CL6

The TSX is a nice car but it isn't a BMW. My issues with the TSX are the tinny sounding doors when you close it, the lack of torque from the engine, FWD, and the fact that it's really just a dressed up Euro Accord. The Nav system is great, the controls are easy to use, the interior plastics are nice but its hollow like a Civic and doesn't feel as substantial to me as a heavier car. Just the way the trunk is finished, things like that.

Lease a BMW or buy a TSX but the two cars are very different for different types of people.

CarbonGray Earl

Still don't get why this is bad....the Euro Accord directly competed with the previous gen C-Class and e46 3 series as well as other cars in that segment in Europe. It Euro Accord even won a couple of comparos against the C-class (top gear and car I believe?), with the US honda accord interior and not our dressed up one.

Perception is one thing, but don't be fooled into thinking that a Euro Accord is considered lesser in Europe and hence the TSX is lesser than its competition here. Your complaints that the TSX is only a 4cyl and has tinny sounding doors are certainly valid (and subjective), however the claim that being based off a Euro Accord is a black mark is somewhat elitist, especially considering how well the Euro does against its peers in Europe.

Its as if, after reading the glowing review of the CL-S and how it more than adequately outhandles and out accelerates it BMW e46 competition, I say "ya, but its still a FWD".

CL6

We're not in Europe, are we? My CL-S is FWD and I wish it weren't. But the CL-S is not a 'sports' car as a 3-Series is. Apples and oranges, right? I wouldn't quite agree that a CL-S 'out handles' a 3 Series. I've driven mine for 3 years and I think I can conclude it doesn't. Apples to oranges.

And there's a reason why there's not one high performance car in the world that's FWD.

Being based off the Euro Accord vs. a BMW is not elitist it is just the way it is. Nobody really likes badge engineering and there are plenty of cars (3 Series included) that are not badge engineered. An Accord and a BMW have a different type of pedigree and history and very different vibes... to ignore that is to ignore reality and the marketplace.

I've driven tons of TSXs and they are fun but it ain't a BMW (which was the question at the start of this thread).

wackura

Your implication is that its a non-luxury car with a luxury name tag, but nobody can say for sure that the Honda Accord wasn't intended to be luxury car in Europe. They obviously see Honda Accords as a different kind of car in Europe than we do here, hence the seperate models.

The car should be evaluated for what it is. It is elitest to actualy concern yourself with the badge, but don't worry you're not alone, that's the reason we have an Acura RL and they have a Honda Legend.

CarbonGray Earl

"we're not in europe"- Why would you bring up the Euro Accord if we aren't in Europe anyways? It was your point, and if you see fit to disregard now that it does not fit your purposes, so be it. Euro Accord is of no consequence then since its in Europe.

The reason I don't agree that BMW carries the water you say it does is that I have owned both a TSX and a 3 (e36 5mt coupe). Lived with them, commuted with them, maintained them, modded them, etc. Drove the snot out of each. I am not mystified by BMW and its magic formula, as some can be. So, for me, its not a hypothetical thing that we discuss back and forth. Indeed, I think both cars were great and would have a hard time choosing between them.

To a degree, you would have to admit that this comparison is subjective. We certainly could go in circles trying to convince each other as if it really has any bearing on our perception. What it comes down to for me is this. The BMW driving feel was great, but a bit demanding. Controls in a BMW or any german vehicle are heavier- they add the perception that the vehicle is substantial, solid. Steering, while well-weighted, is heavier than a Honda's. I learned over many commutes and back road runs that I don't like that, and I enjoy the ease/lightweighted-ness of Honda's controls- steering, shifting, etc.

On your point of badge engineering, if it allows us to get a car that we would otherwise not have access to, I welcome it. I tend to keep an open mind and I drive the car, not the badge. Honestly, if the American Accord did not diverge from the ROW/Euro Accord, I'd still be in an Accord and not think twice what anyone thinks.

CL6

And the reason it's the "RL" here and the "Lengend" there has nothing to do with "elitism." Nobody buys an Acura RL though. Sales are down 43.7% from last year. And we're not in Europe we're in the U.S. so anything else is irrelevant.

