SaraWI

Ok..I have to admit while the TSX is my first love, I'm attracted to the new Hybrid Accord. I'm seriously considering this car over the TSX for a couple of reasons. First, I've always had my doubts about the TSX being a 4 cylinder. I have a V-6 Accord w/ 200 hp now and I'd hate to pay more money to only have the same horse. Second, I like the fuel economy part mostly because I want to save money on gas, but also because I like the idea of being part of the idea that we need to depend less of oil as a primary source for fuel. I don't like the body style nearly as much as I like the TSX AND it's only available in 4 colors at first and no sun roof option (as far as I know). I also like the Acura name recognition and the longer warranty. I really need to drive the two back to back, but I was wondering what you guys think. It's a tough one because they are not really apples to apples, but they are both Accords of a sort and both very nice Honda products. I've included the link to Honda's site. I just got the brochure in the mail today from my Honda dealer. It won't be here in the U.S. until December. I have to seriously consider this as I have been obsessed with the TSX since Jan of 2003 and have been a member of this community since we were all at "the other site." I feel like I'm cheating if I even look at any other car!!
Accord Hybrid

Revenent

Don't feel bad - I'm looking at it as well.

Though I hoping Acura will bring hybrids to their line by either 2005 or 2006 - then I'll trade-in on that.

Jim Holloman

So, if you pay more money, you want more horses? Or, do you want more fuel economy? Or, do you want both? There is a whole lot more to a car than horsepower, number of cylinders, and fuel economy.

SaraWI

I know that, but these were just some of the arguements for and against. I wanted to know what your thoughts were and some of the reasons why you bought the TSX or why you'd buy or not buy the Accord. I'm not saying it's one way or the other. That's why I asked for other people's opinions.

Revenent

Hmmmmm - ironically, if the numbers come out right, the hybrid might be cheaper than the TSX.

So in comparison...

Mind you, it's still ugly in the back.

fdl

Personally i would shy away from the accord hybrid, only because therfe are still some questions around the reliability of the hybrid systems.

How will these things hold up over time, and will repairs be costly?

Also, with that extra weight the handling will only get worse, so if thats important then TSX is even more of a winner than before.

Other than those 2 things I think the hybrid accord is great, and will only get better as the technology gets better. Honda is really on the right track with this stuff

xizor

its ugly and everyone has one (even though the engine is different). that hybrid accord will be an awesome buy however, but will still lack the intangibles like driving fun.

TSX 'R' US

I guess I still have a few lingering questions about hybrids...which is why I won't get one just yet...

How much is repair on the electric system going to be after the warranty is over?
There is still a combustion motor in there...so will it cost the same to maintain both the engine and the electric motor vs. just an engine in the TSX?
How long will the electric system last? Will it still run fine when you decide to sell the car?
Maybe even ask what the resale value is for a hybrid...



When I decided on an Accord vs TSX, the looks of the car played a larger role than I expected...exterior and interior...
HP numbers may matter....but which car better suits your driving style? For me, the TSX was perfect...it had enough power to keep me happy...and on top of that, I still love looking at my car every day

Jim Holloman

I have no experience with hybrids, so I cannot offer any opinion relative to a specific hybrid. My general opinion is that most of us SHOULD BE driving hybrids. We are using oil at an alarming rate and, contrary to what appears to be a popular opinion, it is not renewable. It is my opinion that the governments of the car producing nations should be encouraging the development of hybrids in an effort to avoid future chaos.

Now, regarding the TSX, you have probably read the same points many times before:

1) Excellent handling
2) Good torque and power (will handle the tallest mountains with ease -- well, as long as there is a paved roadway that is reasonably smooth)
3) Good mileage (fuel economy)
4) Good size; not too small and not too large
5) Well built -- with quality design and construction (although there are certainly areas that need improvement)
6) Lots of amenities that make driving, and traveling, more pleasant and enjoyable; including low noise levels.
7) 4 yr/50K warranty
8) Excellent handling (fun to drive)
9) The Japanese record, and practice, of "continuos improvement"

Revenent

Yup, totally agree with those points.

Which is why I'm waiting for Acura to come out with a hybrid. I figure by that time, Honda would have gotten it right (fingers crossed).

