scl23

This is not for those who are already masters of shifting, but if you are, let me know if I'm wrong.

I recently read a post by someone who was explaining how to correctly downshift using a little tap on gas to increase engine rmp DURING downshifting so that you're not riding the clutch down and you increase the engine rpm to match the lower gear. I was thinking about it and was watching the needle on the meter and noticed that the rpm difference was pretty standard across the band. They were roughly.

1 - 2: 800 difference
2 - 3: 700 difference
3 - 4: 500 difference
4 - 5: 500 difference
5 - 6: 500 difference

Upshifting: I noticed that when you shift, if you let up on gas, wait a split second while the rpm maxs out to use up the remaining gas and just starts to top out, AND THEN push the clutch in, shift fast, and let down the clutch HARD in one fast smooth motion, you can shift with virtually ZERO clutch wear and no noticeable jerk at all. I think it's called rev-matching and I'm sure the pros know it but I think too many of us newbies ride the clutch while shifting to try to smooth the shift without knowing that we are wearing down the clutch by pressing on the gas while shifting and letting out the clutch too slowly.

Downshifting: The way the post I read described it, he said to push in the clutch, go to neutral, let out the clutch a little and give it a little gas, and then downshift and let out the clutch. I've been practicing it and think I have it down but am still wondering if the pros do it all the way from 4/5/6 gear all the way down to the 2nd gear or if they just do it one or two gears. I find that I come up to the car in front of me waaaay before I can shift down to gear 2.

slats

I rarely downshift every gear when slowing down -- usually just one or two.

Rev-matching is simple: when the clutch is in and you are downshifting, simply blip the throttle before releasing the clutch.

Double-clutching is more complicated:

push in clutch
shift to nuetral
let out clutch
blip throttle
push in clutch
shift into gear
let out clutch

Sounds really complicated but with some practice can be done in about a second. And if you get it right, it is seamless.



Slats

sauceman

Good post, it's all about right.

Just remember though, your RPM discrepancy will give a rough idea, but vary depending on which RPM you're shifting from. The higher RPM you shift from, the wider the gap between the gears.

g35doc

Can someone explain what instances one would revmatch, double clutch, and heel/toe?

jlukja

heel/toe is an advanced shifting technique whereby you use the heel and toe of you right foot on both the brake and accelerator leaving your left foot to work the clutch full time.

rev matching is used to make smoother downshifts where you blip the throttle to bring up the revs to where they would be in the next lower gear while you have the clutch engaged.

I never double clutched so I'll leave that one to others.

scl23

http://www.epinions.com/auto-review-...3A351631-prod4

complicated and probably not worth it with today's techonology.

scheißterhöffer

This recent similar thread (6MT Driving Tips) references this TL thread (Learning a 6 speed...) that contains the following post:

SouthernBoy is describing double clutching. What I do not understand between rev matching and double clutching is the significance of blipping the throttle with the clutch out (double clutching) as opposed to while the clutch is in (rev matching).

Does rev matching simply make the shift feel better to you, but it's still hard on the transmission components, and double clutching is what makes it not as damaging to the car? What is the difference whether the clutch is depressed when you blip the throttle?

SWRT

scl23 is right, double clutching isn't necessary with modern cars.

The idea behind reving in neutral is to bring your input shaft up to speed with your output shaft, so that the gears will mesh perfectly. Modern cars have synchros which are designed to do the exact thing (bring the input shaft up to speed with the output shaft as you engage the next gear). By double clutching you are saving wear on the synchros, but why not use what you paid for. You can downshift faster without double clutching.

When you do need to double clutch is when you are using a dog box, which no production cars ever come with. Dog boxes don't have synchros and are designed for high horsepower high load race cars. The advantage a dog box has over a synchro box is certainly durability, and the ability to upshift without using the clutch (again, this takes some finese).


