CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

I highly doubt the 3-series will lose too many sales. The 1-series will only come in a coupe and will be too small for a lot of people. Plus, it just isn't practical if you want any kind of usable space in the back.

Mokos23

if the 135i starts around 28K i'll definately look at it!

MSO4gtt

No dipstick? What the hell did I check my oil level with this morning?

Trackruner228

iTrader: (1)

I guess the Z4 isnt the same but the 3 series dont have dipsticks for some reason.

Zoopa

This is funny because we have BMW to thank for the sportsedan market. While Infiniti tries to chase BMW, Acura has done what they can within the limitations of front wheel drive. As BMW continuously pushes the performance envelope with magnesium engine blocks (328), twin-turbos (335), which Road & Track declared their new favorite engine, the question begs how often will you use that performance? I reason that if I were to buy an MDX or Odyssey minivan for my growing family, I would probably need the third row seat or the utility less than 5% of the time. The same would probably hold true for a hardcore sportsedan in my hands. Lately I tend to try maximizing my fuel economy, except for bursts of passing, stoplights, and exit/entrance ramps. Ironically, BMW created this segment, but other car companies have made their own contributions to it and the consumer has a lot of options.

In the end I found the awesome engine, awesome manual tranny, and great fuel economy to fit my needs. The money saved by avoiding a BMW could be used for a retirement nestegg, or a trip to Hawaii...

MSO4gtt

Yeah, the E9x is all electronic. The way of the future I guess. I think even the M5 is sans-dipstick now.

I'm still a fan of the dipstick. If nothing else, it gives me the opportunity to pop the hood and stare at the S54.

kappa821

if ur so worried about power, get a tl

1Louder

I think the move to electronic is horrible. It has absolutely no upside to the customer over a dipstick/oil warning light, and a huge downside of yet another thing to break plus the inconvenience of not being able to check your own oil. I think it's a rather shameless attempt to force BMW owners to take their car to a shop and pay $80/hr for some kid to do what they used to do in their driveway. For me, it would be another reason not to buy one.

Zoopa

The electronic dipstick will disappear when all-electric cars are common...but by then the the intelligent cockroaches will have arrived and the human race will be enslaved...sorry, different thread.

Zoopa

MSO4gtt

The lack of a dipstick would keep you from buying a BMW? Geez.

I like the dipstick, too, but the car is more than the sum of (or lack of) it's parts. Cars are basically one big computer now anyway, and the ability of Joe Blow to perform repairs and maintenance in his garage becomes less and less likely every year. The dipstick-less car will be the norm in a few years I bet.

Cars are all about compromise. My BMW has a dipstick, but it doesn't have an in-dash CD changer, seats that massage your balls, a back seat, digital gauges, a spare tire, or room to store much beyond a couple of envelopes. And yet I still leave the Acura in the garage almost every day while I go out driving!
I would probably buy another BMW if the hood didn't even open.

drkangel348

I know right? My girlfriend had a E46... One of the ignition coils went out after a year, window regulator broke, and for some reason she had to consistently replace her bulbs... Mehhh, I've had my TSX for over 3 yrs with no problems other than the door lock actuator dying recently.

Fact is most Hondas and Toyotas have the ability to withstand the test of time and thats the quality that counts IMO.

dereksmalls

I agree with you, everyone makes their choices. The dipstickless engine is just a sign of technology for the sake of technology, and if you look at the reliability of cars from VW/Audi, Merc, and BMW, it's obvious that electronics are not their strong suit.

Even Acura suffers from electronic invasion. Look at how many people have complained about the TSX's DBW system. Does the Corvette really need to have an "electronic" door latch, only to have a second emergency mechanical door release on the floor 6 inches away from the electronic button? At some point the automakers are going to have to realize that it's time to stop.

1Louder

No, not by itself. I said would be another reason. I'm not a BMW hater or anything like that - there's a part of me that would love one. I think a used Z3 has a definite place in my mid-life-crisis future. The other (more important) reasons for not owning one today (besides the lack of dipstick ) is the up front cost & maintenance expense. I'm going to have two kids in college in 5 years and while most people on this board seem to be in college or very close to that age bracket, us old guys have big mortgages and lots of mouths to feed.