Also, by that time, the Civic Hybrid would have gone through at least one cycle, as well as the Prius, and the Accord probably one consumer-buy/sell cycle.

acoga

Honda's doing an interesting thing with the Accord Hybrid. The problem with current hybrids is that they're only purchased by idealists. What I mean is that there's no way that the extra mileage will offset the enormous financial penalty at time of purchase.

Honda has recognized that, and that's why they're positioning the hybrid above the EX V6. They're basically saying that it's the ultimate performance Accord, and by the way it gets better mileage than you'd expect from a high performance model.

VeniceBeachTSX

There's another thing to consider with hybrids in general.

The benefits are mostly in city driving, where you're able to conserve energy during stop and go traffic. Much less of a benefit in highway driving where energy use is relatively constant and ultimately has to come from the gasoline engine.

For example, the Civic DX (auto) gets 29 city/39 hwy, with a 115hp engine.

Compare to the Civic Hybrid (CVT) that gets 48 city/51 hwy, with a total of 92hp combined drivetrain.

The savings on the highway is largely from dropping the total available max power by about 20%. There are obviously some savings due to the hybrid drivetrain, as even highway driving involves some accelleration and deceleration, but it's much less pronounced than during city driving.

As I'm mostly a city driver, the hybrid concept is very interesting to me, but it's one I'll probably wait on for a few years, especially since I've got an almost new TSX. I suspect that this will be my last pure gasoline vehicle. If you're mostly on the highway, and especially if you're in an area where you can keep the speed pretty consistent, the hybrid drivetrains will probably disappoint.

rsx_r04

I feel exactly what you just said.

Not everyone will have the hybrid, but then again, not everyone drives the TSX.

Looks and handling are far more important to me than hp. I guess the fuel economy is a bonus, and if i were driving over 20,000 miles a year, i'd definitely buy a hybrid.

rivvin

The think the two cars are not comparable. One is more sport and the other is not. I never even considered the accord...at least not the four door when I got my TSX. I thought they belong to two different people. TSX, the younger crowd that wants some fun and looks and the Accord...my 50 year old mom! Get the idea? However, I think the new hybrid is awesome. Has more horses, better milege, better for the earth, etc. However, until most cars are hybrid or better, I will still drive my gas powered car. But the dam gas price is driving me nuts!!! I just paid $2.40 per gallon just yesterday! Almost 30 bucks and the gas tank wasn't even empty. But, if you want the hybrid accord then go for it. I'm sure you'll be happy with it based on your posts.

osubuckeye98

I looked long and hard at getting a hybrid (Prius) before I got my TSX and here are my findings:

A hybrid is optimized for fuel economy above all else. A sport sedan is optimized for perfomance and style. No current hybrid attempts to crown itself as an alternative to a sport sedan. Rather, the current hybrid sedans offer a glimpse into the future of the no-frills economy sedan, where practicality, comfort and fuel savings rise above all else.

That being said, if you were looking at the TSX because of its sport sedan character, I would second guess the thought of a hybrid Civic or Accord. For me, I value sport sedan character over practicality and fuel savings; however the TSX offers a bit of everything so that is why it was my pick ultimately. It balanced everything much better than the competition. The Accord has gotten too big and I just couldn't stomach the styling. The Prius had a ridiculously high acquisition cost and a bunch of snobby dealers to go with it. I guess I don't hug trees enough to justify a current hybrid; i'm still on the burning dead dinosaurs diet.

To get the most out of a hybrid you must spend 80-90% of your drving in urban crawl. This is because most hybrid powertrains operate in zero-emissions mode only under 25mph. Above that and the gasoline engine kicks in. If you drive mostly highway, then mpg will be comparable to a turbo diesel. I drive mostly highway during the week on my daily commute and because i go to work early I tend to avoid rush hour so I wouldn't see huge savings at the gas pump, though I would be harming the environment less at the cost of performance.

Aside from looking at fuel usage, you have to take into account how the batteries are made and how they will be disposed of when they are done. This can have a tremendous impact on the environment.

Hybrid powertrains are very complex. There are many motors, gears, circuits and software components. The more components you have in a system, the higher the likelyhood that something can go wrong. Complex systems require a high level of integration between each component meaning there is little margin for error. What this also means is that if your car breaks down, only manufacturer-backed dealers can fix it. You can't just tow it to any repair shop.

