MUST READ for Oil Consumption/Engine Break-In
#1
MUST READ for Oil Consumption/Engine Break-In
This is from an engineer. He knows a great deal about these issues so I thought I would post some info on the subject.
Some oil consumption is of absolutely no concern to me, personally. Niether is it a concern to the engineers that design and develop them. Mostly it is just an inconvenience (having to add oil occasionally). Only car owners seem to be upset by oil consumption.
I think most people's analysis of "why engines burn oil" is based on the (false) idea that an engine shouldn't burn ANY oil and if it does burn some oil then something "must" be wrong and they invent all sorts of logic to explain why it happened. Most all of it is nonsense.
I wouldn't worry in the least about your oil consumption. Occasionaly use of full throttle and high RPM is the easy, simple and fun way to eliminate deposits and keep the combustion chambers clean.
Most high output engines will always use some amount of oil as keeping the top rings lubricated at high loads and high RPM is impossible without loosing some oil past the rings. Plus, multivalve engines need to keep all those valve guides/stems lubricated and that is only accomplished with "total loss" oiling.
I doubt seriously that breakin or anything else would have affected the oil consumption. Provide a dose of high RPM WOT accelerations as often as practical to keep the chambers clean and the rings moving and free on the pistons.
Many engines have very aggressive cylinder wall finishes to maintain oil on the cylinder walls to keep the rings lubricated at high specific power levels. This often leads to high oil consumption and variable oil consumption from engine to engine. None of them are "good" or "bad" ..... just some of them use more oil than others. Who cares....??? It doesn't mean anything bad at all.
If the engine is not smoking I would say that the oil consumption (no matter how high it is) is fine and that nothing is wrong. If the engine suddenly starts to smoke and use oil then something obviously changed or failed but low levels of oil consumption are perfectly accecptable.
BMW had such high oil consumption on some of their M engines that they caution to check the oil at EVERY fillup on the autobahn type driving as the engine can run low on oil in a slightly longer interval. They actually replaced engines that failed from oil starvation due to the high rate of oil consumption that was "normal" due to the aggresive cylinder wall finish and low tension ring pack.
I think most of the hysteria over oil consumption comes from "internet experts". Don't worry about it at all.
The fits and finishes in most production engines these days means "breakin" is pretty much a non issue. I have seen many engines torn down that were broken in in different ways from full throttle operation instantly to gentle driving to no particular breakin at all. They all look fine.
The one thing you usually want to avoid immediately with a new, high performanc engine is revving it to the redline and holding it there. The oil filter will almost always be bypassing to some extent at the oil flow at high RPM and any debris generated during breakin will bypass the filter and end up in the bearings. If the cylinder walls are a cast iron material (either a cast iron block or inserted aluminum block) this means that the cast iron scraped off the cylinder walls during the first few minutes of operation needs to be trapped by the oil filter. Cast iron in the bearings is not good. The high RPM would not hurt the cylinder walls at all but the debris needs to be caught by the filter. That is why all the filter arguements on the internet are so funny. The singular most important time for an effective oil filter is the first few minutes of operation....when the OEM filter is on there. Putting a "better" filter on after the breakin debris has been caught is pointless, basically.
Usually a cycle of varying RPM and varying load will be the best breakin for rapic results. Like hold the car in a gear and vary in the throttle opening to change load on the engine rhythmetically without letting the engine go to high RPM. Cruise in 2nd, for instance, at about 3000 RPM and vary the throttle opening from coast to full throttle back to coast not allowing the engine to go over 4000 for instance. Do this a number of times and then start raising the RPM band slightly. You need cylinder pressure to load the rings to really break in the cylinder walls so the use of full throttle is fine yet you want to keep the RPM down a bit to keep the oil filter in play 100%.
Regarding oil consumption and engine life.... Usually an engine that is designed to use some oil from the beginning will last much longer. I have seen engines that regularily use a quart of oil every 3000 miles that are almost perfect inside when they are pulled down at 100K. The original cylinder honing pattern will still be in the cylinders and there will be no ridge on the cylinder wall.
I think most people's analysis of "why engines burn oil" is based on the (false) idea that an engine shouldn't burn ANY oil and if it does burn some oil then something "must" be wrong and they invent all sorts of logic to explain why it happened. Most all of it is nonsense.
I wouldn't worry in the least about your oil consumption. Occasionaly use of full throttle and high RPM is the easy, simple and fun way to eliminate deposits and keep the combustion chambers clean.
