ianS

The quality different between Germany & South africa won't tell on new cars. Go drive on some old 330 & 328 and compare it with 323 or 325, you will know what I meant.

waTSX

Fair enough.

FWIW, I've talked to a number of BMW owners who've not had any more trouble with their cars than Acura owners have with theirs.

ilitig8

The problem is here you do not seem to understand BMW outside the US...

Outside the US, BMWs can be found with no options very easily, it is just the US where you will have to order a no option car. In the US BMWs are not sold stripped as a rule, this is the reason 320s and now the 323 exist elsewhere but not here. The one big positive for people who have the option of buying a 323 is mods. You will have tons (albeit some expensive) of chassis, brake and cosmetic mods and (not sure about Canada) but forced induction will be plentiful. I have seen some wicked Euro 320s that were they here I would be concerned about doing a track day with them in my M3 least I might wanna debadge for for the next session...

ilitig8

In the past it has had a lot to do with their torque curve or should I say plateau, if you compare the area under the torque or horsepower trace it was often clearly larger than many of the competitors. This margin has decreased as other manufacturers are building better engines with high tech that catches or sometimes surpasses this.

Mokos23

Are you implying that Canadians can't make good quality cars? j/k.

I don't care about the 323 anyways, it isn't offered here in the USA.

bbbradley

Have you ever actually driven a RWD BMW in the snow with snow tires? I have and found it to be a very competent winter car. On summer tires it was useless as is my wife's A4Quattro on summer tires, but with four snows both are winter demons.

A poor winter vehicle is very often a function of improper tires.

waTSX

This exact sentiment has been voiced by Bimmer owners at various BMW sites. I think the RWD in the snow thing has been overblown. Snows make all the difference.

dom

If he is he has no idea what he's talking about. Canadian plants win quality awards every year. Which is why Toyota decided to build their new plant in Canada and not the US.

F23A4

Correct! And that's why, people shouldnt read too much into the peak HP numbers.

kenzo

Agreed. This is one reason why the turbo four Subarus are so fast even with moderate 'peak' HP numbers; most of that peak HP rating is available over a wide RPM range.

cp3117

Everyone always compares their TSX or TL to BMW .....I was originally in the market for a TL but realized it was out of my price range for what i wanted. I then looked at the TSX and drove it and realized it was a good car for the money, till I drove a loaded VW jetta 2.0T....same price as a TSX but better performance and handling. If you wait a few months I believe they will also come with Navi.....just another option out there for a car i think is being overlooked when it comes to value.

Jason

The Jetta is a joke compared to the TSX. Why not buy a Civic?

biker

Yes, the Jetta might compare on the surface, but get past the first couple of years and the advantage of the TSX will become obvious.

cp3117

Well the jetta 2.0T out performs the TSX in almost every area and the quality of the interior i find is equal or a little better than the TSX (seats are more supportive).
The 2.0T was rated the best engine in its category for 2005 (which is also used in the Audi A4) and BMW took 1st in 6 of the 12 categories.
As far as reliability goes the new jetta has been getting good reviews along with the TSX, but just from listening to the different threads here about all the squeaks,rattles and vibrations that the TSX and TL have it doesn't give me a lot of confidence in the car that I first had.
The new jetta and passat have been getting great reviews and are said to have jumped a class into these line of cars......so to say its a joke to a TSX!! Well I hope acura excecutives don't have the same outlook on the compitition as you do, because thats how a car line starts its downfall.

Tintin

i owned the last generation jetta. very nice car, however they are infamous for being known as a car that sits in the shop!

i would take any car with rattles and what not over a jetta that will have transmission issues, engine issues, etc. Ok, maybe things look good now, but wait a little and the stories will come out about their reliability.

i would never compare an Acura to a VW or a BMW! my opinion though.

btw, i think TSX is the best buy for your buck.

absolude

No offence but the Jetta in no way outhandles the TSX. The so called sporty GLI with 18 inch wheels and 225 BridgestonesRE050 got the same roadholding of 0.83 as the TSX shod with crappy 215 M+S Michelin.
From Car and Driver:
"On the skidpad, grip was an unimpressive 0.83 g. We expected more because the A3 we recently tested achieved 0.82 g with all-season meats. On the road, the GLI squeals its tires more than we like, but it never wants for grip."


The GLI suspension has limited performance potential.
Struts in the front and 4 link rear is a primitive design.

Jetta's steering totally lacks road feel. My good friend bought a Jetta and is consistently complaining about the numb steering feel. It must be very bad because the guy doesn't care for sportiness and couldn't feel the difference between FWD and RWD!!!

gsrthomas

Isnt the Jetta made in Mexico?

I know the bug is.

Mokos23

Yup, the Jetta and bug are made there, so I don't count into good reliability for these cars.

The Passat is made in Germany.

No brainer picking a Japan made TSX vs. a Mexico made Jetta.

West6MT

Yep, I read an article about the VW cars now being produced down in Mexico. Quality has gone down.

kensukikatayo

Just like how the CL & TL trannies were made in the U.S. for those few years and they kinda went to shit... Japan =

dom

Can't disagree with anything you've said, but I'd have a tough time buying a Jetta simply for it looks Its one fugly car IMO.

gdcwatt

Nice to find this thread, because I was down to a spring decision of 323 vs 06 TSX, although the 06 CSX with 155hp 2.0L engine (est. 8.0 sec 0-60mph) may offer a car that I'll let the kids drive, and save me $10,000, plus a pile of fuel, insurance, and financing costs.

I've only driven the TSX, and my first thought was that, if people drove this car, Honda would not sell half of the Accords that it does, or that all Accords would be more engaging cars. On paper, however, only a TSX AT driver should feel good about beating a 323.