Here is an excerpt from a recent C&D article on the actual cost of a current hybrid:Hybrids are here to stay and they can only get better. It is just a matter of time before they make hybrid powertrains for sport sedans; afterall they are trickling into SUVs now. Let's just hope by then battery technology wil have gotten better so we can have our pie and eat it too.

biker

The only people you might please with getting a hybrid are the tree huggers (and yourself if you're into the image thing). At this point there is not a single advantage of a hybrid. Financially it doesn't make sense (the payback is almost always longer than the typical time a person keeps the car) and overall performance wise the hybrids are no better than their gas versions (notice I said "overall" - the slightly better 0-60 time of the hybrid Accord is overshadowed by a heavier car that probably doesn't handle as well). Even the manufacturers don't come out ahead - even at invoice Honda probably makes more money on a regular Accord over a hybrid one.

Jim Holloman

A very good point, but they fail to take into account two factors; inflation and the increasing cost of gasoline. It is very conceivable that we will be paying $4.00, or more, for gasoline in 10 years. Inflation alone will double prices every 10 years at a rate of 7.2 percent. Then, add the increasing cost of energy that we will experience over the next 10 years. Of course, such considerations will be nill to someone that trades cars every few years.

I purchased a new Pontiac 6000, that I still have, in 1984 for $13,000.00. A TSX today is twice as much. But, after adjusting for inflation, the cost of the TSX is actually less than was the cost of the 6000. Over 20 years, the capital cost of the 6000 has been $50.00 per month. The capital cost of the TSX over 20 years will be $100.00 per month (excluding financing, registration, taxes, etc.). But, in 20 years from now, a $100.00 bill will buy less than half of what it buys today.

Another interesting point is that the TSX cost less than a Buick LeSabre, less than a Pontiac Grand Prix, and not much more than a Pontiac Grand Am. Anyone that buys a domestic car today without considering Honda or Accord is a fool (I don't recommend Toyota because of the way Toyota handled the engine sludge problems).

I anticipate that a significant number of individuals will end up buying a hybrid, not because of the fuel efficiency (that is an added bonus), but because of the characteristics of the car; super quite and smooth, quick acceleration without any noise, easy to maneuver and park. From what I read, you basically have an electric car while in town.

sauceman

I can definitely understand your desire to be less dependent of oil companies. I have the same issues with Big Oil. The hybrid way may be a sound financial decision only in the long run, but my understanding is you drive a lot of miles throughout the year, so considering it might just be financially sound in the long run.

I'm not a treehugger, but I am sensible to efforts in reducing pollution, and I try to do my part reasonnably. To me, if I can't overcome the cost of hybrid technology by gas savings, within reasonnable lim its, I'd still be glad to have a hybrid, ad actually send my money to manufacturers who are developing technologies around renewable resources. Throwing your money constantly and without regards to oil company will only just encourage them in their actual practices of abusing the energy market. Just think of how they keep making the crude oil prices shoot ever upwards just by speculating on it.

If I could, I'd jump on the Accord Hybrid in a heartbeat, but I have payments on the TSX, and the purchase of a Smart coming up for my wife. Also, I'd like to hold out a little and see whether or not there will be a hybrid TSX introduced in 2006 as rumors say it will.

Good luck with the decisions.

samir786

buying a hybrid car gives you a real good tax break...something that might be significant enough to consider the Accord over the TSX.

Nick250

It depends on what you are looking for in a car. For me it comes down to do I want better gas mileage in a slightly bigger more comfy car (the Accord) or do I want a nimble more fun to drive car (the TSX). It's no contest in my mind, I want the nimble more fun to drive car and that is why I have a TSX parked outside. Your priorities may be different, get the one that floats your boat.