Most high output engines will always use some amount of oil as keeping the top rings lubricated at high loads and high RPM is impossible without loosing some oil past the rings. Plus, multivalve engines need to keep all those valve guides/stems lubricated and that is only accomplished with "total loss" oiling.
I doubt seriously that breakin or anything else would have affected the oil consumption. Provide a dose of high RPM WOT accelerations as often as practical to keep the chambers clean and the rings moving and free on the pistons.
Many engines have very aggressive cylinder wall finishes to maintain oil on the cylinder walls to keep the rings lubricated at high specific power levels. This often leads to high oil consumption and variable oil consumption from engine to engine. None of them are "good" or "bad" ..... just some of them use more oil than others. Who cares....??? It doesn't mean anything bad at all.
If the engine is not smoking I would say that the oil consumption (no matter how high it is) is fine and that nothing is wrong. If the engine suddenly starts to smoke and use oil then something obviously changed or failed but low levels of oil consumption are perfectly accecptable.
BMW had such high oil consumption on some of their M engines that they caution to check the oil at EVERY fillup on the autobahn type driving as the engine can run low on oil in a slightly longer interval. They actually replaced engines that failed from oil starvation due to the high rate of oil consumption that was "normal" due to the aggresive cylinder wall finish and low tension ring pack.
I think most of the hysteria over oil consumption comes from "internet experts". Don't worry about it at all.
The fits and finishes in most production engines these days means "breakin" is pretty much a non issue. I have seen many engines torn down that were broken in in different ways from full throttle operation instantly to gentle driving to no particular breakin at all. They all look fine.
The one thing you usually want to avoid immediately with a new, high performanc engine is revving it to the redline and holding it there. The oil filter will almost always be bypassing to some extent at the oil flow at high RPM and any debris generated during breakin will bypass the filter and end up in the bearings. If the cylinder walls are a cast iron material (either a cast iron block or inserted aluminum block) this means that the cast iron scraped off the cylinder walls during the first few minutes of operation needs to be trapped by the oil filter. Cast iron in the bearings is not good. The high RPM would not hurt the cylinder walls at all but the debris needs to be caught by the filter. That is why all the filter arguements on the internet are so funny. The singular most important time for an effective oil filter is the first few minutes of operation....when the OEM filter is on there. Putting a "better" filter on after the breakin debris has been caught is pointless, basically.
Usually a cycle of varying RPM and varying load will be the best breakin for rapic results. Like hold the car in a gear and vary in the throttle opening to change load on the engine rhythmetically without letting the engine go to high RPM. Cruise in 2nd, for instance, at about 3000 RPM and vary the throttle opening from coast to full throttle back to coast not allowing the engine to go over 4000 for instance. Do this a number of times and then start raising the RPM band slightly. You need cylinder pressure to load the rings to really break in the cylinder walls so the use of full throttle is fine yet you want to keep the RPM down a bit to keep the oil filter in play 100%.
Regarding oil consumption and engine life.... Usually an engine that is designed to use some oil from the beginning will last much longer. I have seen engines that regularily use a quart of oil every 3000 miles that are almost perfect inside when they are pulled down at 100K. The original cylinder honing pattern will still be in the cylinders and there will be no ridge on the cylinder wall.
#5
Driver/Detailer
Interesting read.
My 2 cents.
But..... if Acura/Honda agreed to replace engines due to oil starvation, then I wouldn't have a problem with oil consumption. Since they don't, then oil consumption is a problem. Also, the article states that almost all of the M engines from BMW have oil consumption. For the TSX, the majority of them have no problem with oil consumption, just a few. Since the majority of TSX's are fine, that points to the minority that are experiencing oil consumption as to having a problem.
My 2 cents.
But..... if Acura/Honda agreed to replace engines due to oil starvation, then I wouldn't have a problem with oil consumption. Since they don't, then oil consumption is a problem. Also, the article states that almost all of the M engines from BMW have oil consumption. For the TSX, the majority of them have no problem with oil consumption, just a few. Since the majority of TSX's are fine, that points to the minority that are experiencing oil consumption as to having a problem.
#6
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Not necessarily. My engine consumes 1L/1000km, and I swear the engine still performs as well as ever. As powerful, as fuel efficient. If it had some issues, I see or feel the end result of it.
#7
Obviously some oil consumption can be excessive and a problem. But topping up over a 10k mile drain with a quart or two is not bad at all and probably more beneficial. I think that was his point.
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#9
Interesting read but rather absolute in his opinions. Is there a reason it's not signed or his expertise is referenced?