"Acura" is a premium nameplate (otherwise go to Honda) so we need to evaluate the vehicle (TSX) based upon how it's presented. The TSX is presented as a premium sports sedan (a la BMW).

A Timex and a Rolex both keep accurate time but aside from that there's not much else in common. To say one finds a Rolex to be a "better" watch than a "Timex" is not elitist.

wackura

You say evaluate as it's presented but yet you're the one that pointed out it's a Euro Accord, which has nothing to do with its US presentation. You're not making any sense. Nobody here perceives that it's a Euro Honda Accord unless someone tells them. It's not written onto the promo materials.

CL6

Of course I pointed out it's a Euro Accord. Its underpinings have everything to do with its presentation. A Jaguar X Type is just a Ford Mondeo with wood and leather and that has everything to do with that vehicle. It's entirely relevant. I don't read promo materials I read car magazines who all point out on which vehicle the TSX is based.

CarbonGray Earl

again, clarify what is wrong with the euro accord? Is it merely because of its badge? Magazines have pointed that out, but never have they held it against the TSX- in fact it tends to be mentioned in passing, like an "oh that's interesting" fact. IOW, its not a negative, as you make it out to be.

Since this is really about the Euro Accord now, please elaborate what you find wrong with it. My first question is have you driven one? Or, like me, what have you read about it? I'm interested into how you formed your perception, because it more than anything seems to be the basis for your argument that an Acura TSX is < a BMW 3....and its not really founded upon how good the car is. If we refer to magazines as a reference, both the TSX and Euro Accord were (and still are) pretty well regarded vs. the typical Euro sedan.

So what's wrong with a well-regarded European car named Accord?

wackura

He realizes it was an elitist remark but is too proud to take it back.

Power1Pete

For those of you don't already know, the Euro Accord was rated the best handling sedan in the UK back in 2003 by Autocar Magazine. It beat the Audi S4 and the Volvo S60R.

vitocorleone

Yep, and those expensive 3 Series BMWs are largely just oversized 1 series (yes, BMW does indeed share parts between its cars, and the 3 has a lot in common with their entry level car). Does this somehow devalue or denigrate the 3 series? No.

Also, are you 100% certain that there's just as many people in Europe holding your overall negative viewpoint of the Accord as there are here in the states (not that really anyone in the states even knows the TSX is an Accord - one that is quite different from its American counterpart... of course it's also not exactly a Euro Accord, either, but close). Based on what I know - and I've been on this board a long time now - it's a well-regarded vehicle in Europe.

When I bought the TSX it was ~90% of the performance of a 325i with a much nicer interior and for a lot less money. I would say it was a nicer car than the BMW. OH NO! Shoot me now for speaking blasphemy!

Since that time BMW has released a newer, more bloated version of the 3 series. Well, Honda will be releasing a new version of the TSX as well and we don't know which car(s) they're targeting. Yet.

davidspalding

Gee and here I thought it was an "upscale family sedan" or "Acura's entry-level sedan." I'm driving a luxury-mobile? Woot! And for only $24k.

I too like the heavier controls that I've experienced in Volvos, Bimmers, but I also like the light touch I can use with my Tess-X. I ALSO like how reliability and repair trends trump those models in one or more categories. I can live with a little less "achtung" and a little more money in my pocket. I miss my old MGB, but I don't miss those repair bills, oy.

P.S. I wouldn't trade my Seiko dive watches for a Rolex or Omega. I actually like having a watch that isn't a status symbol. Same for my ride. My daughter named the Tess "Silverina," which I prefer over Gretel or Hilde.

CL6

Hey the TSX is a fine car... I only said it ain't a BMW. If you want to call that 'elitist' that's your business... but I can tell you Acura (and many others like Lexus, Infiniti, Audi, etc.) consider the BMW 3 Series the benchmark so clearly there's something there.

rsx_r04

Exactly!

It's about what YOU want.

