ClutchPerformer

Was it? If so, I didn't catch it.

Dan Martin

An alternator is strictly an output device. It has no idea how much energy you are using. It simply spins along with the engine pumping out electricity regardless of if anything is using or not. You can buy bigger alternators to generate more power but they in turn will use more of the engine's power.

Dan Martin

http://www.vtr.org/maintain/alternator-overview.html

biker

The sales of the TSX maybe higher than Honda expected but again unless it's worth it for them to build and import these things they'll pull the plug, which would be a shame becasue it's a great car and the folks that got hooked to them will be very disappointed (including many of this board). It has been tried many of times before (anyone remember the Ford Capri - first the German one from the 70s (had one) then the Australian version of the 90s, Cadillac Catera, etc.). They were niche cars whose life was extinguished after one model version run. Who wants to take bets that when the Euro/JDM version of the Accord gets redesigned in 3-4 years there'll be no TSX to go along with it? Now if the sales start approaching that of the TL then things could be different, lets hope so. Or to save costs Honda does away with different versions and builds one Accord wordwide. Would then the Acura version be called a TL or TSX?
Like I said in my previous post, the extra current drawn from the alternator to power things like SMG, radio, heated seats, etc puts a very slight extra load on the engine. Think about it, do you think you could spin the shaft of the alternator and feel no difference between lighting the dash clock (1W) and powering the headlights (100W)? Relative to overall engine power and 0-60 times it makes virtually no difference but it does take power away from the engine when you turn on anything electric. Although not as dramatic a power sapper, it's like the AC. When you use it it takes power from the engine.
While slightly off topic I thought of another analogy to the AT vs. MT issue and other things in the typical car today. Would you pay extra, or even want to have a dedicated button with channel 11 on your TV remote? How about channel 12 (rain sensing wipers)? How about channel 13 (Daytime running lights)? How about channel 14 (Adaptive cruise control)? How about channel 15 (Parc Distance Control)? (feel free to add any channel analogous to a gadget here) We are getting in the car industry to the point of diminishing returns. The cars are so good that to dfifferentiate cars, manufacturers must turn to more and more gadgets to lure buyers. I can change gears, turn on/off the wipers/headlights, use the gas pedal (or regular cruise) and judge the distance to the car behind me when parking all by myself thank you. I don't need/want the extra cost/weight/complexity/trouble potential that all of that stuff brings.

larchmont

So, Clutch was right -- You were totally serious!!

If the company is selling basically all the cars they put out, and selling them pretty fast, and the sales numbers are exceeding the target numbers..... why would you even be thinking this, much less presuming it?

biker

The numbers at this point don't tell the whole story. Let's see what the numbers are two years from now when Honda will have to decide whether to keep it. I hope that I'm wrong. Besidfes engineering Honda is great at just in time manufacturing and not having acres of unwanted cars. It will be interesting to see what happens once the new TL is in the showroom next to the TSX and available under MSRP.

larchmont

I still can't believe it. Sure, anything's possible -- but why would you be thinking this about a car that is making such a successful start????

Soze75

Without reading anything since my last contribution, I'll say HOLY SHIT!! I've got some reading to do. schalolil scared me away with his intense will to not give in or even sympathise with my manual brethren.

To your cars my brothers!!!
Rev high and let everyone know that you're a MannyMan!!!

insert - *the man show chant* "Uga...!?" however it goes.

biker

Larch,
Sorry about the pessimistic view. Like I mentioned many times I hope I'm wrong. I only base my assertion on history. The longevity of the model doesn't matter to me (like I said I had a '74 Capri V6) - maybe I threw it out there to stir the pot. Anyway, the TSX seems to fit the bill for me once I decide that the extra $15K to get a 530 is not worth it (I'd like to have a RWD car). Besides I already have 4 Hondas in the family so the familiarity alone will give the TSX a leg up assuming the MT will be available.

larchmont

I don't think any of us mind pessimistic views, it's just that it's hard to understand what would give you this pessimistic view. But it's all good.

schalliol

That's kind of the point of luxury brands, Acura being a fairly sporty version of that. ("but what about the NSX?" They could have made a Viper.)