One question that I would bring up and doesn't make too much sense to me is why do some TSX engines "burn" a fair amount of oil and others not a drop when "he" said break-in style really doesn't make that much difference? Does that only leave driving style as the most likely reason? Honda does know how to make a high output 4-Cyl engine that can last a very long time. Just asking...
One question that I would bring up and doesn't make too much sense to me is why do some TSX engines "burn" a fair amount of oil and others not a drop when "he" said break-in style really doesn't make that much difference? Does that only leave driving style as the most likely reason? Honda does know how to make a high output 4-Cyl engine that can last a very long time. Just asking...
#10
Interesting read.
Funny that he mentions internet experts given where his apparently informed opinion has ended up. Also says break-in style doesn't matter but then says how to break an engine in.
The guy may well be right and I'm not in a position to question his knowledge, just noticed those couple things.
Funny that he mentions internet experts given where his apparently informed opinion has ended up. Also says break-in style doesn't matter but then says how to break an engine in.
The guy may well be right and I'm not in a position to question his knowledge, just noticed those couple things.
#11
Moderator
I know Honda2.4 from another forum, and I do know the guy who wrote the e-mail to Honda2.4. The person who wrote the article is an engineer for General Motors, and his specialty is designing those Cadillac Northstar oil burners.
Btw, Cadillac did switch to a less aggressive cylinder wall finish in the last few years to reduce some of the oil consumption, to about 1 qt ever 6-7K.
Btw, Cadillac did switch to a less aggressive cylinder wall finish in the last few years to reduce some of the oil consumption, to about 1 qt ever 6-7K.
#12
Originally Posted by scheißterhöffer
Interesting read.
Funny that he mentions internet experts given where his apparently informed opinion has ended up. Also says break-in style doesn't matter but then says how to break an engine in.
The guy may well be right and I'm not in a position to question his knowledge, just noticed those couple things.
Funny that he mentions internet experts given where his apparently informed opinion has ended up. Also says break-in style doesn't matter but then says how to break an engine in.
The guy may well be right and I'm not in a position to question his knowledge, just noticed those couple things.
One would think that when someone is telling you how wrong you are to the degree that your opinions are laughable, they would at least have the curticy to not base their agrument on a foundation of in congruencies. In other words he was starting to tick me off too.
#13
Originally Posted by Michael Wan
I know Honda2.4 from another forum, and I do know the guy who wrote the e-mail to Honda2.4. The person who wrote the article is an engineer for General Motors, and his specialty is designing those Cadillac Northstar oil burners.
Btw, Cadillac did switch to a less aggressive cylinder wall finish in the last few years to reduce some of the oil consumption, to about 1 qt ever 6-7K.
Btw, Cadillac did switch to a less aggressive cylinder wall finish in the last few years to reduce some of the oil consumption, to about 1 qt ever 6-7K.
Now THAT'S FUNNY!!!
Maybe the guy also has stock in an big oil company. I remember a friend of mine being told when he asked "what kind of oil should I use?" the mechanic said, "In your case it really doesn't matter, it won't be in there long." I don't recall what kind of big iron smoker he drove. But just maybe...
#14
Moderator
Just noticed a typo in my previous post.
I don't think he has any personal agenda w/oil. I know he's a big proponent of reducing oil usage when its unnecessary, so highly doubt he would promote excessive usage of oil.
One thing I have learned from him is that many of us perform preventive maintenance much more frequently than needed...when we're gaining little or no benefits and are actually wasting our $$$.
For instance, he suggests changing the oil only when the Oil Life Monitor recommends a change, but to keep the oil level full at all times. In addition, he says to only change the ATF when recommended, and if there's no recommended interval, he recommended waiting until about 100K due to the longer service life of the newer fluids.
I don't think he has any personal agenda w/oil. I know he's a big proponent of reducing oil usage when its unnecessary, so highly doubt he would promote excessive usage of oil.
One thing I have learned from him is that many of us perform preventive maintenance much more frequently than needed...when we're gaining little or no benefits and are actually wasting our $$$.
For instance, he suggests changing the oil only when the Oil Life Monitor recommends a change, but to keep the oil level full at all times. In addition, he says to only change the ATF when recommended, and if there's no recommended interval, he recommended waiting until about 100K due to the longer service life of the newer fluids.
#15
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Originally Posted by Michael Wan
Just noticed a typo in my previous post.
I don't think he has any personal agenda w/oil. I know he's a big proponent of reducing oil usage when its unnecessary, so highly doubt he would promote excessive usage of oil.
One thing I have learned from him is that many of us perform preventive maintenance much more frequently than needed...when we're gaining little or no benefits and are actually wasting our $$$.