-SWRT

aaronng

Double clutching was for vehicles that did not have synchros in the gearbox. With modern vehicles, all of them have synchros on each gear, so double clutching is unnecessary to change gears. You can still do it, I suspect that you'll save a bit on synchro wear. Also, when you blip the throttle during double clutching, the stick has to be in neutral and the clutch FULLY out.

Rev matching on the other hand saves the clutch material from wearing because the speed of both the input and output will be the same.

Heel toe is rev matching, but done during braking. You could say it is a combination of rev matching and braking.

g35doc

Very informative last 2 posts.

cconrad

Maybe my 1997 Civic wasn't a modern car, but I found that on downshifts at high speeds to low gears (3rd and lower), the shift was much smoother with double-clutching.

I did not normally double clutch, just when driving fast and downshifting to a gear that would result in a high engine RPM for the speed I was travelling. I found if I didn't do this, the transmission would be reluctant to synchronize.

So, since it is second nature to me, I may find myself doing the same thing in the TSX.

psteng19

I wish I could describe these better, but it's easier to experience than to explain.

Rev match scenario:
When you need to slow down as smoothly as possible, mostly during downshifting and/or coming to a stop.

Double clutch scenario:
You need to downshift to first but first gear lockout prevents you from doing so because you are going too fast (most likely scenario).
Your synchros are worn and you can't get in gear or you want to prevent excess wear on your synchros.

Heel-toe scenario:
You need to slow down while braking, without disturbing the momentum of the car (usually during a turn) and you want to be in the best possible gear when exiting the turn.
The downshift also provides better/smoother stopping power and will not lock up the tires on a non-ABS car.

psteng19

From your post, I don't think you understand what riding the clutch is.
Rev matching has nothing to do with riding the clutch.
Riding the clutch is when you have the clutch partially depressed, which causes extra wear from the slipping the clutch against the flywheel.
i.e. slightly resting your foot on the clutch pedal unneccessarily
It's aka 'slipping the clutch'.

psteng19

Too many unnecessary steps.

You don't have to be in neutral to blip the throttle.
You can be in gear with the clutch disengaged.
What you've effective done is a double clutch.

The way you do it:

1. clutch in
2. put in neutral
3. clutch out a little???
4. blip throttle
5. downshift
6. clutch out

vs. the way I do it:

1. clutch in
2. downshift
3. blip throttle
4. clutch out

I just saved you 2 steps

SDCGTSX

I beg to differ. If you are using the clutch to rev match because you are not timing it well, then yes you are wearing down the clutch unnecessarily. If you are shifting with the revs matched then you can re-engage w/o much use of the clutch.

Riding clutch may be the wrong term, I think the idea was clutch wear.

aaronng

That's not double clutching then. The reason to double clutch is to get the input shaft to the same speed as the gear that you want to get into. If you don't release the clutch before you blip the throttle, then you won't get the input shaft speed to match. The next thing is, you're meant to blip BEFORE you shift! Otherwise, what you are doing is just a regular rev-match.

And third, they call it a double clutch before you have to use the clutch twice.

aaronng

I think he said that because the original poster said that he was told to blip the throttle while pressing the clutch pedal down halfway (i.e. riding).

Riding the clutch with a change in engine rpm = clutch wear

psteng19

That's what I'm describing.
A rev-match during downshift.

I didn't literally mean that he was double clutching.
Just that his motions basically mirror those of a double clutch, which is exactly what he's doing (minus full disengage of clutch).
Read it again.

psteng19

Blipping the throttle during downshift is NOT riding the clutch.

aaronng

I just read his original post. My fault! I thought he was talking about double clutching in the first post.

SDCGTSX

Read the post. I'm not talking about a good blip downshift rev match, I'm talking about ppl who don't time their upshift so they don't have to use their clutch to slowly rev match or don't blip their downshift so they don't have to use their clutch. READ.

