BluesMama

Hey y'all,

I've been lurking for about a month and now it's come time for me to make a decision. My brother wants to get rid of his car:

2000 BMW 323i (asking price $17,700)
Minor dings, garaged
Titanium Silver
Sports Package
Zenon Lights
Premium Audio
Dinan Cold Filter Intake
Dinan Tips
Chipped for the extra HP
Recently installed OEM battery
52,000 miles and out of warranty
No warranty repair since 45,000 miles (alarm and door locks faulty)
Has had a few electrical problems while under warranty

He's willing to sell it to me for 17 and change (more than fair considering the mods, probably more like a gift) but I'm really wary about it being out of warranty and some of the strange electrical problems it's had in the past. My family would rather I purchase my brother's car but I don't like the idea of getting stuck with what I consider an old car. I know it's going to be more fun to drive his car around but is it worth the risk? Your thoughts...

ianS

Test drive both cars more detail and pick one. After I got the tsx, my wife & I feel my 00 328i (sp+pp) is an inferior car(both are manual). Unless you track your car very often or you always marking very fast turn on corner, you won't benefit too much from a rwd. Also I more than happy that I only need to pay $4000 for an extended warranty on my bimmer but I think I am waste of money to spend $1000 for a 7yr warranty on the tsx.

xizor

Um, why would the car be more fun to drive exactly? Its an underpowered engine, and even with the torque it wouldn't beat a 6MT TSX IMO. And while I'm sure the chip and CAI help, certainly go test out a 6MT TSX and see which is more fun to drive. 50k miles seems like a lot to intherit, I'd much prefer a new car, even w/ the large price difference.

gilboman

how long do you keep plan to keep it? from the mods, the car should be loads of fun to drive. maybe you can buy it from your brother drive it around for a while and then trade it in to acura for a TSX since you got a good deal on it from your brother?

gilboman

driver's race with 6mt TSX. unless a corner comes up then the TSX would get left behind.

fdl

The BMW will be better on the pocket book in that it wont depreciate as much, but you never know about repairs.

I think if you are 100% sure that your brother has taken really really good care of the car, then its worth serious consideration.

The TSX is probably the better car (newer, etc) but will cost you more $$$.

bbbradley

Well, how risky is a ~$10K more debt to you? A new car (actually most any car) is not an investment, a new Acura will depreciate significantly the moment you drive it off the lot, whereas the 3 has already taken the big hit. Personally, as an ex-BMW owner, there is nothing that feels like a BMW. You didn't mention if it was a slushbox or not, that would be the main reason to ditch the bimmer. Also, sedan or coupe? IIRC 2000 was the first year for the E46 coupes. The sport package equipped cars handle very well, and while not a straight line screamer will make up for it in the curves. 50/50 balance is miles ahead of the FWD weight bias too. I see you are in NY, you WILL need 4 snow tires on the 3 series if you do winter driving. It makes an enormous difference on those cars. My 328i was useless on non-snows, but a demon on 4 Blizzaks!!

I am in the early decision period for a support vehicle when I store my Miata for the winter, TSX, WRX, 3-series are all contenders right now. If I could find a good 3 for under $20k, i'd be tempted!
/bill

rottencorpse

i would get a new tsx. imo it sounds like the bimmer is just going to take your $$$$ in maintenance; i mean you already know it has some problems already and it will not get any better....german cars are not too reliable from my experience.

ianS

Also, a bimmer without the sport package is not worth to take a look at it at all. Just try it and see how slick is the 6spM of tsx and how notchy the 5spM of the bimmer and imagine you going to shift it every coupe second when you drive the car, you will know how to choose.

Also, the mod yourbrother put on is nothing really special! CAI worth $300, a exhaust tip! 50hp gain???? chip? it is well known that you not able to chip too much hp from M52 and M54.

gilboman

notice he said it had the sport package? but i agree the 6mt is nice in the TSX, but its the only thing going for it compared to his brother's car.

BluesMama

Alright. Wow. Lots of responses. It is a 5 speed manual tranny and he has treated it like a baby. It's been sitting in my driveway for 2 years because he's been away getting his MBA. So most of the miles were accumulated the first 2 years. I've driven it plenty of times on weekends. The torque is (I'm still a newbie at this terminology) a bit better than the TSX. It does have a handsome growl because of the mods. I know that he's invested 5 grand with those Dinan things. I have no idea what the actual breakdown. It's not exactly bling but better than stock for sure. I have test driven the TSX but the dealer wouldn't let me do much more than drive in 30 MPH zones around the block. No way to push its buttons to see how it responds. I never thought of it as an investment at all! I guess my thinking was that the anticipated costs would probably be much more predictable with the TSX. The BMW is due for maintenance now and I'm pretty sure my brother mentioned it will be over 2 grand for whatever is needed. I've seen some of the bills and they weren't pretty. Luckily covered by the warranty at the time but not while I'll be driving it if I buy it. My current car is a 1996 Nissan Altima. It's been working flawlessly for me. I do tend to keep cars longer than the average which was another reason why I was eye-ing the TSX. Can't ignore Honda reliability. Aside from the well appointed interior of the TSX, I really enjoyed the buttery feel of the stick.