Ok, thanks Soze: let's get back on topic of AT / MT now. A lot of posts have been made on the topic and I think about every topic has been covered. It seems that MT enthusiasts are somewhat split (not sure %/%) on whether they'd prefer a wonderful SMG (lets say better than BMW's SMG II) or conventional manual in the future, but I would say we're in agreement that someone really into driving needs to have something at least like the TSX's sport shift.

As such, I imagine that there will be 3 main transmisisons available in 5-7 years, the conventional manual, SMG w/ auto shifting mode and full auto only. I would expect that entry level car will primarily ship with full autos, with the exception of a few sporty entry level cars that will have conventional manuals. I then expect the most autos in the $25k plus range will be replaced SMGs that have full auto modes and offer increased performance over conventional manuals (what I want), and then you'll have conventional manuals targeted at the purists, but I believe that the SMG with full auto mode will far and away have the most market share in these segments because it gives the ability to go full auto and allows people to switch gears in a somewhat similar relation to their old MTs.

Eventually we may not have cars that really use the same engine system (alt. fuel) and more will be like the current CVTs and not have gears. That will mess with the equations, so I'm holding that stuff back for now.

Soze75

when I read that future BMW M models will not have manuals, I was saddened yet accepting that this is the direction of the future. I'll enjoy my time now while it lasts.

- schalliol - My opinion on SMGs is biased due to the fact I've never tried one. I'm sure if I did have the pleasure, I'd probably love them. My resistance stems from years of such a transmission never being available. With the paddle shift controls, you could still rev the crap out of it, while enjoying what Juan, Michael, Ralf, Ruebens and the rest of 'em use to drive like never before. It would probably help me relax as well such is my crazy need to shift seamlessly and smoothly. That's probably what I like most about the MT - it makes me feel unique and gives me a challenge daily. It feeds my battered ego and promotes the BS that "I could have been a pro driver", or "damn, I'm good", knowing full well that I'm nothing special in regards to driving at the limit.
Heel and toe? Understeer? Oversteer? Steering with the throttle? I'm still at a level where taking a corner with my foot on the throttle seems badass and fun. I'm a wannabee, and the MT feeds my wannabeeist tendencies.

schalliol

A great quote and fun to read, thanks! None of us can predict the future with 100% certainty, or know how we'll like something we haven't tried fully, but this seems like the type of response I was expecting a number (note: not all!) of MT drivers might have. It'll be an interesting several years!

fdl

OK cool, so then we can all agree than using more electrical power..be it a SMG or CD player..wont affect the cars performance in any way.

mrdoug

Thanks for all the further info this weekend, everyone. You're all pretty much out of my league now, a.k.a., I'm no expert. I just have always enjoyed driving MTs every since I worked as a "jammer" at Glacier National Park in Montana one summer (1980), driving tourists in my 1936 White Motor Co. red bus via 3 speed manual over the Going-To-The-Sun highway every day, which was NO easy feat, believe me (if you've ever been on that road you know what I'm talking about)! A few years after I did that, they ripped out the MTs and replaced them with ATs, which was a sober and sorry "passing of an era" day in Montana! I couldn't help it, but when I returned with my wife in 1990 and saw the same buses with ATs, I had a lot less respect for the new crop of "jammers." (Btw, the name "jammers" originated with the jamming of the gears that regularly occurred, especially with the original MTs, on which the driver had to double clutch to change gears! I'd love to hear from someone old enough to remember THOSE days!! They would be the REAL purists, I suppose!)

mrdoug

And I should have added, we had those huge steering wheels (non power, non power assist) as well as a microphone sticking in our face so we could describe the sites and history while we drove! Almost everyone had at least one or a few "scrapes" of their fender against either the sheer rock cliff and/or with an oncoming RV, another jammer, or even sometimes a car. I think I had one momentary brush with the rock wall once, so I fared better than many. A few of my "colleagues" had entire fenders ripped up or ripped right off. Needless to say, the lanes weren't very wide. The road was built by Swiss engineers in the '30's I believe, and it would be the ultimate way to test this whole MT vs. AT issue. My guess is that on that road, a good MT driver would beat an automatic every time, largely due to the superior ability to downshift into curves (particularly going downhill) without hitting the brakes. Anyone been there? Well, obviously, I'm reminiscing my ass off - hope you'll all forgive!