PixelHarmony

Timing it takes a lot of practice though. I still can't time every shift right.. so usually i'm about 50-100 rpm off at times, especially when racing

But I think it's more practical for comfort than clutch wear. I can't stand riding in the passengers seat of a guy who can't drive stick.

psteng19

Maybe you should follow some of your own advice and re-read the post.
He incorrectly described 'riding the clutch' and I corrected him.

His interpretation of riding the clutch was "a little tap on gas to increase engine rmp DURING downshifting so that you're not riding the clutch."

I believe I'm correct when I say a throttle blip/rev match is NOT riding the clutch as he incorrectly stated. Beg to differ all you want.

psteng19

Blah... I couldn't edit my original post.

He incorrectly described 'riding the clutch' and I corrected him.
Then you came along and started rambling about using the clutch to rev-match and wearing the clutch which has nothing to do with riding the clutch.

Not rev matching != riding the clutch (!= means 'does not equal' for the non-programmers)
Not rev matching = more wear on the clutch, as you stated, but it's NOT riding the clutch.
It's just poor clutch work.

stphy32

my next goal in life is to learn how to drive stick

when I do, I will print this off and use it!

253AC_TL2005

Does anyone here shift without using your clutch (granted youy have to start out in first with the clutch) I am a truck driver and we use rev matching to float gears. I also understand that semi truck gears are a lot more heavy duty than a car but I also am able to "float gears" in my tsx.... is that bad?

jpt

Float-shifting is bad even in your semi, because if you miss the rev match or if there's too much torque (positive or negative) when you start the shift, you will severely strain your dog teeth (i.e. grind) which is not only bad for the dog teeth but can actually break your gears if you do it too much or too hard.

You should always use your clutch; it's there to reduce the otherwise significant strain placed on your gearbox during shifting.

mrdeeno

I learned to drive stick from my high school bus driver....GRIND'EM 'TIL YA FIND'EM!

LuvMyTSX

LOL...this entire thread is like Russian to me....I need to learn stick .

jpt

Come down to DC for a weekend and i'll teach you on my car. It's real easy.

ninjamyst

Can you guys help a newbie out with getting out of 1st and upshifting to 2nd? It takes me forever to get out of 1st and I keep lugging the car. What are some good tips on a smooth, fast takeoff from a complete stop? not racing but normal driving.

BusyShifter

See Dan's post (#3). Just ease out the clutch gently, especially when you are close to the engagement point.

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...ht=Learn+shift

Still Water

In addition to the above, my advice is to find someone to tell you or read up on what a clutch is and how it works so you'll have at least a mental understanding of what the hell is going on. The short version is that the clutch disengages your engine from the gears. Clutch in ---> go to next gear ---> clutch eased out while gas pedal eased down. It's pretty basic. As mentioned earlier the "driving without the clutch" is the perfect example of "timing & catching" the gears/revs. The goal here is timing & feel. On up shifting you want to "catch" the gear while you're "loading" the torque curve on its bottom end up to where you start over again with the next gear up. On down shifting it's pretty much the opposite with the addition of catching the next lower gear on its upper end of the curve and then letting the engine "brake" of "grab" (slow you down or speed you up) keeping in mind what your rev/torque range is for the gear in question. It takes practice, practice, practice. If you can learn to drive with your butt, feel your engine and know your shift points you'll be able to drive hard, live within your torque ranges and never burn out a clutch or grind up you gears.

Don't be afraid to experiment and if you're still having problems find someone that knows how to properly treat a fine machine such as the TSX and have them teach you to drive a stick. You can't know how to do everything...

Dice

Just when I thought i was getting the hang of driving stick i got more confused. Anyone here from NJ what would wanna meet up and give me some pointers?

Still Water

My advice is to stop thinking so much. MT in cars nowadays almost shift themselves. Just remember you're using the engine to speed you up (up shifting or down shifting to run up the revs while speeding up) and slow you down (engine breaking). In general, that's it. If you read what I said above, it is truly simpler than you think. The areas such as Heel & Toe braking really should be taught to you by someone who knows what they're doing and on a track. OJT learning of some of these techniques can easily end you up in a ditch or tree. First things first.