3-series is RWD, costs a lot to begin with, and costs more to maintain.

TSX is FWD (easier to drive), loaded with tons of features, less expensive to maintain, and arguably more reliable.

Your pick.

davidspalding

I agree with you about the watches, now that I've had a night's sleep. A Timex is disposable, a Rolex is an heirloom. And I sort of agree with you on the Bimmer vs. Tess-X, but I don't buy Acura's marketing that it's a BMW-killer. I think they're very different vehicles.
See, I DON'T swallow what Acura presents. I simply drove it and scored it on my personal wants/needs list. It scored better than a top of the line (US) Accord coupe. That's probably 180 out from how others (car mag editors) evaluate it. So it goes.

aw1

Regarding F1, did you know Honda JUST recently for the past few years got back into F1? Honda as a company (factory sponsored teams)? Give them several more years to catch up to the main teams or engine suppliers whose been in the series for a while. ie. Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault, BMW, etc.. In several years, Toyota will be there to challenge them as well.

Honda was technically in F1 with Honda engines which were tuned by Mugen but were not backed by the factory with new technology.

Before Honda decided to leave F1 in the 80's, they were the most dominating team/engine supplier. This is a fact not fiction.

CL6

I used to sell Acuras and Acura has this publication called 'Talk Back' where they compare X Acura with X competition. One week there'd be an MDX and a Lexus RX and they'd say: "Tell your customer that the MDX has this much more rear seat space than the Lexus RX" or whatever. Well with the TSX you'd hear the Audi A4 or the BMW 3 Series so obviously Acura is looking at the 3 Series as competition. Now, are they really going after one another? That's a different question entirely. I think the TSX gets put out there as being against the BMW but in reality it's more the Accord, etc.

We can say what we want about BMWs and the people who drive them but the fact is the 'BMW ride' drives the performance market out there in many ways. I'm not saying it's a universal gold standard or a BMW is an heirloom like an Omega or Rolex but people will, in general, buy the highest quality thing they can within their budget whether it's a car, a steak, a watch, a laptop, etc. Sure some people will not be like this but most will.

With a BMW it can be tough to sort out what's real and what's hype. I can only tell you I've driven both and, if money were not an issue, I'd buy the BMW.

And I think Honda makes the best engines and transmissions on the planet. They are the largest maker of engines in the world, in fact. If Honda wanted to build a BMW beater they could.

grapeguice

There's a line in Ridley Scott's Bladerunner about the light that burns twice as bright burns half as long. Maybe the BMWs burn brighter, but only half as long, metaphorically, anyway. The numbers are just for effect, buy you get the idea.

At work , there's a lady whose family buys BMWs only. Mom, Dad, brother and sister all have one. This family has done well financially so maybe that's why this is a good choice for them. If I had unlimited funds, I could see myself getting a BMW much more readily, but people who need to watch their finances can't make decisions like that and not feel these decisions where it hurts.

Anyway on to a related topic, in terms of branding, logos and status symbols, the BMWs are hard to beat. Their marketing and the way they develop and sell their products is impressive. Acuras are much quieter, but maybe that's intentional. I must say that I enjoy owning a brand that is a little more exclusive than the norm even though I know exactly what's underneath and what makes the car go. For most people, maybe not AZ members, but the general population at least doesn't want to associate with the Honda name, but to me that's what makes all Hondas and Acuras as great as they are. Maybe it's something similar to attaching a title to your name like Dr. over even being called Mr. is a sign of respect that feeds the ego a little bit while almost anyone can buy a Honda which feels more like more of casual first name approach.

Another analogy I can think of is when you're a teen, you think of your parents as the most embarrassing creatures on earth, but as you get older, you realize that the reason you've got many of the great things in your life is because of the foundations they laid and the sacrifices they made to benefit you and your siblings. For people who had better parents, you realize that you learned some valuable lessons even though you didn't know you learned them. Basically, I'm saying that you should appreciate that things are good for you and realize why they are so good for you. Maybe an easier way to say this is to appreciate those things that are close to you and made a true impact on you like your parents versus idolizing superstar athletes who may be impressive, but have less personal impact due to their great distance from you.

