TSX vs Accord V6 vs IS250 vs A3 vs 3series vs S40 vs TL
 

I posted this discussion a couple weeks ago - my findings and observavations after shopping and a number of test drives.

Remember I'm looking for a commuter car from Manhattan to New Jersey so 1) it needs to be auto, 2) I still want to enjoy a sprirted ride on the weekends, and 3) I'm 6ft3 and my passengers are typically tall like me. Initially I loved the TSX on paper and to sit in, but after a ride in the auto I was underwhelmed by the power output. I could see why it begs for a manual.

TSX is still the #1 choice based on value for money $26k and 4.9% financing, reliability, useability (back seat size, fold down rear seat), and drive. Safety is pretty decent for all the cars in this group. I tried a 2nd test drive leaving the auto in "manumatic mode" - WOW - a completley different feel once you get over 3/4000 rpm and gears 2/3 where a lot of fun along the West Side highway. It will take some getting used to, but I think I can handle switching into this mode on the weekends. Placing the driver seat as I would normally, the rear driver side seat was the most comfortable of all. Interior is only bested by the Lexus.

Audi A3 is #2 at $27k (and I may still buy it instead!!!). Great ride, handling, and exterior styling is awesome. Padel shifters!!! 4 years maintenance is nice. I realize this is a bit of a emotional choice and thus a dumb one because of reliabitiy issues as well as value for money. Back seat is small and as quoted at $27k this is a cloth interior - only options are the DSG auto and sun roof. Sunroof in the rear is again a nice touch assuiming someone can fit in the back with me in the drivers seat! Nice plain tasteful interior. In some ways I actaully prefer cloth (summer, aging, comfort, etc). - the cloth on my 1985 Mercedes looks nearly new in comparison to any leather more than a few years old.

Lexus IS 250 is #3 but would be #1 if I could get it down to 30k. This will not happen. Interior is the best by far, styling is nice, quality is #1, and drive is nice. However, it is pricey at a least $33k plus higher 6.9% financing. However, the back seat is a JOKE meant for children under 12 only and the seats do not fold down - there is a small pass through. Complaints aside, the Lexus fit and finish seems in a different league from the other cars including the BMW.

BMW 3-series 325 is a great looking car and awesome drive. Highly desirable for these 2 reasons alone! However, I can't get one around here under $35k and after getting in the Lexus and Acura the interior actaully feels cheap! Really! I know some will be rolling around laughing, but after being in the Lexus 10 minutes earlier thjis car does just not do it. The leather has a nice texture but otherwise it was really disappointing by comparison. I can see why there are reliability issues. It should not be long before the IS 350 unseats it. Back seat was a good size and comfortable, but arm rest seemed flimsy as did all the cupholders.

S40 - few advantages outside price and safety. I belong to a Ford supplier and thus qualify for X-plan pricing and the reason I even included it. Nice interior, but very tight - although not as ridiculous as the Lexus.

In conclusion....(whew)...the TSX is a nice little package appealing not only to my emotion but more importantly my brain. While a part of me really wants / desires the A3 (german prestige??? looks?), the TSX includes heated seats, xenon lights, bluetooth phone connectivity, leather, power seats, back seat space, manu-matic transmission, and excellent relaiability for $1000 less than the A3. While the TSX still leaves a bit less than desirable power I am going to love it every time I head to the the gas station! Most likely I will buy one or the other this week.

Anyway my 2 cents, which as a 35 year old big city commuter, is likely to differ greatly from many of those whose priorities are mcuh different. I am sure my opinions may shake things up :-)

how long do you plan on keeping the car? reliability wise, i've had no issues on my TSX over the past 22k miles. my friend has an A4 and has had to take it in for random things from time to time and his car is just as old. the TSX is kind of like an acquired taste, i like mine more now than when it was new. has a lot of little cool features that make a difference in the long-run. i don't think i can go back to non-xenon lights ever!

Nice write up. I've owned my ABP 5AT/NAVI since December of 03' (and I'm sure I won't be the last to say this) and I am definetly still happy with my purchase. Aside from wishing for more HP, the primary focus of the TSX is its poise and well balance characteristics is what makes this car the most bang for the buck by far.

I liked all the same cars you did, but I only test drove the IS250 AWD and TSX. I sat in a S40, and it felt tight to me at the time (I'm 6'3"). I also sat in the 325 and A3, but I didn't want to test drive them because I didn't want to make the emotional decision either. I wanted a car I could keep for a while and not worry about the quality. I've read several magazine articles where the 3-series had problems during the test.