bigwilliestyle

Hey ianS,

Just curious, but what do you mean by $1000 is a waste for the TSX warranty? Sounds decent to me. All it takes is 1 major issue to make it worth it.

xizor

I think he meant its a waste because he doesn't feel like he'd need it, while the BMW definately would

ianS

My family(brothers, sister, in-laws) & I have been driving Honda for the last 15yr(3 Civic, 2 Accord, 2 Integra, 1 Legend, 1 Prelude, 1 CRV and 1 RSX) and we usually keep the car for around 7yr and 100k miles but none of them ever have a single trip for any warranty repair. Since my tsx is the first year production and it seems have a lot of electronic so It took me 3 weeks to think should I get the extended warranty and yes I got 25% discount on it. When I brought the extended warranty on my bimmer I am scare those 4G is going to waste since I am afraid that insurance company will go out of business before I can claim from them! But I already have $700 claim(a new set of control arms and 2 window regulators) in the past 2 months!

gilboman

maybe you should check out some consumer reports when you buy a car next time.

rb1

1. With BMW's (and to some degree VW's), you get a good one or you don't, IMHO. There's nothing wrong with the enginering, just manufacturing issues. If your briother's car has basically been sound, there's no reason it will suddenly fall apart.

2. You can pay for a lot of repairs with the $10,000 more the TSX will cost.

It seems largely a matter of personal taste, but financially speaking the bimmer offers a lot for the buck. Of course, if you really like the TSX a lot more, then you should get it. Sounds like another (and more thorough) test drive is warranted if you are thinking about going the TSX route.

bbbradley

I really hope he has more Dinan stuff than that for $5k! Dinan is a bit overpriced, but I didn't think it was that bad!!

/bill

fdl

I beleive that 2000 3 series had "good" reliability. But it will be pricey when somethign does break, (although probably not 10 grand).

BluesMama

He said he was approx one mod short of getting the lousy decal. There's probably one mod I'm missing in there. But he did it so long ago that I haven't a clue yet. Will have to ask later tonight.

MarkPinTx

Are you fully prepared to experience the omnisuckifiscense that is a German electrical system out of warranty?

TSXforme

I always have a chuckle in my head when many car enthusiasts mention "new" cars and investments in the same sentence...but I digress.

Depending on your debt situation (and tolerance for debt), I would buy the used car and spend the rest on maintenance. As a previous poster mentioned, 10K is a lot of coin to maintain a car with. You are already familiar with the history surrounding your brother's BMW. And because you buy new doesn't necessarily protect you against "problems." But the Honda/Acura stats for lemons is on your side.

ianS

No, not all 10k are put on maintenance! After 5 yr, the bimmer is already a 9yr car and how much value left on it? compare to a 5yr old tsx? With my experience with E36, it average to spend $2k/year to keep it running after yr 5 of ownership. Also count your time on bring it to shop and lost of transportation too.

Also, if your salesman not allow to drive the tsx above 30mph then go to another dealer and test drive it again. Make sure you rev it all the way up to redline before shifting!

bbbradley

What BMW did you own, and what were the repairs that averaged $2k/year? Sounds like you got a bad car, and like someone else mentioned BMWs tend to have a higher standard deviation in repair costs. Goods ones are great, bad ones are worse!
I test drove MINI when they first came out, the sales guy would only allow a supervised drive on a pre-defined route, and would not even let me pull out of the parking lot onto the road because "with a manual, merging into high speed traffic can be difficult." My test drive left me not knowing if MINIs can make left turns. Leave the parking lot, turn right, turn right, turn right, turn right, turn right back into the parking lot. Wheeeee........... To hell with redline, find the rev limiter! It's there for a reason!

/bill

TSXforme

I agree...$2K/year in repairs does sound a lot on the high side.

gt0279a

Check out Edmunds.com and research the '00 323i and '04 TSX. Check out the "True Cost to Own" section for each car.

It breaks down all the costs of the car, including fuel, repairs, depreciation, etc.

BluesMama

So I guess I'm hearing, the Bimmer could be a better buy as long as it behaves. Oh but that TSX is so puuuuuuurty. Hmm. I've done a lot of research on Edmunds. I'm going to have to sleep on this yet another night. Thanks for the opinions folks. I appreciate it!

pantji

Dear friend, do yourself a favor and get the TSX 6MT.