I went off track a little bit, but gettting back to Hondas, I agree that Honda has many more resources (financially, engineers, patents, process,etc.) than BMW does, but they choose to stick what they're good at. I think Honda has gotten into boat motors fairly recently and the newest method of propulsion is the HondaJet which is built in conjunction with GE, but if that venture is successful, I can see Honda making jets exclusively of their own engineering. BMW had started making aircraft engines, but no longer do this while Honda is moving into aircraft engines. In case anyone has any doubts, aircraft manufacturing is the most demanding of any kind of manufacturing on earth. That's just the way things are.

dom

I would argue that almsot 8 years is just recently.

Fact. Honda re-entered Formula One as an engine supplier with BAR back in 2000 with a fully backed factory effort.

In 2005 They took complete control of the operations.

Fact. BMW also began supplying F1 engines in 2000 and again in 2005 fully acquired Sauber to form BMW F1.


Fact. BMW is now the 3rd best team in Formula 1 while Honda languishes at the back of the field. While I agree they'll need several more years to catch up, BMW in the same time frame has come much, much further. Granted, Sauber was further ahead of BAR in when they took control of the teams. Engines alone can't be faulted but Honda has been a huge disappointment thus far in F1. Granted, so has Toyota.

Having said all that. F1 success IMO has no effect on the road car business. The only reason I brought up F1 was because the previous poster mentioned how great Honda was at Motorsports.

davidspalding

Like this whole argument....

The subject is, "If you can afford it, get the BMW ... why?" I just think some car buyers are looking for value (ROI), not just the acknowledged appeal that BMWs offer. Seems to me that Acuras have a more advantageous TCO due to reliability and resale value. In the end, buyers make purchases based on their own values and needs, not what you or you or you think about BMWs. Get over it.

(checks out of thread)

aw1

I think a lot has to do with the chasis of the cars more than the engines. Honda and Toyota are not the best as we can see in F1 in developing great race cars. However, in my opinion, if you put all 3 engines in the same chasis/car, all 3 will be in the same level. This is my opinion only.

aw1

As to why buy a BMW? I think its for status only. Years ago, people who had BMW, Mercedes, etc. were looked at in a different level (upper class). Today, with many of us able to afford to buy these cars, they are not that exclusive anymore. I prefer to be known as a smart buyer/shopper. Acura in my opinion is the best bang for you buck car company.

CarbonGray Earl

First, I really like BMWs, in fact, I'll agree with you that they are a benchmark on certain things. However, I will reiterate the flaw in your argument on TSX vs. 3 series (e46 at least). Public perception at large isn't always the best guage for what quality is. The mob mentality and social status ramifications are often whats involved with luxury car decisions, especially at this entry level. The projection of wealth, status, and being with the in crowd. Its a country club mentality. The choice is often based more in what they want to project rather than how well it drives (or how well they can drive the car).

I think to some degree, you are caught up in this for this comparison while I am not, based on owning both makes, not just having "driven both". Trust me, there is a difference between driving and owning- driving is like wine tasting, owning is like drinking a whole glass...along with 5 course meal.

Even the experience you had at an Acura dealer has played into your perception. Certainly, to go after the market leader is a smart strategy to have, however, it isn't a definitive factor in to which car is better. Indeed, even you equating it with an Accord is a way of slighting the TSX, even though those in the know understand that the Euro Accord is an excellent car to be based off of. Its perception, and even though its the illusion of reality for some, it is not for me.

I guess for the sake of saving face, you have chosen not to read alot of what was said, and I can't blame you for it. I mean, we all try to "win" these little internet debates. However, I still find no concrete basis for your arguments other than public perception of BMW's quality and ride, and the downmarket perception of the "Accord" name. Perception will not cut it for me, as I have gotten to know both the BMW 3 and my TSX through ownership. I guess I will agree to disagree with you based on what I have presented. Thanks for discussing it with me, I don't see any benefit of me taking this further.