I test drove the IS250 AWD in November and loved it. I agree the interior is the best by far, but in the end I couldn't justify the extra $7000-$10000 (the way I would get it equipped). You can get a lot of great used cars in that range also.

I got my TSX a couple weeks ago and am more than happy with it. Would have I liked the Lexus more - probably, but I enjoy having the extra money in my pocket more.

Right - forgot to state that I expect to travel 20k miles per year. So reliability is impt. Also plan on keeping the car 5 plus years....I see a lot of old TLs still on the road, but not so many Audis!

I probably would not have purchsed the TSX if I had to go with the 5AT.
The 6MT makes this car enjoyable.

I've had my TSX since Sept of '04 and I like it more and more the longer I have it. I still never turn down an opportunity to drive it, to the store, the park (kids), school, wherever. I bot mine for $25k and put about $1k worth of mods into it. It's comfortable, classy, well-appointed, well-built, and I still get compliments from people about how it looks. It has, in my opinion, very durable, classic lines that will withstand the test of model changes over time. Moreso, I think, than the TL that looks, to me, like a TSX with too much air pumped into it. And I don't pull up next to myself at every other light.

The A4 and BMW are terrific cars and each brings things to the party that the Acura doesn't. But the TSX continues to be hard to beat if part of what makes you happy about owning a car is knowing you got a good price. (It does me and I think about that every time I'm driving next to a 325i.)

Best of luck in your decision!

I test drove the TSX, TL, Accord, and S40 and here's my take on them....

TSX - great value and sporty looks, especially with the 2006 models. A little underpowered but saves on gas =). Perfect balance of luxury and power. 8/10

TL - improved upon all the flaws found in the TSX with an even better interior and more horsepower, except it's hard to justify the $5k increase....especially when compared to 2006 TSXs. Boaty suspension and handling. Can't wait for the '07 to come out with all the goodies. 8/10

Accord V6 - economical but with a dash of luxury. But just a little too plain, too average. 7/10

S40 T5 - Waterfall console very unique and cool, but once you get over that, the rest of the interior is very crammed and cheap. Way over priced at $30k without navi. 6/10

Berkeley - your top 2 cars are the two cars in my garage. :thumbsup:

I drive an '04 6MT Navi TSX. My wife's daily is the A3 - DSG, Xenon, premium pkg, opensky, nav+, sirius, cold weather. I did NOT want the 5AT on my car, but on her car the DSG is just awesome. I could easily live with that instead of a 6-speed. We did the opposite of what you are considering with the A3 - ours is loaded. It came in at around 35k after all was said and done. So dollar-for-dollar the TSX wins on value by a large margin.

Performance - the A3 is way way faster in a straight line, but doesn't rev as high. The A3 feels good cornering also, but I prefer the TSX in that department. It's damn fun to plow through the gears revving way up high. So it's kind of a choice here. You will go faster in the A3, but might feel faster in the TSX.

I'm 6'5" so some of my thoughts might apply to you as well. I love the A3 steering wheel and seats. Way more adjustable. I actually have the headrest behind my head in the A3 whereas on the TSX (and most cars) when we tall guys have to recline the seat for head room the headrest is WAY behind us. That said, the left rear passenger would have no room behind me. I can't even get the seat folded down or a baby seat rear-facing behind me. It's only a little bit better in the TSX.

The Nav in the Acura is better. Honda/Acura really have the interface thing down. The VW/Audi system performs really well, and has some features I wish the Acura had. But data entry is a pain in the ass, especially while moving.

Audio is probably comparable from the Audi/Bose upgrade to stock Acura.

The OpenSky system on the Audi is noisy as hell while open at speed, but looks cool and is neat.

Reliability: Wife's car has 2500 miles on it. No issues yet. Build quality and squeeks/rattles seem superior at this point than my TSX did. But I do not have confidence that will last. Put another way, I expect to keep my TSX for years and I expect to get rid of her car before the loan is up. Even if we don't have any of the many many issues VW/Audi people have I just won't risk it.

Either way, I don't think you can go wrong really. :2cents:

Before I purchased my TSX (5AT) in January 06, I test drove the Audi A3 DSG and LOVED it. Although I'm a relatively conservative driver (especially in comparison to some on AZ, from how it sounds....) I REALLY liked the DSG and Paddle Shifters on the Audi.