On a somewhat philosophical note, I do still object on principle to the trend towards making car owners dependent on dealerships or mechanics through intentional design decisions. You can't help computers running cars any more, but explain to me one good reason for an electronic monitor over a dipstick. The only one I can think of is more $ going into dealership pockets by keeping you out from under the hood of your own car.

CarbonGray Earl

What's funny is that left an E36 to my sister, while I went and bought an 98 Acura Integra because I enjoyed driving it much more. To me, they messed with the original 2002ti formula when they went from the E30 to the E36. But with that new 1 series coming out, things could get interesting again for me.

You've certainly got a unique case though. Sure, I would choose to drive a Z4 over just about any Acura past and present too, except for an NSX.

Listen, I wouldn't take this thread as an affront to all BMW's, like your z4...the OPs simple comparison is: 3 series vs. the TSX, is it worth an $11k premium? The answer here will undoubtedly be biased to "no".

MSO4gtt

I'm not that much younger than you! No mouths to feed definitely helps, though
The only thing I can come up with is that a woman who would never even consider opening the hood might pay attention to something blinking on the dash. Thus she might return to the dealer before something goes awry. Otherwise, I don't know.

In regards to the, "is it worth $11K more"...........

I wouldn't pay $11K more for the 328 over a TSX. I would pay $11K more for the 335 in a heartbeat. It's all about what matters to the buyer. When I bought my M Coupe, I drove everything under the sun. Every magazine says the Cayman S is the better car, but I didn't buy it. It just didn't feel as raw and "in-your-face" like the M did. The fact that it was about $12-15K more didn't help matters any, but it wasn't the deciding factor. I just liked the BMW more. So the moral of the story is buy whatever puts a smile on your face (and whatever your wife will let you have

CarbonGray Earl

Couldn't agree more....

1Louder

I also whole-heartedly agree. One of the reasons I love my TSX - meets my driving needs and works with my 5-10 year financial needs.

mdrlausd

I traded in a 2002 325xi for my 2006 TSX. I loved the BMW, especially the sport seats, but my wife has an A4 that is out of warranty and there is no way I wanted to have two German cars out of warranty. However, you really can't compare the two cars. The price difference alone should tell you that they are competing in different markets. The TSX is probably the best overall value in the "near luxury" class. I think it looks better than the new 3-series too, but that's subjective. The BMW is the best handling car I have ever owned, and for me, had the most comfortable seats for long trips. That said, I don't regret my decision to buy the TSX at all. The navigation system is fantastic and the car looks great. My one pet peeve is one that nobody mentioned, and that is if it's raining or snowing you can't crack the driver's window without getting soaked. I have never owned a car that doesn't have some method of diverting the water away from the windows, but the dealer told me that the TL is the same way.

For me the choice was paying for extending the warranty and free maintenance on the BMW or buying a new TSX. I know what it costs to service and repair a German car out of warranty, and there is no way I would ever do that again.

Saintor

You guys seem to completely ignore that North of you, we have the BMW 323i 200HP, a more direct competitor to the TSX.



A TSX is now 37-something K$CAD.
A loaded 323i with both premium and sport packages is 39-something K$CAD.

Admittedly, the 323i is still lacking features even with both packages, but the TSX can only dream of the I6 and the 4 yrs/80000km all maintenance included.

As for the interior, the TSX is not great either, but yes it has some better design elements here and there.

LuvMyTSX

It's not that we "ignore" what you have up there per se, it's that we don't live there so we don't know and don't pay attention to what is available up there. Why would we if it isn't available here? I don't know about anyone else, but I myself don't ever go to Canadian car web sites to browse.

Before you said anything, I didn't even know about a 323. I guess that price is more comparable, but like you said, it is missing some features that are on the TSX. If you can live without those features, then sure, go for it.

1Louder

Why is it that auto makers offer the best cars every where but America. I don't know how many cars I found that would be perfect but are only offered overseas. I think the fact we love our TSX's - which happens to be the European Accord - says a lot.