I have test driven 2000 3 Series (328, Sports pkg, stick), G35 (2004, sports pkg, 6MT) and TSX 6MT. In my objective opinion the drivetrain and the tranny in TSX is way superior than the two RWD cars. The 4 Cylinder works more like a 6. It's shifter is way more refined than the Infiniti. If you switch to 5AT model on TSX, however, its a different car (feel, drivability, sportiness) altogether.

Please go drive your Bimmer to Acura and test the 6MT back to back, I am sure you will see the difference in refinement. Old scool will still tell you abt the RWD /FWD; but it is not that noticable in TSX 6MT....

SPUDMTN

Well...just an idea...but...here it goes.

You're saving a BUNCH of money on the BMW. Although you're taking a risk with reliability, can't you go out and buy an extended warranty for the 3-series? Is the car out of warranty yet (I think you've already mentioned this, but I don't remember). If you get the 3, it would be worth the few extra dollars to get an extended warranty. 3-series are great handling cars...pretty much the ultimate. And you're getting one amazing deal on a 3er.

Best of luck on your purchase...whatever you buy you'll be happy with, I'm sure. The TSX is an amazing vehicle and a lot of fun. As to whether it's worth the extra money is up to you to decide. I've found that I prefer pre-owned vehicles. You take far less of a hit on depreciation and can find a car that is as good as new.

Let us know what you end up with. And post pictures, too

MarkPinTx

If you were taking ordinary chances with reliability, I guess I'd say go for it.

However, you said the warranty repairs already "weren't pretty" and that electrical components have already failed. Unless you want to spend a lot of time (much less money) in the shop, I'm thinkin you're better off with the TSX.

An out of warranty German car can get really $$ to repair, especially if it already demonstrates electrical problems, which this one seems to do (must have been built during Oktoberfest).

Good luck,

Micah476

There's no way in hell I'd buy a car with a history of electrical problems...those things are unpredictable, infuriating, and possibly VERY expensive.

majormojo

I think the fact that you think the BMW might be "a risk" gives you your answer. If having to lay out a few grand for repairs now and then would put a kink in your budget, then run away from it and buy the TSX. BMWs are great cars with many excellent qualities but "cheap to maintain" just isn't one of them.

biker

although the G35 is way faster.

bob shiftright

If it were MY brother's old BMW, I wouldn't touch it with a pair of tweezers!



The points about the electrical systems of Eurocars (not just German cars) are valid. The Europeans may still be good making the metal pieces but they're nowhere near the Japanese when it comes to making electrical components. I'd only buy a BMW (or any Eurocar) new, and I'd also spring for the extended warranty. Also, for just a few bucks more than he's asking for the Bimmer you could buy a brand new Accord, and spend your spare time with your girlfriend instead of exorcising electrical poltergeists.

(BTW, I still belong to BMWCCA, I still love the cars, but I need reliability!)

ianS

It was my borther's 94 325i. Here are some of the replaced item... n set of control arms, ECU, radiator leaking, n set of window regulators, sunroof rack, motor, switch, power lock modular, powerseat modular, oxygen sensor, tempature guage, aux fan, console indicator controller.... an the list goes on.... and his car is not any worst than an average E36, since all are common problems on a 3-series and they keep this on to E46 as well... and my E46 also has popout gear, grinding, rpm suddendly go up & down when idling and something even stall. It is all common issues! already get used to it.... when you go to bmw formus you will able to find it out and they will tell you that it is the experience of owning a bmw, it is the status!

After blasting bmw for its reliability but it is very good on against aging. Once you take care of it and willing spend money on it, it will still run like new even after 9yr. I dun think MB, Audi, Volvo are able to touch that.

MarkPinTx

Like Archie Bunker said, you get the Japs to do that electronic stuff. Not a bunch of krauts like Haldeman, Ehrlichmann, etc.

A friend had a 320i back in the day. Don't remember the year. It had a SOLDERED wiring harness. Although I am quite sure BMW/Bosch has moved on to connectors, it's a representative thought.

bbbradley

Strange, I had an E36 that I sold @ 50k miles and had virtually zero problems; one was due to a faulty synchro, which they replaced under warranty. The RPM dip you mention sounds like the same CAS issue the E36 had, simple software upgrade took care of it. That is not to say the E36s aren't without their problems.

I truly wish there were more RWD options out there. FWD = WWD!

/bill

BluesMama

Apparently, I can get an extended warranty only while the original warranty is still in effect. Once the original warranty has expired, the vehicle no longer qualifies. The original warranty ran out a few thousand miles ago so I'm out of luck with that one. I hope I can get another TSX test drive in today.