patbrass

Don't get me wrong, the TSX is a great car. The problem is that I just found out that I am a V6 (or inline-6) addict.

Yesterday, I went for a first test-drive of a TSX 6MT. Even if the engine is very smooth for a 4 cylinder, it's still far away from a V6. In the past, I had many 4 cylinders ('92 Integra, '95 Talon TSI, '97 Prelude, '00 Forester) and had no trouble with the engines. I specially loved the vtec in the Prelude. BTW, I currently drive a '01 Jetta VR6 MT.

I was pretty sure that the engine in the TSX would be close to the one in the Prelude. So that's why I was almost sold to the TSX even before test driving it. Unfortunatly, I wasn't impressed. The VR6 in my Jetta pulls really harder. In the test drive, I downshifted from 6th to 4th speed at 80 mph and let me tell you that if you do the same with the VR6, the difference is amazing.

I don't want to insult anybody here, but below 4000 rpm, the engine felt and sounded like my wife's Sentra.

Anyway, I guess that I'll have to wait for a test drive of the '04 TL 6MT.

If I am really really impressed, I'll buy it. If not, I'll go for a Audi A4 3.0 Quattro 6MT (or even a Mazda 6s w/Sport Pck 6MT)

P.S. Other minor things that annoyed me was amenities that are absent in the TSX but present in my Jetta:
- Passenger Power seat
- Driver's seat and mirrors multiple memory settings
- Moonroof controls not accessible for passenger
- One-touch passenger-window opening/closing
- I know that it's not major, but when used to them, it's difficult to go without

vinsanity

How often do you ride in the passenger side of your car? You make it sound like you ride more than you drive. Good luck with the Jetta.

patbrass

In fact, I don't ride in the passenger seat. But my wife does a lot. Like I said, these are MINOR things. The only real issue for me was the engine.

My Jetta is not reliable, for sure, and I don't trust it for trips longer than my commute! But beside that, I think it has a good engine and lots of amenities for the price (I have the GLX and paid 22.5k)

TinkySD

The tsx isn't for everyone that's for sure. Hope you are happy with what you decide on!

People have to be happy with how a car feels to them, but I think in a lot of ways the tsx is better acceleration wise than it feels. The torque curve doesn't peak terribly high(about 155lbft @ the wheels) but it is flat and strong all the way up to redline which never gives you that rush of speed a torquey motor will but will keep the speedo climbing smoothly and steadily. As opposed to previous generation motors where there is little torque below the vtec point this motor will feel a bit flat. That isn't because it makes any less top end power just doesn't have the surge you get with vtec since the low end is much stronger. Peak torque according to dynos is actually about 2700rpm.

Case and point -- This is an excerpt from the C&D article "Consequently, the powertrain harmony makes for brisk acceleration: 0 to 60 mph takes 7.2 seconds, which is as swift as the Lexus IS300, quicker than the Saab 9-3 Vector (7.3), but a few ticks slower than the BMW 325i (7.0) and Mazda 6 s (6.8). It should be noted, too, that the TSX’s 5-to-60-mph street-start time (7.7)—a more realistic indication—is only half a second slower than the clutch-burning launch, indicating that the closely spaced gear ratios make the most of the 2.4’s power band. The quarter-mile time of 15.6 seconds at 91 mph is quick as well, and a mere 0.2-second behind the torquier Bimmer, Lexus, Mazda, and Saab." A different mag even has the tsx tuning 30-70 passing times a full second better than the m6s.

Trust me when I tell you I'm not trying to change your mind about your decision... just provide some counterpoints. Bottom line is you have to be happy with the feel of the car you bought and the tsx might not do it for you.

jiggaman

i think pat brass is another one of those people that start threads like he did just so that we can convince him he should buy a TSX.