Nick

jcg878

I think the only reason to buy a hybrid is a selfish one, not to decrease our reliance on foreign oil. IMO the way the global oil market is heading, a reduction of US oil use may not even matter with the rise of the middle class in India and China. As more Indians and Chinese buy cars and consume oil, demand is going to rise irrespective of US oil use. So the cost of gasoline will rise, possibly enough for you to save money if you hold onto the car for awhile. However, I don't think a small reduction in US oil use will matter much in the long run


jcg, who would consider a hybrid anyway

teg_to_bike

I'm sure a hybrid TL is in the works... I would consider buying that if ther performance and handling characteristics are similar to the gas version. Even if it does cost more money in the long run, I would still consider it. The satisfaction of knowing that I am comsuming less oil is worth the extra money.

If we all drive more efficient cars, our country will rely less on middle east oil. This is a big reason I didn't consider the IS300 or 3 series. I only wanted 4 cylinders.

ric

The Honda Hybred will probably be my wife's next car, purchased as much for the various social and political statements noted above as anything. They will not amortize their cost, and at the moment, the manufacturers are subsidizing the costs of these beasts in order to get some of them out on the street.

I think, in the long run, whether we like it or not, reliance on fossil fuel will force change, and the hybreds represent a tiny baby step towards that direction - Eurpoean cars made for European use have been far thriftier for years becuase of the cost of gas on that continent (will never forget spending $80 to fill the tank of a rented Ford Mondeo in Florence about three years ago........... does make one think twice when you sit in the driver's seat - filling the TSX is now a $30/tank). I doubt that the presence of a few thousand hybreds on the highways of the US will change international geopolitics, but it is a start.

The manufacturers are early in their exploration of this auto type, and I doubt the technology is particularly "timetested', so my wife will be buying an experiment. It will be interesting to see what happens to the hybred concept over time as R/D exploration continues to focus and improve on the "prototypes" that are out there.

Frankly, the real challenge for the US in reducing reliance on fossil fuels is grappling with the harsh reality that we have developed an entire culture around the mobility and independence of the auto - it has defined our cities and changed the very nature of the way we live. As oil costs continue to rise, it may be that the freedom of true independence of transportation will be available only to the very affluent, which poses a real challenge as to how we will continue to function in urban centers that are based on the concept of suburbanization for social privacy.

SaraWI

Good points..thanks for mentioning them..

It's my understanding that the hybrids are more expensive to repair and maintain, but they do qualify for a tax break that is meant to cover that exact thing. As for reliability, hasn't the prius and civic hybrid been around for some time now? Or are you thing 10 year +? Looks are important, but I don't want to base a $30K decision on looks alone..

Fibonacci

Did you read the article in Money magizine recently that rated the Toyota Corolla a smarter buy than the Prius. If you only place a premium on mileage alone without looking at the cost of ownership, you're doing yourself a big disservice. My TSX averages approx 33.5 mpg in mostly freeway driving - for the performance and value - it's not strange why Edmunds rates the TSX as the midsize sedan with the lowest cost of ownership - even above the Accord.

BUY THE TSX!!!!!!!!!

TSX 'R' US

Ah....didn't know that was what the tax break was for... Do people claim the repairs to their car if it does break down for the tax break? Or is it just a set amount for hybrids?
What if the repairs cost waaay more than what you get from the tax break? Just a couple more things to think about...

I was thinking more along the lines of reliability when you decide to sell the vehicle. Would the electric system still be in tip top condition when you sell so that you can get as much for it back as you can...instead of taking a big hit cause people don't want to pay huge repair bills for a used hybrid car. (I guess that question would depend on how much the buyer would get from the tax break )

Yeah...definately don't buy a car just for looks...you have to be happy with it with both performance and looks. The Accord sedan has been growing on my since I've been seeing more and more and more and more and more of them on the road... But the twisties pwn me

DEVO

IIRC, the hybrid gets 51city, 48 hwy.

If not, i have real world numbers because I own one and can tell you for certain that you get better gas mileage in city driving.

DEVO

Not true, my hybrid didn't cost more then a comprable civic ex. Add the tax break and I come out equal if not better.

Add the cost of fuel savings and in 2 years I am way ahead of the cost of a comprable car in it's class.

Oh... and I'm NOT a tree hugger.

ric

and when oil rises several hundred percent, we'll all be asking Devo for a ride while we figure out how to turn our TSX's into nifty planters in the backyard.

Conservation of natural resources is moving out of the treehugger realm...............

sauceman

That is actually a statement out of the larger picture.