For instance, he suggests changing the oil only when the Oil Life Monitor recommends a change, but to keep the oil level full at all times. In addition, he says to only change the ATF when recommended, and if there's no recommended interval, he recommended waiting until about 100K due to the longer service life of the newer fluids.
I don't think he has any personal agenda w/oil. I know he's a big proponent of reducing oil usage when its unnecessary, so highly doubt he would promote excessive usage of oil.
One thing I have learned from him is that many of us perform preventive maintenance much more frequently than needed...when we're gaining little or no benefits and are actually wasting our $$$.
For instance, he suggests changing the oil only when the Oil Life Monitor recommends a change, but to keep the oil level full at all times. In addition, he says to only change the ATF when recommended, and if there's no recommended interval, he recommended waiting until about 100K due to the longer service life of the newer fluids.
BUT, the main thing I take aways from these discussions is confusion. Newer fluids, older fluids, shorter intervals, longer intervals, dino oil, synthetic oil. It seems to me we just go round and round on this topic without ever coming to a firm consensus.
So, while I appreciate all the available info, I take it all with a grain of salt. I think everyone has to decide for themselves which type of preventative maintenance intervals they're comfortable with, and which types of fluids they'll use. Me, I error on the side of caution, and, if it costs me a few more bucks in the long run, then so be it. That's the price of peace of mind.
All of the above is just my
#16
Still Lovin my 06
Originally Posted by waTSX
Threads like these are always interesting reads, and I've learned a lot from them over the years. Michael, your information always strikes me as sound.
BUT, the main thing I take aways from these discussions is confusion. Newer fluids, older fluids, shorter intervals, longer intervals, dino oil, synthetic oil. It seems to me we just go round and round on this topic without ever coming to a firm consensus.
So, while I appreciate all the available info, I take it all with a grain of salt. I think everyone has to decide for themselves which type of preventative maintenance intervals they're comfortable with, and which types of fluids they'll use. Me, I error on the side of caution, and, if it costs me a few more bucks in the long run, then so be it. That's the price of peace of mind.
All of the above is just my
BUT, the main thing I take aways from these discussions is confusion. Newer fluids, older fluids, shorter intervals, longer intervals, dino oil, synthetic oil. It seems to me we just go round and round on this topic without ever coming to a firm consensus.
So, while I appreciate all the available info, I take it all with a grain of salt. I think everyone has to decide for themselves which type of preventative maintenance intervals they're comfortable with, and which types of fluids they'll use. Me, I error on the side of caution, and, if it costs me a few more bucks in the long run, then so be it. That's the price of peace of mind.
All of the above is just my
i agree, like my mechanic, is probably too cautious, and he thinks waiting 3,000 miles to change oil is too much.
#17
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Originally Posted by bradykp
i agree, like my mechanic, is probably too cautious, and he thinks waiting 3,000 miles to change oil is too much.
#18
Still Lovin my 06
Originally Posted by jpt
I think it's more likely that he thinks you waiting 3k miles to pay him to change your oil is too much
#19
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Originally Posted by bradykp
i agree, like my mechanic, is probably too cautious, and he thinks waiting 3,000 miles to change oil is too much.
#20
Moderator
BUT, the main thing I take aways from these discussions is confusion. Newer fluids, older fluids, shorter intervals, longer intervals, dino oil, synthetic oil. It seems to me we just go round and round on this topic without ever coming to a firm consensus.
#22
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Originally Posted by Michael Wan
I'm going to make up my mind one of these days and post a "FAQ" thread about this stuff.
#24
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Originally Posted by bradykp
i plan on changing at 4,000 mile intervals. when do you change?
On my other/past cars, I have followed the owners manual recommendations -- and none of them said 3k. On my old 1995 Civic, I started going the recommend 7.5k miles once I switched to synthetic (before that I went conservative and did 5-6k miles).
#25
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Please keep in mind that an engineer like a lawyer, doctor or accountant is a PROFESSIONAL. They get paid not only for their work but more importantly for their opinion on how the work is to be done. Their "opinion" is what counts. Remember then that its an opinion. I bet you could talk to a number of engineers and they'll give you different rationales and have different expectations for a given question that they're pondering. This guy is being reserved in his opinion, I can tell becasue he doesn't use numbers....he never defined what "some oil consumption" is. Is it 1L/1000km or 1L/5000km?
A great read none the less.
A great read none the less.
#26
Originally Posted by Ellas9
A great read none the less.
Ultimately, (as some one said) it's up to the consumer to decide how cautious or lax they want to be on their car maintenance.
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