mrdoug

Last post about my reminiscence (a word?) (I think): I had learned to drive an MT specifically in order to get that job, as it was a requirement since all the buses were MTs. I learned by getting trained as a school bus driver in Ithaca NY while attending my senior year at Cornell. Driving a full size school bus with a MT up down and around the (very steep) hills of Ithaca was a challenge as well, particularly during training having to stop the bus halfway up a very steep hill (not that different from some of SF's steeper hills), parallel park, and then pull into traffic from a standing start. I stalled that sucker out like 10 straight times once, it was hilarious, but once I got the hang, it's never left me (like the proverbial "riding a bike"). So that was a great feeling of accomplishment that I never would have experienced with an AT. Thus, a window into my deep-seated passion for the subject! Any other interesting "getting to learn" stories out there? I'm sure there are some entertaining ones!

larchmont

So YOU were that guy?

(Just kidding about that.)

Hiya, C71 here -- Just got done saying hi to a Cornell connection over here:

http://www.acura-tsx.com/forums/show...=&postid=47414

Maybe we really do need a Cornell alum thread! But, as I've said, maybe then somebody else'll start a Penn State thread or something like that and we'll be literally buried.

dnb

Wow.

Reminds me of the time I rented a K-car from Rent-A-Wreck in downtown Ithaca. Poor beat-up car didn't have enough power to go up the hill. To get to campus I had to drive the long and less steep way via Rt. 13.

schalliol

This calls to mind a trip I had in Canada with Brewster's Athabasca Glacier Snocoach...that's gotta be some durable transmission:

I just got to ride that one, but, whoa.

majormojo

I dare you to post that photo on a "will these wheels fit?" thread. :P

schalliol

I think I've strayed off topic long enough

It does bring me to the point that big vehicles have more gears typically, like a 7-speed conventional manual (i haven't seen one in a car yet). Obviously with heavy loads and big grades you need lots of gears.

larchmont

In my pre-car days, a friend and I hitched a ride to the Cornell golf course -- but the guy had to let us out on one of those hills, because his poor beat-up car couldn't make it up the hill with all of us (and our clubs).

It does rival SF, or anywhere else.

mrdoug

I have also (twice, 15 years apart) ridden in those coaches on the Athabasca glacier at the Columbian Ice Fields up around Jasper Nat'l Park in Canada. The one you provided a picture of is the more recent, more modern version. The first time I was on the glacier, the rigs were considerably more rudimentary. The whole experience was very impressive and memorable. However, driving the jammer bus in Glacier Nat'l Park in Montana over the Going-To-The-Sun road was an awesome challenge, particularly having to prevent the thing from running away on you going downhill (steep) into hairpin turns by downshifting smoothly with a thousand foot drop on one side, a sheer cliff-face on the other side, and some moron in a RV headed toward you and crossing the center line! And you HAD to downshift in a timely manner, because it was not the kind of thing you wanted to rely on the brakes for. By the way, if any of you are old movie buffs, a little known fact is that Gary Cooper was one of the original jammers at Glacier in the '30's, I believe, obviously before he moved on to "bigger and better" things in Hollywood!

ks112

i think girls that can drive stick are sexy as hell. nothing beats a pretty girl driving a manual precdia or jeep or of course a tsx.

biker

Hey, how did Larch end up with 0 posts?

ClutchPerformer

Banned.

biker

I thought he just left like Crazytree. I'm pretty sure he still had a post count recently. Maybe the server/software upgrade zeroed out his post number.

Dan Martin

No his post count was killed about a month ago just to give everyone a bump in the standings.

ClutchPerformer

I thought Crazytree was banned, too...

Dan Martin

Banned people don't automatically have their posts reset to 0. You have to do that separately.

biker

Now I remember. Some PWs moving up in the rankings wanted to move up faster by getting rid of the posts by folks who don't post here anymore.

provench

Nope ... nothing general ... just something done special for larch.