Brad

Within the past year or so, Toyota has made statements that gas-electric hybrid cars are the future. Their Prius has something like 90% of the hybrid market. Toyota also made a sweeping statement that in 10 years or so that all of their product line would use gas-electric technology.

As far as I can tell, all current gas-electric hybrid cars all have automatic trannies. Eeeeeeeeks! <gasp, gasp, gasp, gasp> Eeeeeeeeeks!

Has anyone heard of Toyota, Honda, or anyone devoting R&D to manual tranny gas-electric hybrid cars?

James

hm all i know is the insight ONLY came in manual at first.. so i doubt it isn't possible -and im pretty sure theyd offer in manual..?

ClutchPerformer

You can get the Civic Hybrid with a manual, too.

Brad

Thank you. What a relief!! The article that I had read mentioned only Toyotas, hybrids, and AT.

sauceman

Nope. The insight has the CVT transmition. Miles away from stick.

fjtorres

____________________________________________

Fear not, the future is not all-auto...
Hybrid drive-trains are just another way to spin a drive shaft.
There is a reason why current hybrids are autos but it is a marketing choice, not a technical need, so there will be room for manuals, since there is nothing in the hybrid design (or for that matter, fuel-cell designs, the next step after hybrids) that *requires* an auto tranny.

What happens is that, given the eco-activist target market of the early cars, it would've been counter-productive to feature a stick-shift on current cars; think of the typical hybrid driver and see if you can imagine any of them rowing through a six-gear box *voluntarily*. ;-)
We're talking folks that see cars as appliances and, in fact, that is pretty much what the current hybrids deliver: transportation appliances.

On the flip-side, can you imagine any kind of driving enthusiast bragging of driving a car with that kind of power/weight ratio...? >;-)

As for hybrids being the future, well, it depends on whose future you're talking about and, what market and time period you're targetting.

Generally, the expected progression for basic-transportation cars looks to go from pure-mechanical internal combustion cars-->to electric accessories-->to electric-assist-->to mechanical-assist hybrids-->to pure fuel cell drive.

The first step, which we see already in some non-hybrid cars, is the adopting of 42-volt electrical systems to drive all the accessories (power steering, A/C, etc). The second phase brings in true hybrids where a small IC-engine works at steady-state and an electric drive supplements it when power need is higher. The third phase makes the electric drive the primary and the gas engine serves to keep the batteries charged and produce supplemental power. The final step in the evolution comes wnen a fuel cell-stack replaces the IC engine and most of the battery capacity.

Current hybrids are somewhere between stages two-and-three and are only now becoming more than GAMMA-TEST products, and that only for the basic transportation niche.

We are still a ways off from a stage three-vehicle that can offer anything even vaguely approaching the TSX experience in power/weight ratio or handling. Realistically, I doubt anybody now alive will live to see the day when Ferraris are driven solely by fuel-cell electric drive. Hondas? possibly. But even there, I doubt we'll see a fuel-cell driven electric S2000 any time soon.

So, while Toyota may see a lot of hybrids in their future, they're really talking the sub-Camry side of their product line, at least for the next 10-20 years. Bear in mind that Japan leans heavily towards Civic-and-smaller-class vehicles *and* they are nowhere near as fretful of nuclear power as the left in the US, so electric-assist vehicles make more sense there than they do in freeway-crazy suburbia. (And never mind the fact that Hydrogen is not really a fuel but an energy storage mechanism that needs to be produced by either a nuclear plant or by burning coal or natural gas.)

As for Acura, notice that all the talk of hybrids in the Acura line centers on adding a second drive system to provide electric rear-wheel drive and maybe an extra 100HP at most of total vehicle power, most of which will be needed just to deal with the added weight, so don't expect to see an AWD hybrid RL doing Ferrari times even though it may spec out at something like 320+ HP total from both systems...

For RWD-averse Honda, it makes sense to graft the Civic electric drive onto Acuras to produce AWD vehicles but this is just a ways to make up for the lack of V8's at the high-end of their product line, not a trend you'll see any time soon in other makes that already have RWD platforms at hand.

larchmont

Aren't you glad you asked, Brad?

Great great post, FJT.

Junkster

I think one of the auto journals has reported that the hybrid engine that Honda is working on is a 3 liter V-6. So this might be the engine they are developing for the RL.

Junkster, who wonders how much HP they will put out on it.

Brad

Thanks for the wonderful and informative post, fjtorres.

ClutchPerformer

Yes. An excellent post.

I'm here to make sure your kids don't drive fuel cell powered vehicles. There is no substitute for IC.

DEVO

I doubt toyota has 90% of the hybrid market. The Civic Hybrid and Insight both come with Manual or CVT transmission. I have a civic hybrid cvt and it's a fun car to drive... plus 52mpg puts a smile on my face every time i go to fill up.

Brad

Good to know thanks.

Oh, my source for the "90%" figure for Toyota was from a foreign source (New Zealand) and is likely out of context given the North American orientation of this forum. However, that source says Toyota has 90% of the global market and Honda has the remainder. From the New Zealand Herald: Keeping to protocol

fjtorres

Could be; Toyota is a much bigger company than Honda to start with and their new assembly line for their Hybrids is supposed to be good for as much as 100000 units a year, so they *are* serious about hybrids.

Brad

According to www.driveclean.ca.gov, some upcoming "clean cars" that use hybrid technology include:

Lexus RX 330 Hybrid – Due to hit dealer showrooms in the fall of 2004

Saturn Vue Hybrid – The Saturn Vue hybrid is projected to be on the market in mid 2005.

Toyota Highlander Hybrid - Introduction of a hybrid version of the Toyota Highlander is expected to follow the launch of the Lexus RX400h.

Lexus LS430 Sedan Hybrid - Toyota will likely add a version of its premium sedan, or the Lexus LS430, to the lineup of alternative fuel vehicles...

Here's a link:
UPCOMING CLEAN CARS:

Toyota is clearly applying hybrid petrol-electric technology across the board.