TinkySD

i totally concurr taht the tsx doesn't ever feel particularly quick...which might be important for alot of people. But it moves pretty darn good. The teg, eagle turbo and prelude he mentioned are all motors that are very peaky which really give that feeling of explosive speed.

bob shiftright

200hp TSX vs. the 220hp 3.0 V6 A4, Car and Driver reported 0-60 7.2 vs. 7.1; 0-100 19.0 vs. 19.1; ss 1/4 15.6@91mph vs. 15.5@92 mph.

And $28,990 vs. $37,690.

ClutchPerformer

patbrass

I didn't want to play that game but you started!

200hp TSX vs. the 220hp Mazda 6s, Car and Driver reported 0-60 7.2 vs. 6.8

And $28,990 vs. $24,500.

ClutchPerformer

If you're gonna follow that logic, then get a Neon SRT-4 and save yourself a lot of money.

Edit: I think shiftright's point was that you spent a bunch of time lamenting about how slow the TSX is only to appeal to a car that is demonstrably not faster than the TSX (and costs a bunch more to boot). I think you'd be better off in the Mazda 6s.

darth62

It is actually more like $27,000 vs. $26,000. A fully optioned Mazda6 has an MSRP of about $26,000. And, the price of the TSX, sans $2000 NAV system is $27,000. That price difference of about $1000 will be gone in less than a year, due to the massive depreciation that M6 suffers (currently, the worst depreciation rate in the class).

If you keep your car for three years or more, the M6 is going to wind up costing you a lot more to own than a TSX. The M6 does have several large rebates right now, but he lease residual is more than 10 point higher. Depreciation is going to be sharp.

patbrass

The cool thing about newsgroups is to have different opinions on the subject. Trying to ridiculise one because he has a different opinion is immature to say the least.

I began my post saying that the TSX is a great car. I really think it is. Everybody have different priorities when they are looking for a car: some will look for reliability, performance, look, prestige, amenities, etc.

Even more, if you take one item, e.g. performance, you still can break it: acceleration, top speed, cornering, braking, etc.

I wasn't talking about 0-60 times. I was talking about how I prefer the smoothness, feeling and sound of a V6.

With that said, comparing the A4 Quattro and the TSX solely on 0-60 times is almost useless.

Other important point: I don't care if the TSX is a few thousand more or less than a Mazda6 or Audi A4...my decision will be based on whether I love the car

Conclusion: like TinkySD said, it's all question of feeling...

gilboman

not just feeling..they are faster....a GSR, eagle turbo and lude will all pull easily on the TSX 6spd.....but i did grow tired of a peaky engine..i want torque everywhere..and the more the better

jcg878

I think your list of TSX omissions is completely valid. The 1st two annoy me - I hope they fix that in future model years.

I didn't think I'd be happy with a 4-cyl either, but I really like it. I feel like it's as smooth as a V6, but I'm not deluded into thinking that it's torquier. If your looking for a great sounding V6, get a 330i. They sound cool.

If you don't think you'd be happy with a 4 cylinder engine, you're probably right. I think a lot of people ridicule the TSX's 4-cylinderness before they drive it and realize how much fun it is. You did, so I wish you luck with your car search.

One thing though.. if your Jetta is not reliable, why are you looking at the A4? It's not so hot in the reliability department either (but it sure is sexy... kind of like a trophy wife who can't cook and keeps spending your money).

darth62

Have to agree with you here. You're going to have to live with this purchase day in and day out for some time. So, saving a few $ now, just to be unhappy later makes no sense. If you can afford it, it make sense to spent a litte extra to get yourself the car you like best.

BTW, if you are going to spend the sort of $ it would take to get an A4 V6, you might wnat to consider taking a look at the TL.

patbrass

In fact, the TL is definitly on my short list. I am just waiting to test drive the 6MT.

BTW, beside the TSX, I "eliminated" other great cars...the G35, IS300, 325i, S60 and 9-3 Vector.

I began considering almost 10 different sport sedans. Now I only consider 3: the '04 TL 6MT, Audi A4 3.0 Quattro 6MT and the Mazda 6s 5MT...