Two things steered me towards the TSX though -- Overall Value and more overall space, especially cargo space. The A3 wasn't even wide enough to hold my golf bag without folding don the rear seats. And if I outfitted the A3 with everything that came stock with my TSX, it would have been thousands more. Still, if the A3 was just a bit bigger, I might have gone in that direction......

A nice side benefit of either is that you don't see many of them on the road.

I don't think that you could go wrong with either the TSX or the A3..

You should consider a FWD A4. It will price the same as a IS250 if you equip it the same as the TSX. Everybody always give reliabilty issues as a reason not to buy, but they all base it on their friends car. I own a 2003 A4, and have had no problems. I had a 2000 before that with over 60,000 trouble free miles. You will get the performance of the A3 and the room of the TSX. If you get a good lease deal the price will be close and you never have to pay for maintenence. Most places will also give you a free loaner. And to quell previous arguements about what Consumer Reports says, A4 was highly recomended and the TSX just recieved a standard recomendation.

I agree with this. I think Honda/Acura navi is still the best in the industry.

I find this very dependent on what type of music you're listening. The Audi/Bose upgrade seems to work really well with classical or jazz. But with pop or rock, the bass is lacking. I actually prefers the regular Audi audio system for pop or rock music.

*nod*

It's so subjective I didn't want to cloud the issue. If anything, I prefer the Acura. The Bose I am just not a huge fan of, but it does sound pretty good at high volumes.

I agree with you about the A4. My wife didn't like the interior as much as the A3 but it didn't bother me. As for performance, a FWD A4 can't touch an A3 - even with the same motor. The tranny just takes too much away - performance and fun. FWD A4s only come with the CVT. If you move up to a quattro you can get the standard auto but even that bites. When they sell the A4 with the DSG then maybe...

I've changed the 6x9's in the rear on my TSX and it still does not come close to the Bose in the Audi. With the Bose, I get tight clean bass, and the highs are crystal clear compared with the Acura system. I was actually kind of disappointed with the quality in the TSX. I would have thought they would put better equipment in it. I've heard that the Audi's stock system is lacking though.

A4 fwd is available with 6-spd manual. As far as performance goes, it will out handle an A3 and every acceleration test I have seen puts them pretty even. There is only a minor weight difference between the two. Less than 200lbs. I've never seen a test for the FWD A4, but I would guess that it would make up in weight what it loses in traction. As far as the interiors go, the A3 is great as long as it is loaded. The base model is kind of sparse. The A4 is tops no matter what. Interiors have always been praised on Audis.

Also the CVT in the Audi will rival the performance of a stick.

I find the bass much better in the TSX. It's good for Rap and Hip Hop, and other music that needs some kick.

This applies only to speeds under 15 mph. Once you get moving, I find the bass disappears. I don't know if it is road noise or some doppler effect, But it drops off significantly. Wish it was a little more powerful.

I think all these cars are too small for you and your friends. If you need to do carpool all the time, I will not get anything 4 cylinders.

In your case, I will go test drive the Mazda 6 or the Mitsubishi Galant. My friend s have these two. They are not bad at all.

I agree with you about Audi interiors. Awesome.

Clarification: I was only talkin auto on the FWD model. CVT as opposed to std auto. Of course they come with 6MT as you pointed out. Just trying to stay on topic for Berkeley who has to have an auto. :-)

A4 in it's fastest 2.0T form (FWD 6MT) is 1/2 sec slower to 60 than A3 (FWD DSG). 120 lbs difference probably causes that. The CVT is almost as fast as a manual - according to Audi it's 2/10ths slower. Like I said, once the DSG is in the A4 - wowee. You'll have auto A4s as fast as 6MT A3s.

The front suspension probably gets the A4 a slight nod on handling over the A3. It's like the TSX v RSX multi-link vs strut set-up. I like the looks of both but I like the A4 a little better, love those taillights.

If you go onto any auto web site and do a comparison, you will see that these cars are not really any larger. I checked on MSN. The Mazda is actually smaller in some interior dimensions. He would have to move up to an Accord or Camry. The Galant is bigger than the Mazda though, but is also but ugly. Total cubic feet will not always give you a good comparison. Look at leg room, head room, and shoulder room.

CVT should match a AWD 6-spd. It has in the past and Audi says so also. R&T test of A3-DSG 6.4/14.9, A4 AWD 6-sdp 6.5/15.0. In another comparo, A4 went 6.4/14.9 with a higher trap speed. Worst I have seen for A4 was C&D with a 15.5 quarter on a pre production model. Best Time for 2.0T was a GTI with 6.3/14.8. I think it's too close to call on all counts.