Have fun learning!

Dice

Yea I know. Thats why i was hoping someone on here would be from around my area could give me a little lesson. I pretty much bought my car in MT from the dealership and said screw it, ill learn as i go and no one i know really know how to drive stick. Most of my friends are young and in my opinion really dont know how to drive it properly and wear the clutch out too much. Thx for the tips hopefully ill get a real good hang of it.

Still Water

Hang in there & good luck. You'll get the hang of it.

JTso

iTrader: (2)

New MT drivers should just stick with the basic clutch-in, shift, clutch-out and gas steps. Don't worry about all the rev-match techniques until you are proficient with the basics. Driving a stick is really not as complicated as it seems.

Newplay1

Empty parking lot is your friend.. put the car in neutral , clutch-in -> shift to first --> feel the car rolling, slowly let the clutch-out and remember the engaging pt.

samualcc

Let me see if I can help everyone here out who might still be confused. I do not drive a TSX (though considered getting one heavily before settling on a G35 Coupe).

There are only two basic things to think about when you are shifting, and several different ways to do them, or to describe them.

First is the most common. Rev Matching.

Thanks to modern technology, almost all consumer manual transmissions come with syncros. They are responsible for increasing the speed of the input shaft of the engine. If you need more information on what is actually going on in your cars trans when you shift, I suggest this link:

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/transmission.htm

Now onto rev matching. Rev matching is any action in which you match the revs of the engine, to the revs of the output shaft. Your output shaft is always moving because it is tied to the movement of your car. How fast it is moving depends on the gear you are in. For example, in 2nd gear at 30 miles per hour, your output shaft will be moving faster than at the same speed in 3rd gear.

The engine is controlled with throttle and the input shaft with syncros. Imagine you are upshifting from 1st to 2nd. In my Coupe there is almost a 1500rpm difference between the two. The steps for me are:

Clutch in (aka push the clutch to the floor) and remove throttle at 3000rpms.
I move the shifter to second gear.
Wait for RPMs to drop to about 1800.
Clutch out.

I have just rev matched my engine to my output shaft (aka the combination of my vehicles speed and the speed of my output shaft).

This works the same way with a downshift. Lets assume I want to shift from 4th to 3rd. There is about a 900rpm different between the two.

Clutch in.
Move the shift to gear 3 while adding gas. If I was at 2000rpms in 4th and want to shift to 3rd at the same speed I need to add 900rpms of throttle.
Clutch out.

Yay now I am in 3rd and have used throttle to rev match the engine instead of the clutch. If your lost at this point you REALLY need to research how a transmission works. Rev matching is highly suggested not only to help with clutch wear, but also to smooth out shifts.

Now onto Double Clutching.

Double clutching is far less important than rev matching, since we have syncros. I am not going to get into all the technical stuff about the shafts and gears. Read the link from above about 5 times and you will get it. Here is the procedure to double clutch. I will try and illustrate what is going inside the car.

You are moving along in 3rd gear. Engine, input shaft, output shaft, and wheels are all moving at the same ratio to the speed of the car. You want to shift to 2nd and your car does not have syncros or you are trying to help them out.

Clutch in (input shaft and engine will begin to slow down)
Move shifter into neutral
Clutch out and increase revs to match the speed your engine should be at in 2nd gear. This connects everything and increases your input shaft speed.
Clutch in
Quickly move from neutral to 2nd.
Clutch out.

If you don't get why in the world you would do this, you must read about it. You will never understand how it all works unless you READ or have some explain it with pictures and stuff.

Also for all you newbie stick drivers. Go to this sight and read the forum and ask questions: http://www.standardshift.com/forum/

Now that it is all clear as mud, go hence forth and beat on your cars! If this made sense I can talk about heel and toes, etc if people are interested.