoted for.

For now my first choice is the TSX. Depending on how much insurance difference there will be between the 2 cars, the last time i checked the c230 was MUCH lower then the TSX here in LA, so that will be the main factor. That and i need to either have a black or a carbon grey, otherwise the c230 it is.

DEVO

I'm actually looking at the c230 because it has what I want but at a price. So that is why the TSX is in the running. I'm stuck on RWD car, so that's about it... and bixenon lights (but that's not a show stopper).

Now... a 30K car without a CD player (C230), is ridiculous. So there are negatives about the c230 that turn me off as well.

tycoon

$1500 less than the invoice!? That sounds really good. That makes it hard to choose between C230 or TSX. But I still would get TSX for the reliability. You might eventually end up spending more car on C230 fixing it.

finalheaven

I think i remember reading a post about the chances the car YOU buy has at maximum a 50% chance of being one of the unlucky ones. Realisticly im guessing its more like 5% chance compared to acura's 1% or something. That however is a complete guess. Still there is warranty, and most people don't drive the car that long anyways. Either you lease or sell it. From the mercedes forums however there is only a minimal amount of problems that i've seen for the c230. So that's another plus too. For me i just want the navigation, although there are people who will install the full nav for $1400 with factory warranty as well.

Still for now, tsx first, benz second.

Brad

Two interesting and favorable articles are at:

Kompressor comes up short against Acura

and

Acura TSX surprises in style, price

TSXautoXer

Try accelerating that hard a couple of more times and I guarantee you the tranny will go. Especially on the EVO. Both of the car are NOT FOR DRAG RACING. A very aggressive took off on 4WD cars puts a lotta pressure on driveline components.

Just a note, when Mitsu go to WRC races, they bring along 5-6 spare transmission while other factory only bring 2 at most. I just got rid of my Mitsu and switch to Acura BECAUSE my transmission blew (2 yrs old car with 36K miles, ridiculous!). Remember, wake up and drive...AWAY FROM MITSU!!

TSXautoXer

If it's me, and consider I have some extra bucks, I will go for the Merc. It's RWD, the handling, if not great, is acceptable for 8/10th driving. Do get the AT coz the MT shifter sucks. And the car is quite loaded with no additional cost features like:
1. When you tap on the blinker stalk, the side signal will blink for 3 times for you to change lanes.
2. When you press the air circulation button on climate control, all windows and sunroof automatically closes.
3. Car computer (your mpg, avg speed, miles for fuel left, etc.)

Plus I heard the new 1.8L engine is smoother...

But for $27K, I'll stick with TSX.

tycoon

Wow!!! Mitsubishi must have really weak transmission. That's a problem. If I know about this, then I won't be able to drive it fast even though the car is fast... I had Mitsubishi for once and had it until 40k driving it crazy a lot of times, but it had no problem with transmission. Only thing is, the transmission for that car was "Built in Germany" Maybe that's why it didn't break.

James

yeah tell me about it.. my cousins '98 ford mustang has 150K+ miles... no major problem happened ever... haha must be one out of the million that doesnt crap out

gregor

I drove the C230 as a possibility. I wasn't thrilled by it. Typically German, and the dealer was snotty to boot. It was an OK car but it pales in comparison to the TSX.

larchmont

That was me who said that, and since now I'm being quoted on it, I thought I better show where I got it.

As I said when I first mentioned it, it's from Consumer Reports -- and as I look more closely, it covers only a 1-year period. It looks at how many problems were reported per 100 cars over the past year, for year-2000 models. Basically, how cars did in their 3rd year. It's safe to say that over any longer period, the differences would be greater.

Acura is #1, but never mind that. The main thing I see is that a lot of cars, probably most, didn't have any problems. (The average was 55 problems per 100 cars, meaning that some individual cars contributed more than 1 problem, therefore almost certainly less than 50% of cars had problems.)

And, although there are big differences between brands, with ANY brand you had at least a fair chance not to have any problems. The difference between the top brand (Acura) and the average is 34 problems per 100 cars. That means the difference shows up in about a third of the cars at the most. And even between Acura and the worst, the difference is 61% total problems -- meaning there's no difference in at least 39% of the cars, probably closer to half. And maybe this is the main reason most people don't care that much about reliability.