I know it's weird to cross shop the Mazda6 with the TL but l don't really look at prices (I don't say that money is no object: else a M5 would be my choice ). I just want a car that puts a big smile in my face everytime I floor it in the twisties...

ClutchPerformer

Sorry for being immature earlier. How about 330i? It's definitely in your price range.

I agree about the M5: "the most desirable sedan at any price, ever" --Motor Trend (written before the new E55 and RS6 came out, though....I wonder what they'd say now?)

patbrass

ditto

Definitly a great car. But a bit too small (trunk, rear space) and will be re-designed next year. And having to pay $475 for Fold Down Rear Seats is a joke...

If money is really no object, then I would want the 3 of them, plus maybe a Maybach 57.

And definitly a 360 Modena Spyder

For the winter, I'd have a Hummer H2 too. ahh...dreaming...

bob shiftright

Or the Neon.

I brought up the Audi because I thought the Audi was being benchmarked here.

One's subjective impression of performance of a car may differ from the objective numbers. I suppose that's why the car magazines started to test them 50 or so years ago. If a car seems slow when it's actually fairly quick it's an accomplishment.

Certainly no ridicule intended here. This is why they make ice cream in both vanilla and chocolate flavors. I'd never claim vanilla is better than chocolate or vice versa.

TinkySD

i'd be willing to wager that lude, gsr and tsx mt would all be identical on the drag strip....run it from a 5mph roll and tsx would walk em the turbo..especially if tuned at all would be quicker.

TinkySD

I find it interesting you're still considering the m6s. To be truthful i haven't driven one. But in stock trim there is a big torque hole under 3k rpm(less than the tsx) due to some funky swirl valves that aren't terribly well designed. Most people claim you really have to flog them off the line for a smooth start. Also there is supposed to be a big delay on the order of half seconds when shifting and for the poewr to come back on with the drive by wire system. You should check out mazda6club.com ... there are some good threads about how to remedy that dbw issue.(grounding).

Any thoughts of an evo or sti? Those are some serious performers.

patbrass

hum...the '97 Prelude weights 2960 pounds with similiar HP and torque...

patbrass

Easier to move Mount Fuji than to convince my wife

TinkySD

peak numbers are good indicators, but not everything. The prelude has 10 percent weight savings...big check for it there. but the tsx mt has more aggresive gearing meaning more effective torque at the wheels lbft for lbft. For example, in first gear 1 lbft of tsx torque = 1.11lbft of lude torque.

tsx % gearing advantage
1st 11%
2nd 7%
3rd 12.7%
4th 10.4%

Secondly you have to look at the dynos.
It's a bit hard finding a stock h22a prelude. here is one with an iceman intake and dc 4-2-1 headers.


languid low end..explosive top end.


Now look at a tsx dyno

At basically every point on the torque curve the tsx motor is actually outputting more toque. up to 5500rpms the tsx torque advantage more tha makes up for it's extra weight. Above that the discrepancy is less than the weight difference. This is double important in that you spend most ofyour time in max acceleration (after first gear) in the top end of the rev range. However it's tempered by the fact that tsx effective torque is worth more at the wheels than lude torque because of the gearing.

As you can see it all gets real messy to crunch through. Realistically what would you expect? The tsx with it's greater gearing and healthier torque curve should jump into the lead off the line....and then slowly get realed in and passed if the race goes long enough.

With a well executed high rpm launch a lude should be able to negate that low end hole that it has...however they would need to be a good driver. The tsx on the other hand is easy to launch if you have some good tires! From a roll where the lude has to struggle though taht low end it will get walked.

TWong1200

As an ex-owner of the exact car that you currently own, I'd have the say that I'm MUCH happier with the TSX. Don't get me wrong, I too loved the "little" things about the Jetta GLX. All the little amenities and knick knacks were great. BUT, reliability (or lack thereof) really hindered my happiness with the car.