Thanks Kighter!

Two points - from what I see on Consumer Reports the TSX gets a double nod as does the A4 - no ranking yet for the A3. I do think these guys really have the best long-term results on quality (I even having worked for JD Power a couple years) BUT they seem to have lost their focus a bit on whether they are a) crusading for safe, reliable, fuel efficient, & decently prices cars OR b) if they are a flash car magazine covering power and performance.

CR on the A4 "The Audi’s interior shows impressive attention to detail. Crash test results are impressive. Reliability has been average." 98-03 models have very bad reliabiltiy ratings. Definitely beautiful cars, bnut not sura I want to be paying the repair bills after 50k miles....

CR on the TSX was somewhat lackluster for the 2004 auto model - although strange they both like the handling, but complain about the ride....guys, which is it! "Highs: Powertrain, fuel economy, handling, driving position, controls, fit and finish, crash tests. Lows: Ride, turning circle."

As to interior size the numbers just don't tell everything. The tall guy 6ft3 foolproof method is just to get in and put the drivers seat where you would normally, then go hang out in the drivers side back seat for a few...

BTW - appears I am about one or two days from purchasing my new 2006 TSX - now only whether to choose Black on Black or Grey on Black!

I'm not usually one who agrees with Consumer Reports. I have Recieved negative feedback for it in the past, so that is why I refrenced them on this one. The A4 recieved a check in a circle, which is highly recomended. The TSX just recieved a check which is standard recomendation. This was in the latest cars issue I saw at my in-laws. Most of the past bugs have been electrical for the Audi. But if you plan on keeping the car for a long term, at least they can be fixed. The TSX's problems, if I can recall correctly, were structural problems. How does one go about fixing that? What kind of ill effect will a structural integrity flaw pose while driving 75 mph? I would rather have a fuel pump cut out and call a tow truck than getting pried out of my wreck and going away in an ambulance. As far as interior space. I am 6'3" and 260lbs. I have more room in the A4. The backseat maybe a different story, but it is pretty even overall.

Wow! it is the first time I heard someone said TSX has structural design problem????? and VW is more reliable than Honda??????????? I dun drive a VW but my brother used to have a A4 and he got a repair bill that cost him more than the market value of the car when the car was 5 yr old so he just sold it as is. Also I sold my old prelude to an Audi senior mechanic and he told me he rather drive a 10 yr old Honda over a just over warranty Audi. And I have a BMW so I totally understand what their pain. :whyme:

:werd: :dunno: Exactly which structural problem would this be?

:huh:

Don't know, But when they gave a list of problem areas, The Audi had black circles in the electrical area and the TSX had black circles for structural. This was printed in the latest cars issue. When you look online the TSX does get the check in a circle though. It was only a check in the mag. It doesn't take a genius to realize that the TSX is inferior to the Audi structuraly though. I am reminded of this evertime I shut the door onit or buy the annoying rattles it has at 7900 miles. Sure it has great mechanicals. I guess this will help out the guy who needs to pull the motor out of it when it is in the junkyard. And once again it is somebody has a friend who had an Audi or knew a guy who spoke to ag uy who had an Audi. I am on #2 and also owned a 2001 Passat. #1 went over 60,000 with out a single problem, #2 has 22,000 with nothing wrong a rattle free, the Passat had 45,000 and only suffered a broken glove box lid, which was the wife's fault and I regret getting the TSX when it was time at the lease end. I thought I was being reasonable and saving money over another Audi. The car is an econobox compared to anything Audi has to offer. No matter how much you dress it up with leather and power acessories, you can not hide its budget based platform. Anyone who disagrees is in denial. How do you think they are able to build and sell an Accord for $18,000. They use cheaper materials and inferior body structure. I guess this is why they tend to weigh less. But the good news is that it will run forever, rattles and rust included.

Sorry, JTC05, I must call :bs: Your anecdotal evidence just isn't swaying me. And if your TSX sucks so bad, please do yourself a favor and sell it.

60000 miles on a Audi without a problem is a record is a miracle. But 60000 miles without a problem on a Honda/Acura .... so what, we all expecting Honda/Acura to run 360000 miles without ne issue.