Here's a copy of the chart ("Probs per 100 cars," '00-yr models, past year):

Acura _ 21
Toyota _ 25
Lexus _ 25
Honda _ 32
Mazda _ 34
Subaru _ 36
Saab _ 37
Nissan _ 40
Mitsubishi _ 42
Lincoln _ 47
Buick _ 49
Hyundai _ 53
BMW _ 54

AVERAGE MODEL _ 55
_
Chrysler _ 56
Ford _ 56
Mercury _ 57
Plymouth _ 57
Dodge _ 59
Audi _ 64
Oldsmobile _ 67
Pontiac _ 68
Jeep _ 68
Chevrolet _ 69
Volvo _ 70
Saturn _ 70
GMC _ 72
Mercedes-Benz _ 73
Volkswagen _ 74
Cadillac _ 82

Here's the article:

http://autos.yahoo.com/consumerrepor...src=autos/eyak

gi'me

My wife recently purchased a MB C240 4matic (it suits her). I test drove the C230 K too. I thought the C230K is a fantastic car. These cars, as others mentioned, are greatly discounted now. I think the performance comparison between the TSX and the C230 is almost like splitting hairs. The C230K is solid, and doesn't rattle and buzz like the people have reported with their TSX.

That said, I'm glad my wife got the C240 because my choice for the purachasing a TSX is now much easier.

finalheaven

The C230 is a very very solid great car. The TSX is slightly faster, however the C230 offers better fuel consumption. As for the options/value of the C230, it still cannot beat the TSX, however how comes damn close with the huge mark offs. Like i previously posted $1500 BELOW invoice for an 03, and invoice for an 04.

Interior wise the TSX looks much better, however the refinement and the feeling in the mercedes cannot be beat. This two cars were the biggest problem for me in deciding what car i wanted.

What made me put the TSX sligtly over the edge? The navigation. I wanted one and to put that in the c230 will most likely come out to about 35k (that's with 8% CA tax though). The TSX coming in about 33k with nav. However this may all change, the last time i got an insurance quote on these 2 vehicles, the TSX was WAY too much more expensive then the c230. If that is the case again when i check from about 2 weeks from now it will be the c230 sadly.

93Kewl

larch,

Way to go on your neverending quest for reliability statistics! It's good to see that even Saab once again makes a good showing. I think your research has gone a long way in putting the playing field more in perspective.

larchmont

Blah blah blah blah blah!

P.S. That's true.

kenbiddulph

Both of these cars are good. Its about preferences.
The 230 can be a nicer car if you slap on all the options but you easily are pushing 35K with that. The TSX has the price advantage and the MB has the "snob factor". Nothing wrong with a little snob factor, you are paying for it after all. Drive them both and decide for yourself.

Personally I'd get the E55 AMG but thats a whole 'nother story.

MotownTSX

finalheaven, are you looking into leasing or buying? You do know that the depreciation of the c230 is nothing short of astronomical? Kepp that in mind before committing...

finalheaven

Buying... however if im correct the depreciation of the c230 Coupe is astronomical, however i thought the sedan was much better. I might be wrong. Due to a company who was planning to buy a lot of c230 coupes, canceled it, they were selling them for a little more then the price of celicas.

Are you sure you're talking about the sedan here and not the coupe? and if so where did you get this info?

finalheaven

From edmunds.com
325i
True Cost to Own* $43,750
Purchase Price Total $36,107
Average Cost per Mile* $0.58
Depreciation after 5 years $17,317

1.8t
True Cost to Own* $41,045
Purchase Price Total $33,452
Average Cost per Mile* $0.55
Depreciation after 5 years $16,233

c230 SEDAN
True Cost to Own* $44,397
Purchase Price Total $35,475
Average Cost per Mile* $0.59
Depreciation after 5 years $17,890

Other then the fact that for me i can get the car for around 2k less then the price on edmunds i would say im getting a damn good deal and the depreciation for it is not bad at ALL. They had nothing on the TSX as for yet.

P.S. my first choice is the TSX, the c230 is only for fallback. :P

larchmont

Attention Acura Inc.: Contact your billboard designer.

MotownTSX

Yes sorry, it was the coupe.