fdl

That other thread about shifting too early into 6th and burning out the clutch (which I still say is BS since noone has put forth a reasonable explanation) got me thinking, I often lug the engine a bit during rolling stops by going into 2nd. I usually try to never ever downshift into first, unless I am going extremely slow (almost stopped). So if i roll through a stop, or even make a right at a red, I drop it into 2nd and crawl through , sometimes between 1000-1500 rpms.

So, does anyone else do this?

And, is it bad? Should I drop it into first instead?

Just curious.

Viking

I do the samething, drop down to second. I don't think it's bad, cause going down to first doesn't feel as smooth.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

As long as the engine isn't stuttering, I can't imagine it being harmful on the engine.

ClutchPerformer

I do. It's fine b/c the engine doesn't lug until about 700 RPM.

leadtrum

is it wrong to just coast in neutral if you're going to a stop instead of engine breaking and downshifting through all the gears? i've been told different things

cmf

I roll in second as well, only time I use first is off a dead stop.

ClutchPerformer

It's not wrong, but downshifting is more fuel efficient and saves you from riding your brakes like a slushbox driver.

drchaos

How would downshifting be more fuel efficient?

This doesn't make sense.

ClutchPerformer

I really should make this my sig......

(start at post #28)

PixelHarmony

I do the same thing all the time. Sometimes I have to end up clutching to keep from stalling. I've actually stalled out and then clutched and unstalled. It's a split second thing since I see all the red lights turn on and then off after my engine lugs really hard around 600RPM. Has anyone else done this before?

ks112

the only way you can burn out a clutch when your in too high of a gear is when you start from stop in a high gear. When your in say 5th gear and you try to start from a red light you have to ride the clutch real long before it'll engage so this is the only way you can burn out your clutch prematurely.

gfxdave99

Doing a rolling start in 2nd is fine by me, never had it lug or bitch, it can even start from a dead stop in 2nd and it doesnt complain too much, and if you are really easy on the gas and do it right you can even do a smooth start in 3rd. (not that i would reccomend it every day)

dom

What costs more, brakes or a clutch?

leadtrum

never heard the fuel efficiency issue, i can understand the braking thing though. i'll have to try both and compare and see how it goes.

ClutchPerformer

Clutch. But it's possible to shift without wearing the clutch appreciably. It's not possible to stop your car without wearing the brakes appreciably. I've never seen a clutch replaced b/c someone downshifted "too much". When my parents taught me to drive stick, they MADE me downshift every time I slowed down (even though I didn't want to, since the concept was hard for a n00b to grasp) because they do it all the time. They've never had a clutch replaced on any car they've ever owned.

And again, saving brakes isn't really the issue here--that was just a jab at you ATers. I'll stand on the fuel economy point.

JTso

iTrader: (2)

If you can start rolling easily in higher gears from a dead stop, then it can be a sign of slipping clutch... However, rolling start in 2nd is fine.

majin ssj eric

Um, you've just met a guy who had to replace a clutch because I downshifted too much. I used to downshift at every stop, almost as if it were a game to see how far I could go without having to touch the brake pedal. Within a few months the clutch started slipping and $800 later I vowed to never brake by downshifting again. Considering brake pad replacement costs run no more than $300, I'd say its better to be safe than sorry and just shift into neutral.

gfxdave99

I did it at the salesman's urging on a demo with 800 miles on it and it started in 3rd without a lot of bitching.

I wouldnt do it every day, but it is possible

ianS

I think there is a lock on the 1st gear that you won't able to shift in unless you are stop or slow like almost stop.

keejoonc

1st gear should only be used for taking off from stand still or when you are about to stop anyway.

Proo

I do it (coast through stop signs) sometimes. I'm more scared of getting caught by a cop with nothing better to do. But I usually do press the clutch in because I go just slow enough so it probably would start lugging the engine, and that "jerk" hits when the speed gets to that point where the idling kicks in and reactivates the injectors. So I wear down the clutch a bit, but probably less than if I actually stopped completely and went back to 1.

I coast in gear over speed bumps though.

tony4311

I do the same.

As far as coming to a stop I don't down shift or put it in N.
I just let it coast in whatever gear I'm in until I'm slow enough, then put it into N as I stop.

ks112

well depends how your down shifting. are you going like 40 and then just put it in second gear and pop out the clutch? proper way to slow down in a manual is using both the brakes and downshift. hit the brakes pop the stick into a lower gear stay on the breaks well letting the clutch out in a controlled manner.

oh and if it costs you 300 to get replacement pads your getting straight jacked. if you goto the auto parts store you would notice that 4 pads for the tsx will cost you no more then 65 dollars canadian. and if you can change a tire you can change brake pads, and if you can change brake pads you can change brake rotors.

aaronng

The 1st gear is actually very short and the gearbox is a close ratio set. So if you are moving a little bit (around 6-12mph), 2nd gear is fine. If you drive normally using 1st gear and shift at 3000rpm, in 2nd the revs are at 1000-1500 anyway, just like if you did a rolling start with 2nd gear

gfxdave99

Ive been known to disable VSA and drop it in 1st going 10 or so around a corner and unleash hell at the apex

Proo

I almost always try to rev match when I downshift, especially into 2nd (which I don't do very often... 3rd can take you almost down to 0). I don't know how much it really matters for the clutch, but it's a lot smoother and faster (and therefore seems like it does matter).

BusyShifter

I tried to search a thread in the forum regarding to the proper procedure to perform engine break, but I did not find a straight forward description. So here is my question. Popping out the clutch right after shfting into a lower gear in a MT, I usually experience a jerky deceleration in the car. So I guess to avoid the jerky deceleration, one can either ease out the clutch slowly, or use right foot to the accelerator to give it a little gas. However, easing out on the clutch results in the same effect of riding on the clutch, hence, wearing the clutch prematurly. And it is alwayst bad to wear out the clutch like that.

