RTSX-ASpec

i'm a little bit pissed/upset, i had an argument with a friend 2 days ago. he claims the sport shift is actually slower than pure automatic, he even challanged me to get another TSX AT for a TSX vs TSX race, one use SS and one use just auto. I was like if SS was slower why would they put it in cars nowadays and numerous reports stated the SS feels faster. he was like, people can say anything in reports, just to make you get the SS/buy the car/whatever. At that momment i just got really pissed.

Is there any LEGIT document that proves SS is faster than auto in this case TSX?

i really want to shut his mouth with proves, because if SS is indeed > auto, its hard for me to find a friend that 1. has a TSX AT and 2. willing to risk letting him race me with his/her car.

yes i know the manual is faster, lets not go there

thanks for the help in advance guys

GIBSON6594

I don't have any documentation on it, but i've also always heard that the SS technology actually slows the car when compared to straight auto

vitocorleone

Sportshift sure seems slower to me if I'm trying to just go from 0-60+. DSG may not be, though, in the new VWs etc. Sportshift gives more control, however, and can help maintain a higher (or lower) speed under various conditions.

jpt

The ss mode definitely takes longer to shift than full-auto does. I suspect you could get used to it and compensate by hitting + earlier in a race but I would not be surprised in the least if full automatic is purely faster. SS mode on automatics of any kind is basically a gimmick, a good auto can just do the job better. On some high-end cars these days automatics are faster than MTs even.

RTSX-ASpec

but.....i forgot where i found this.....

2006 TSX Acceleration Figures
6MT 5AT (Full Auto) 5AT (Sportshift)
0-60ft 2.75 2.80 2.80
0-60mph 6.9 8.7 7.7
1/4 mile@mph 15.3@95 16.9@90mph 15.8@93mph
NOTE: All testing performed with Vericom VC2000

lcrazyaznl

iTrader: (1)

On older cars the tiptronic was a slow ass system, but comapred to my friend's mazda 6 03 and kia optima 05 our tsx's does shift faster and smother than theres.

Beoshingus

TOV did a test on this as I recall. SS is definitely quicker in the 0-60 and 1/4 mile. The trick is not to let off the gas through the upshift.

Xtremespeed2102

if you know what your doing its faster.... plus you get the revs into the redline, iirc were still making power up there.
then once you shift your higher up in the revs and closer to the high revs..

Reach

You pretty much have to know the system, and know how full-auto is going to behave to beat it. But in an SS to auto race, I'd wager a bit of money that I could beat it, apples to apples.

I've floored my car in full auto and SS many times When full auto hits VTEC, it shifts at about 6.2k and lags a bit 1st-2nd, even while keeping the pedal all the way to the floor. If you've practiced it, you can SS + shift around 6.8k in VTEC, and it will shift before it hits the rev limiter and won't lag as much, still keeping the pedal to the floor. This is how you street drag the auto hehe.

Also, you have to consider the point where the torque converter is going to lock up, which is before the rev limiter. Look at some AT dynos (like mine) to see what I mean. You really want to beat this point on the shift.

Yes, I'm sure my car loves me all the more for the abuse it tends to suffer. Oh Hondata how I long for thee...

jlukja

And, the auto logic shifts before redline while in SS you can time your shifts right at redline. Here is the TOV article: http://www.vtec.net/articles/view-ar...&page_number=4

RTSX-ASpec

i've tried experimenting the shifting, one time i shifted AT readline and it lags to almost 7500, that's not good right? so its best to time the shift so that it will actually bring the rev to redline when it shifts? then i think i know the trick :p

and thanks for the vtec link, i checked it out too like 1 hour ago, i just totally missed that page, i went straight to the dyno and found nothing lol

jlukja

Yeah, you just need to develop a feel for it to account for the delay in the actual shift. At WOT you want to push forward on the shifter a couple hunderd rpm (approx. 200?) before redline because the delay will take it just to redline before the tranny actually executes the shift. BTW, the rev limiter on a stock TSX is 7300 rpm so if you hold it too long you'll bounce off the limiter (fuel is cut off) and your performance suffers. A reflashed ECU has the cutoff at 7600 rpm.

CarbonGray Earl

I'd say about 200 RPMs as well.

Xtremespeed2102

hmmm when i take it out if i shift soon as i hit the red area.... 7k? itll shift a few rpm later, which is right at redline

JTC05

When I pull out of this one toll plaza, I always race to this overpass When the road is empty. I have done this probably a couple dozen times since October. There is an expansion joint right at the overpass, so I know where to check my speed. When manual shifting I have hit 82-83 mph. In full auto I can never break 80. I noticed that in full auto it shifts sooner than would be ideal for performance. You can get a few hundred more RPM's of that v-tec power band by manual shifting.

aznt1217

Why is your friend even arguing with you tell him to get his facts straight. SS gives YOU Total control, the auto only feels quicker like all others said, because it shifts at 7000, do not shift at 7500 (you are 200 rpms above fuel cutoff--unless you got hondata). Shift at 7000 and you will land in the 7300, perfect peak for the stock ecu. When you SS it is definitely quicker because you get to stay in the power band longer assuming you know how to drive well.

bradykp

The only way you can say it's definitely quicker is if you shift perfectly all the time. Most decent drivers should be able to do this, but it's not a huge difference anyways for it to be worth arguing over. if you bought this car, and SS over Auto is an issue to you, you should have got the MT. Only reason I'm stuck with the auto is because it's the woman's car and she doesn't want to learn how to drive stick.

though someone's post about the new autos being quicker than the manny's is becoming true. it's sad, but oh well. we all must evolve.

lcrazyaznl

iTrader: (1)

The new mercedes speed 7 i think are fast than manuals. Scary how fast technology is going.