PACman

^^ 1 away from 1,000

wackura

It's true that in the US the Accord is portrayed as 'less luxurious than a TSX' but in Europe where there is no Acura brand and no USDM Accord, there is absolutely no evidence they see an Accord as a second string car, and in fact the word is this model was meant to apeal to entry level BMW and Audi buyers. They succeeded at making a car tht is similar yet significantly cheaper.

CarbonGray Earl

Thanks fellow Highlander, I might as well make it a good one.

Drum roll please.....

1000!!!

:gheywave:

Thanks Acurazine and its members for keeping me from being bored at my computer. Its been real, its been fun. Its been real fun. Thanks a million....actually, thanks a thousand.

wackura

*** Congratulations from Palestine! ***

CarbonGray Earl

^^....ain't no party like a Palestinian party.....

PACman

^Congrats!

CarbonGray Earl

Thanks for pointing it out.

CL6

Different strokes for different folks. Saying one car is factually better than another is silly. I have only said what I prefer. If you prefer something else, go and buy it!

Johns

I am curious about something. A lot of people say that Acura is cheaper to maintain than BMW, or Mercedes (for that matter, most any other car). Is this because service charges are cheaper for Acura or because the German cars will have more service problems? I own a TSX and Mercedes C class. Just had brake work done on both.

Mercedes C230: front pads, front rotors, rear pads = $573.73
Acura TSX: rear pads, rear rotors = $496.36

Both services done at the dealer.

This was my first major money spent on the C230 which has 80,000 miles

The TSX has just had rear bearings replaced for $660 ( I'am really pissed about this since I have never had to replace bearings on a car before, especially at the amount of miles the TSX has, 82,000).

The drivers power window does not work on occasion and the dealer wants $500 to repair it.

Now here's how I look at it. My total cost of repairs on my C230 (which had free service up to 50,000 miles) has been $773 in five years of ownership.

The TSX has cost $2700 (which includes regular servicing and some repair items, Bearings, brakes, etc) in 4 years of ownership.

I love both cars ,but I would have to have a lot of extra repairs for the C230 to catch up to the TSX in cost of ownership

Overtaxed

Yours is a specific example. I think, when people say cost of ownership is higher, then mean, average for one brand/model over another, if you keep a car longer than the first 3-4 years.

Your MB sounds like a gem. That's great. They don't fare so well in reliability, overall, in general. Acuras, having greater predicted reliability (not so in your case), and thus are generally less costly to maintain over the long run.

Overtaxed

CarbonGrayEarl, I also wanted to say congratulations!

You don't know it, but I have always enjoyed reading your posts, and you have helped me learn a lot ever since I joined Acurazine. Thanks buddy!

Johns

Your right of course. I bought the TSX for my wife because I was insecure about the predicted reliability of my Benz. So far it hasn't worked out as I had planned, but still no big complaints because I have two very nice cars in the family

My wife and I test drove two used BMW 328s before buying the TSX. We loved the way both BMWs drove, but again, I was afraid of owning two german cars. Funny thing is, my wife and I have owned five VWs and two Hondas. Only one of the VWs gave us any trouble, a 1986 Golf and both Hondas had some problems, 1987 Accord LXI and the TSX. You just never know.

CarbonGray Earl

Thanks man, I appreciate the props. Its been fun discussing car stuff or otherwise with everyone on here.

I'll add one thing about Benz....you take care of that car, and it'll take care of you. The unfortunate thing is that as Benzes get older, much older, they do tend to have more things going wrong with them, little and big, and they tend to cost alot compared to a Honda. But if you repair it, the interior, driving dynamics, and fit in finish stay pretty immpecable.