It's gone at lease end with no sorrow. You guys are in denial. The TSX is cheap. It is an Accord dressed up to satisfy those who can't crack the nut on a BMW or an Audi. You can cry quality all you want, but these brand did not become prestigious by accident. Honda offers lower cost alternatives. they lure in with there long term quality, but they use inferior products in the interiors, the stereos, the body panels and the frames. As far as their up market cars go, check the reliabilty and amount of issues on the TL. That is a car that is in an A4's or 3 series league. It's not fairing too well.

Sorry....but quality interior and BMW do not go together. Have you ever been INSIDE a BMW 3-series? The interior is horrible!!! Dull design mixed with cheap plastic everywhere. Audi is only a little better but the design is still sooo old fashioned. Don't think I am biased becase I LOVE the exterior design of the A4 and 3-series...and the handling is superb. But please do not praise the interior quality of those two cars....

I definitely don't have to be the one to praise an audi interior. Every Auto mag and organization does it for me. I have been inside a BMW. While not as nice as the Audi, it is still way better than a TSX. A C-class mercedes I will give you on cheap. But not the Audi or BMW. The Acuras plastic are thinner and finished to color, not solid. Also the door panels are thin plastic and the dash is no where near the others quality level. The BMW's design is very contemporary and sleek. Far from dull. Audi. Old fashioned? Have you been in one, let alone ever seen one? Again denial. The TSX should be priced at $24,900. and $26,000 with nav. At that price it is where it should be. I'll admit the new A4 is a little high compared with previous, But it continually improves. An engine with direct injection, 10.3 compresion ratio with a turbo and better gas mileage than the TSX. It weighs more and will outperform it. Let's not start throwing in the AWD that is the best out there. I don't recall seeing an RL climbing a ski jump with nothing more than studded snow tires.

Oh no....BMW has cheap interiors, but nice leather and leatherette. Their plastics are HORRIBLE, and do not last long. Just go look at any older BMW - the door lock heads always broke off, and with the stereo buttons the paint or lacquer always comes off, exposing the orange plastic underneath. This especially happens with often used stereo preset buttons, trip computer buttons, etc.

Honestly, I don't think Honda, Toyota, even benchmarks products against BMW. Its no contest who is cheaper. In my experience with the German makes, mercedes has always felt newest for the longest, and in Honda seems to match that longevity with materials, albeit a notch down on the quality scale. My experiences with BMWs, the same consistent interior longevity problems always arise. As a references, we had a 95 325is and a 90 560SEL and my 1998 Acura Integra. The Integra and the Benz looked the newest for the longest. In fact we still own the Benz and the interior still looks like new.

That's funny because if I start a post TSX vs. C-clas, People will be coming out of the woodwork to bash mercedes. I like mercedes alot also, especially some of there newer models. I have always said that the TSX is a good car for mid 20's price range. But when someone asks about it vs. any german brand, the bashing is relentless. This is denial of admitting that your car is inferior. I'm not a huge BMW fan so I won't jump out and defend their interiors. They are a better car though. I would even say better than a TL. I like the RL, but again it is no A6, 5 series or E-class. Close doesn't count.

Some interesting viewpoints on the Audi quality and the "Honda" cheapness. I've had an A4 for 6 years and will be picking up an '06 TSX within a week. The A4 was slow then (although quick at passing speeds) and sloth-like now, relatively speaking. With 60,000 miles I've had a problem with a piston, a CV-joint, the idle sticks at high rpms occasionally, the rear differential has been replaced, the electronic info display has problems with the pixels, the leatherette console cover has detached, the gas tank flap squeaks, and early in the warranty the oxygen sensor repeatedly set off the CHECK ENGINE light (literally some 10 times). That being said, there have been no major $$ issues since the warranty elapsed and the car still feels rock-solid and handles very well--German quality, etc. etc. I would count this as an average ownership experience. I hope when I get the TSX, I will be able to objectively compare the two. We shall see.... :thumbsup:

get the TSX and mod it to give it the power that you want. you should not hinder gas milage that much. you would probebly improve it more.

Inferior, superior, better....

All subjective adjectives. It all depends what the CONSUMER wants. Each brand his their calling card:
Honda / Acura - reliability, efficiency, value
Audi - styling
BMW - performance, styling
MB - reliability (at least at one point), luxury, styling

With that criteria, if I'm a father who wants piece of mind reliability at a great value, the TSX is "superior" to your point. On the other hand, if I wanted a true luxury car, I'd get an MB.

Now that I write this, I suddenly realized that I really don't think Audi has a marketing advantage in ANY category? Maybe the whole package? Who knows.