RTSX-ASpec

it was never an issue for me and there never will with SS and auto, the problem is my friend is saying how TSX auto is faster than TSX SS auto which pissed me off and i want more facts to shut him up

aznt1217

Yea, the shifts on those auto's these days are fast, especially VW/AUDI/LAMBO DSG system because of the utilization of Dual clutches and rev matched downshifts 0_0. I am stuck with an auto too because, city driving and the fact that my parents take the car out sometimes =T

Conman

Yes. Even super-exotic cars are going towards automatic and not suffering from performance....take for example....the McLaren-Benz SLR.

JCG

Temple of VTEC:

We never had the chance to fully test a 5AT version of the '04-'05 TSX, but the first '06 TSX we got our hands on was a 5AT Sportshift model, and overall we liked it. The gear ratios are longer and (naturally) spaced further apart than the 6MT, lending the 5AT car a bit more of a relaxed feel. Shifts are smooth, quick, and confident. At part throttle and in typical around town traffic, there's plenty of pep. Thanks to the trip computer, we noticed that the 5AT easily averaged over 25mpg in our suburban driving loop and over 33mpg at a steady 75mph cruise - both figures are a few notches better than the 6MT. The 5AT's transmission logic seems to be biased towards economy and refinement rather than all out performance, as it tends to upshift a bit short of the redline when left to its own devices. As you can see on the dyno charts on the next page, this motor is making good power all the way to the rev limiter, so obviously to extract the maximum performance from it, it's best to upshift as close to the limiter as possible. During our acceleration testing we were able to shave a full second off the 0-60 time by pushing the transmission selection lever over into the sportshift mode. This wasn't as easy as it sounds, because there is a bit of a lag in the sportshift system, so the timing is critical for upshifts, particularly on the 1-2 upshift.

2006TSX Acceleration Figures
6MT 5AT (Full Auto) 5AT (Sportshift)
0-60ft 2.75 2.80 2.80
0-60mph 6.9 8.7 7.7
1/4 mile@mph 15.3@95 16.9@90mph 15.8@93mph
NOTE: All testing performed with Vericom VC2000


One other curiousity that continues with the TSX's K24A2 is the way the starter seems to struggle a bit to turn over this relatively high compression (10.5:1), long stroke motor and you may find yourself cranking the motor over a bit longer than you might be accustomed to with Hondas. It's most noticeable on cold mornings when the battery's not in its most energetic state. We can't see any real problem with it, but it does seem to be a bit out of character.

Benz_05_TSX

iTrader: (1)

^ Here's our prove....

and when i did put it in SS mode, i Know i can reach a higer speed sooner than left in full auto~

gcjin2007

not sure about the tsx, but as a rule of thumb sportshift is slower than full auto, it is on the tl-s. the reason is that in sportshift, u enter a command to upshift, then it goes to a computer and askes it to upshift, then the computer determines whether not to and then shift. whereas in full auto, the trann does its own thing and instead of takin commands. does that mean sportshift is less fun, hell no. if u look at the numbers, its only a tenth of a second off, but if u do get down the shift timing realllll good then it may be little faster, but MUCH harder to do. also, sportshift is def faster in real world situations where u have a rolling start or somthin. so the question: is full auto faster then sportshift? A: yes, but only under certain conditions.

JTC05

DSG is not an auto. Auto's use torque converters and fluid to operate the tranny. The DSG has computer controlled clutches and linkage. It is definitely a manual. It is direct drive. You just don't have to worry about the clutch and as a result this will alow the computer to run it in it's own mode which will alow you to drive it like an auto. Ferrari and Maserati's works with the same principal, but without the dual clutch, it's not as smooth.

JTC05

I don't know about that one. Look at the tests again from TOV. It's a hell of alot more than a tenth. The the amount of time the computer takes to react is probably hundreths of a second. There is a delay from when you push the lever to the time of the shift, but the engine is still accelerating hard. You just have to time it right. It's not that hard once you get used to the car. If you can even time it right when it hits the limiter that it shifts, it bangs the shift hard and fast. Almost reminds me of my old firebird with a shift kit. I think this is because it is anticipating the shift. As a rule of thumb. In performance applications where the auto is tuned for max performance, it is always faster than a manual. Unfortunately manufacturers are not tuning them for max performance.