I thought that US 3's were built in South Carolina, but I was planning to ask, because freight and PDI is $500 vs $1400 tax-in for a TSX! Actually, it's $1400 for a Civic, too, and they build the damn things 20 minutes from where I live; I'd feel that I wasn't getting scammed if I paid the same $1400 for the Japanese-built CSX/TSX.

I've seen enough 325's/328's with snowtires that can handle the snow, but, as winter approaches, I have pretty much come to the conclusion that sophisticated engineering/traction control and stability programs will NOT be able to compensate for a wife and two daughters who have little interest in trying to understand the implications of the phyicics involved in getting from A to B, in the snow. Plus, a few years with a minivan have taught me that I do a lot of driving on two lane roads, and that there is always another string of minivans in front of me, with drivers who are obviously trying to save some fuel - and I'm thinking that the 323 is going to run out of breath in the middle of a pass.

There are two other performance details about the 323 that haven't been mentioned. The 323, with considerably less torque than the 325, also has gearing that is 10% talling in 1st, and 9% taller in second, than the 325. Published 0-100km is 8.0 seconds, vs 7.1, although fuel economy figures have not been listed on bmw.ca. Lacking all the numbers, I looked at bmw.co.uk, and found that the 2.5L engine there has a significantly wider, and more powerful, useful powerband. Peak hp is 218 @ 6500, vs 174 @ 5800, and peak torque is 183lb-ft @ 2750, vs 170 @ 3500. I don't care iff BMW is using SAE 04 to rate its engines, but what they are offering to Canadians, in the 323, sounds like a dog, for people who would rather drive a BMW for the sake of driving a BMW.

I am looking forward to some test drives.

ianS

And BMW like to use a high final drive ratio to boost up the 0-60 time on their low end model such as 3.14 on E46 325 when 2.93 on a E46 330. Which is one of the reason why 325 use more gas then 330. So only go for the top of the line of BMW otherwise stay with TSX.

gdcwatt

I forgot to mention the BMW "paint tax" is $1,000, here in Canada, unless you want your car red.

ianS

Wasn't it only $700? And it is only apply to the econ model... 3 series only(hm.. dunno how about X3). And you can choose Red, White & Black.

gdcwatt

Well, it was the 323 that I was talking about, and true, the paint tax is for the "metallic" colours, but I'm leaning toward blue - which is one of the metallic colours - but my recollection is that bmw.ca listed this privillage at $800, plus $120 PST & GST, which is... a grand, as far as negotiations go.

The BMW 323 might also appear a bit undertired, on stock 205/55-16 rubber - the new Civic sedan comes with that size tire, although the Honda weighs some 500lbs less. So it's vulnerable in the twisties, too, and probably in braking.

rb1

That's a high final drive ratio? Are you talking just the final drive gear or the overall combined overall ratio in top gear?

Anyway, there's a tradeoff between fun and economy with this. I found the previous E46 325 to be geared perfectly -- it probably runs very similar rev's in top gear to the TSX, maybe just shy of 3000 RPM at 70 mph.

gdcwatt

For the 323 and 325, the final gear ratio is 3.23; it's 3.15 for the 330. All numbers are for manual transmissions.

Powered by Honda

So what your all saying is the 323i is only made so bmw can take back some of the sales they lose to TSXers and base IS250's?

aaronng

And is made in Mexico that bad? BMW 3-series are made in South Africa.... And the TSX has a final drive ratio of 4.760 for the 6MT. Now that is short. Have to consider the gear ratios as well, not only the final drive.

gdcwatt

What I'm saying is that BMW is being sleezy in the way it is trying to move Canadians to their brand, with a 323, and then move them up to a "325". It makes me wonder if there was a problem with the electronics, like Car & Driver or Motor Trend magazine had, would they jerk me around, or step up and fix the problem, without me having to haggle over it!

What I'm saying is that I would pay for a more fuel efficient 2.5L English engine, which puts out a wopping 44 more horsepower, and more torque at 750 lower rpm, than the Canadian 2.5L. I don't care what people think of my car, but the right engine for the times is the 218hp 2.5L, which we can't get - yet! Their manufacturing and distribution network can obviously deal with a 325 and a 330, so is there really a big cost/profit reason for giving Americans a less than ultimate driving machine. The TSX has finesse, and I like that, because it is a satisfying car to drive. There are a lot of reasons why I never owned a 5.0L Mustang.

Maybe I don't understand BMW owner demographics, which must be varied, because they sell 300,000+ 3-series cars per year, around the world. Perhaps the 323 is really intended for rich parents to give to their daughters, so that their kids "won't hurt themselves" while making them, and themselves look good.

Does it really cost $2000 to put cruise control into a car? Ask Hyundai. I think that the TSX isn't really viewed, by BMW, as competition for the 3-series, which is outsold by the TL something like 3:1. In my mind, the imputus for the "power wars" which BMW and M-Benz re-started in the early '90's was because their cars were being embarassed everywhere by slightly modified Honda Civics - and I ought to know, because I had one that could pass 325's with ease on a racetrack, and I admit that I'm really not that good. It must have been the car.

Saintor

I think that the TSX is too expensive for a 4 -cyl. at 34900$CAD and the new 323i with both Sport and Premium Packs is priced right at 38900$.

As mentionned, this is a detuned version of Europe new 2.5L (originally at 215HP) which equips the Euro 325i.

TSXforme

I think the reason for the inception of the 323 is primarily due to the fact that Canada is a smaller market (in comparison to the states) and that we have less disposable income. BMW is trying to capture more of that entry level luxo market.

Belzebutt

Not only that, I think it's politics too. Canadian car companies made a deal with the government for voluntary emissions reductions, and offering more small-engine models is one way to do it.