So, a smooth engine break is either achieved with the famous heel-toe technique, or by pressing the clutch all the way down with the left foot, while applying right foot on the break, and pop out the clutch at the car speed slowed enough. I guess my question really is, can a smooth engine break be done by pop out the clutch? Thanks for the reply.

tsxhondatuner

seriosly speakin at stop signs i never go into first which makes it bad cause i never make a complete stop unless its a blind turn i always keep in second cause its so much more smooth.

sauceman

I'd say I do it half of the time, depending on the possibilities. But if I can stay in 2nd, I definitely do it. Makes for a smoother lauch.

aaronng

find a way to tap the accelerator hard and then pop the clutch. If you use heel and toe, then it is called heel and toe. If you use both sides of your right foot, then it is foot and foot. Whatever way you choose, it is rev matching, and that saves your clutch and also helps you decelerate because the revs will drop if you don't press the accelerator in low gear.

ClutchPerformer

You need to learn how to rev match.

ClutchPerformer

You forgot rev matching!

ClutchPerformer

YES!
Of course. You just have to match revs first so you don't get a big jerk. I let my clutch out on downshifts as fast as I do on upshifts (which is pretty fast).

leadtrum

what i don't get is why people press the clutch in twice to double clutch? what am i messing up or doing wrong by just holding the clutch after pulling the car out of gear, reving to match the correct rpm for the gear i'm shifting into and then letting the clutch go?

i tried both while driving around the other day and didn't much a difference really except the extra pressing of the clutch.

sauceman

In the FAQ, there is at least one thread explaining this, and saying that double-clutching isn't of any use with the synchronized gearbox we have on the TSX.

joerockt

I've had a car and a truck both for around 4 or 5 years and never had a problem with the clutches on them and I downshift all the time.

If you had to replace a clutch in a few months, you already had an existing problem waiting to happen.

And by the way, downshifting isnt any worse then upshifting. You put stress on the tranny either way.

afici0nad0

i try to do both. coast in neutral and downshift whenever i come up to red lights or traffic.

but more often than not, i usually coast in neutral. habit i guess, and less work.

if i lived in a city with a lot of hills/mountains, different story then...

joerockt

Funny, ever since my post above, I've found myself coasting instead of downshifting these days...

TSXsurf

brakes are a lot cheaper than a new clutch..

BigMontana

There seems to be some massive confusion about these techniques! I'll try my hand at explaining them:

REV-MATCHING: Using the throttle to increase engine speed to match the speed of the transmission input shaft before releasing the clutch.
Example: You're driving in 6th and encounter some slower trafic ahead. As you slow down your engine speed drops to about 2500 you decide to shift to 5th so you can pass them easily. In 5th, the engine will be turning about 3300rpm or so. Here's the problem: when you take your foot off the accelerator and depress the clutch, by the time you shift the transmission into 5th the engine has slowed way down, probably to about 1000rpm. If you let your clutch out now, you will feel a big jerk as the momentum of the car revs the engine up to 3300 or so. There's also clutch slippage (wear) in the process.
The way to correct this is to use the throttle to speed the engine up to approximately 3300rpm just before you let the clutch out. That way the engine and input shaft will be spinning at about the same speed and there will be virtually no jerk or clutch slippage and therefore almost no wear.

HEEL-TOE: Manipulating the brake and throttle simultaneously with your right foot while clutching with your left.
Example: You're on a racetrack and you're approaching the end of a straight and will have to slow down for a turn. You want to brake as late as possible and then get back on the throttle as soon as possible. Since you have to slow down, you will need to downshift. Remembering the previous situation, you will need to rev-match in order to prevent a big jerk when you let the clutch back out. This is especially important in a hard turn because a sudden jerk could cause you to skid. In order to do things as quickly as possible, you brake and rev-match at the same time. You apply the brake with the ball of your right foot, depress the clutch with your left, shift, and then use the outer edge of your right foot to blip the throttle before releasing the clutch. You are now in the correct gear and as soon as you hit the apex you can start applying power instead of spending time shifting.

DOUBLE CLUTCHING: Depressing the clutch, releasing it, and then depressing it again while shifting in order to match the speeds of the transmission input and output shafts.
This one's more complex. To engage a gearset in the transmission the input and output shafts must be spinning at the proper ratio (that gear ratio). This is the job of the synchronizers. When you move the stick into a gear, the synchro for that gear uses friction to bring the input shaft to the correct speed and resists fully engaging until that happens. Modern transmissions have very good synchros that last a long time, but they will wear out eventually. Double clutching minimizes wear on the synchros and is also the way you have to drive a car if they are worn out.
Example: You are turning a corner very slowly and would like to downshift from 2nd to 1st gear but you find it very difficult to put the transmission into 1st unless you are nearly stopped. The reason this happens is because 1st is so low that the synchro has to do alot of work to spin up the input shaft. To accomplish this, and be kind to your transmission, you depress the clutch, shift the transmission to neutral, then release the clutch. IMPORTANT! While the transmission is in neutral and the clutch released, you have to rev the engine up to about the speed that it will be running after the downshift and then depress the clutch again. You then QUICKLY shift the transmission into 1st gear before the input shaft has a chance to slow down. The hard part is now done, just rev-match and release the clutch to prevent a big jerk. This will minimize the work that the synchro has to do. By exactly matching the revs, it would even be possible to complete the shift without using the clutch at all.

When I drive, I always rev-match when downshifting, I double-clutch if I'm shifting into a low gear while moving (coasting up to a red light and it turns green), and I heel-toe once in a while just for fun.

Sorry for the lengthy post, I hope someone gets some good out of it.