In regards to the power, again....I agree with you. The VR6's torque and awesome sound was amazing....BUT, the I4 in the TSX has a much better upper end. Something the VR6 just did not have. I couldn't stand how it choked up when revved up. Another great asset is its handling ability. The Jetta is horrible.

But you have very valid points that should stop you from purchasing one if they're that important to you. Besides, the fewer TSX's on the road, the better. I see one or two TSX's every other week. I love it!

My $.02

patbrass

wow! I am speachless!

That prelude dyno reminds me the sweet vtec spot around 5000 RPM

patbrass

Finally after all the discussions we had in this (interesting) thread, I will say this:

I want everything the TSX has, except the I4...I mean I want the reliability, handling, the look and the sweet Nav...

uhmmm...let me see....

this car EXISTS!!! it is the '04 TL!!!

TinkySD

trust me I know how you feel. I wasn't in the position to spend more on a car than the tsx cost so my criteria were a tad different. If I was in your shoes I probably would be driving a g35 coupe. The new tl wasn't out when I was in the market The old tl-s was temping...but not quite right for me either.

ecsw

Then, buy M6 It will put the smile on ur face with the least money. Not like A4 V6. or TL if money is not an issue.

WhoAmI

Before you buy a Mazda6 check this out

http://www.4doorzoom.1hwy.com/m6_rust.html

jiggaman

get the new Audi S4

tsx-mdxman

The S4 supposedly starts at about $47K...if he can get a TL for $35, is the S4 worth (at a minimum) $12K more than the TL for a V-8, a little more quickness but probably too much weight up front?
After owning a vehicle with a massive V-8 and another with a V-6, I thought I'd never be able to "settle" for an I4 again but the TSX engine really surprised me - it feels and sounds great. No disrespect, Patbrass but I find your comparison with the TSX powerplant and the one in your wife's Sentra spurious.
_________________________________
04 TSX CG AT/NAV
03 MDX SSM TOURING/NAV/RES

rb1

Repeat after me:

"Precise comparisons of engine output made on different dynamometers are not meaningful."

rb1

You mentioned fold-down rear seats. I don't think you can get a TL with these...

patbrass

S4 would be a dream...but the TL price is probably the top I could afford. BTW, I read somewhere that the new V-8 in the S4 is only 20 pounds heavier than the former V-6 2.7 biturbo...

Agree. I carried myself a little bit! (but to defend myself, I said it compares at low RPM)

GSI

Patbrass,

I had a 2000 Jetta VR6 auto and agree with you on some of the virtues and features of the car. The Jetta is a very good sedan with a great engine. I miss the low-end torque every day and the auto down power windows. I was just like you when it came to 4 cylinders- thought I would never own one again. The value, amenities and performance of the TSX changed me. The TSX gives up some of that down low that you are used too, but has a top end that is just as quick.

What I do not miss from the Jetta is the crappy shifting of the auto, the MAF sensors that break every 6 months and cost $500.00, the broken window regulator, the damn squeaks from the dash and the lousy dealer service. I bought my Jetta with 3 miles on the odometer and traded it in on the tsx with 86,000 miles so I gave it a good try before kicking it to the curb. I only had 10 payments left to boot. The last draw was when it stalled on me with my 8-month pregnant wife. Had to go!!!

TinkySD

Yeah I agree with that which is why i never put any numbers in my analysis Just what you would expect to happen. As long as they are the same model dyno(both were dynojet) variances shouldn't be more than 3% Less if they are calibrated regularly.

I still contend a gsr, prelude and tsx 6mt will all be really close on a drag strip. They all offer much different driving experiences though.

WhoAmI

There is some engine issues with the new S4. Maybe it's due to bad quality on the first few batch of S4?

teombe

To be sure... But after having driven an EVO at a recent GM ride and drive, I can say with certainty that it isn't an "everyday" car for most people. It's loud.. I mean LOUD. The tires transform every road imperfection into a frigging rock concert. And the engine sounds like a subwoofer. But, it did easily outhandle the corvette I drove earlier that day on a 25 mile twisty course.