I personally just inherited my grandma's '86 190e 2.3. Its still a beautiful car, it still is competent on the highway, and the interior, esp. the leather is top notch and not even worn. However, a couple of years ago, the AC stopped working, the power door locks stopped working, and the instrument cluster light went out. My grandma never drove the car as she got too old, so she didn't repair it. The cost of repairing those things now is worth more than the car, so I won't touch them. Most of these things would be easily repairable on a Honda, but its still very expensive on a Benz. However, I still love the car....it's a prime example of a german car.

waTSX

I thought I'd revive this thread after I test drove a sport package-equipped 328i today. I hadn't driven a Bimmer since the 328i replaced the 325i, so I thought I'd give it a whirl.

First impressions of the interior were good. Many have said that the interiors of the 3 series don't compare favorably to the TSX, but I have to disagree. The BMW interior is somewhat spartan, but I felt at home in there right away.

The heavily bolstered seats were excellent (this car had the leather) and the steering wheel is the best-feeling I've had the chance to drive. One thing I don't really get about the BMW is the insert-the-key-fob-in-the-dash-then-push-the-button-to-start-the-car thing. It seems overly complicated to me, but it works.

This car had the 6 MT and is the only way I'd consider buying a BMW. We pulled out of the parking lot and I noticed right away that the car had a very solid and planted feel to it. This is the first time I'd driven with the SP, and based on what I'd heard I expected harshness, but I found none. The stiffness of the ride is very similar to my A-Spec equipped TSX, and definitely very liveable. Very nice ride.

The tranny felt better than I remembered a Bimmer to be, but it's still not n the class of the TSX, with slight rubberyness and just a hint of notchiness at the gates. Still, I thought it was very good.

The engine is pure joy. Very smooth with solid power, and its peak torque is reached about 2750 RPM. It really begs to be revved, but I mostly took it easy, since the car only had 130 miles on it.

waTSX

I thought I'd revive this thread after I test drove a sport package-equipped 328i today. I hadn't driven a Bimmer since the 328i replaced the 325i, so I thought I'd give it a whirl. This review will focus on the drivability of the car and not the long term reliability of BMW's or anything like that.

First impressions of the interior were good. Many have said that the interiors of the 3 series don't compare favorably to the TSX, but I have to disagree. The BMW interior is somewhat more spartan, but I felt at home in there right away. The drink holders are a little screwy, but I don't buy a car for that feature anyway. It's certainly not a deal-breaker.

The heavily bolstered seats were excellent (this car had the leather) and the steering wheel is the best-feeling I've had the chance to drive. Nice and thick, and the steering itself is nothing short of phenomenal, with a lovely, heavy feeling to it. Turn-in is crisp and precise without being twitchy and feedback is very good.

One thing I don't really get about the BMW is the insert-the-key-fob-in-the-dash-then-push-the-button-to-start-the-car thing. It seems overly complicated to me, but it works.

This car had the 6 MT, which is the only way I'd consider buying a BMW. We pulled out of the parking lot and I noticed right away that the car had a very solid and planted feel to it. This is the first time I'd driven with the SP, and based on what I'd heard I expected harshness, but I found none. The stiffness of the ride is very similar to my A-Spec equipped TSX, and definitely very liveable. Very nice ride.

The tranny felt better than I remembered a Bimmer to be, but it's still not in the class of the TSX, with slight rubbery-ness and just a hint of notchiness at the gates. Still, I thought it was very good.

The engine is pure joy. Very smooth with solid power, and its peak torque is reached about 2750 RPM. It really begs to be revved, but I mostly took it easy, since the car only had 130 miles on it.

The salesman was cool and took me to some nice twisty spots to see what the car could do. One in particular was an uphill freeway on-ramp and he encouraged me to hammer it, and I obliged him. The 3 Series easily railed the 40 mph turn at near 70 mph and felt like it had a lot left. The car wallows a lot less in turns than my TSX and really inspires confidence. The TSX is great, but the BMW has the edge in handling, IMO.

When push comes to shove, the TSX is a fantastic car and a terrific value, with a much higher bang-for-your-buck quotient than the BMW. But when it comes to pure driving dynamics, I have to give the clear edge to the E90 328i. It really is a blast to drive.

CL6

It's not a BMW but the MB C300 w/6MT is pretty nice too. It has that RWD 'solid hunk of steel' thing going on too.