MSO4gtt

Agreed. Not just cars but we tend to get shafted on options as well. A perfect example is that BMW does not offer the Individual program here in the states (except on the 7 series.) The way Americans like to customize their vehicles, it would be a tremendous success and make tons of coin for BMW. I have no clue why they don't offer it here.

grapeguice

My nits and picks for the TSX tend to center around things that don't relate to the lack of power: noisy Michelin tires and poor shocks. Whereas the motor is not a twin turbo, it makes all the beautiful sounds when you shift down for passing, and what a smooth shifter it is.


The stock Michelins are noisy, but I also think Honda could add some more sound proofing which adds cost and a little bit of weight. Even though, I like having lots of features in the TSX, it's still just a tad heavy at almost 3400 for the 5AT. Also, I agree about the sounds the engine makes when revving higher. Honda put some time and effort into this.

Some important things to know about Honda: They are the world's largest manufacturer of internal combustion engines, they have been ranked the most environmentally friendly company, and they don't have the quality problems that Toyota has (but everyone seems to ignore.)[/QUOTE]


You are one of the few who appreciates the expertise and passion that Honda has for producing engines. Honda flies under most people's radar because they don't have the most power and the exterior styling is mostly conservative, understated yet tasteful. Most people show no love or respect for producing fuel efficient engines, but I'm pretty sure that if Honda wanted to produce the most power from it's engines, that would not be a problem. Putting this another way, if BMW brought their engines to the Indy car series, would they perform as well? Would Honda ever be beat in a head to head competition, engine to engine?

NOT A CHANCE.

There's no doubt that BMW has some great engines, but Honda is really underrated when it comes to this department, but I think they'd rather keep doing their thing rather than make waves and lose focus on what they're really good at.

Mokos23

there used to be a 323 sold here in the USA until 2001 I think when it became the 325.

JDMPLUS

Yeah I wish the car could be alittle more quieter but what can you expect when you have alot of those features as a standard already.

BMW - Better Handling No Doubt but its not something that you want to mess with unless you have the cash. Because you need $10000 if you want whatever TSX has in a BMW.

TSX- Good Handling nice budget toy. I guess you if want the extra power go get a reflash with intake for a total of $800 will get you another 30 ponies.

jmty02

[QUOTE=Saintor]
A TSX is now 37-something K$CAD.
A loaded 323i with both premium and sport packages is 39-something K$CAD.
QUOTE]

When did the TSX become $37k? I have an 06 TSX, I bought last aug. I absolutely, positively still love driving my car. I have the 6mt and I love driving around. Maybe I'm just still relatively young and don't have enough "experience" of driving a luxury, but it has plenty of what I could ask for in a car for the price. The navi is awesome and I use it a lot. It still has the brand new, new car/leather smell in it. I'm not a crazy nut when it comes to it, like I will eat in it if I have to or something, but I take car of it. I have almost 10k miles, so far I did two oil changes(i'm due for one now), rotated tires, waxxed twice. I still love it and would recommend it to anyone. Save the extra money and buy something.

jlukja

[QUOTE=jmty02]Careful... $CAD vs. $USD

Costco

Tires are hardly worth complaining about on the TSX. The OEM rubber on most cars is usually garbage anyway, all-seasons that are cheap for the manufacturer. Most BMW owners report much better handling after replacing their run-flats with dedicated summer tires.

The TSX is a very nice car inside and out and is priced very competitively. Great resale value, generally very reliable and will have better fuel economy, performance wise it won't compare to the BMW but how often will you be driving at the point where you would truly notice the difference that you don't in ordinary daily driving?

Buy the BMW if you plan on getting the BMW warranty with the free maintenance. You're taking a risk otherwise. There isn't really much to brag about regarding the RWD drivetrain unless you drive hard, because most people won't notice and won't care.

Wouldn't try to convince you otherwise because I plan on owning a particular used BMW in the future, because I love the way they handle when you push them... very balanced handling, even older 3-series. But you are rolling the dice reliability wise. Acura's current trend is transmissions (2G CL/TL, 3G TL MT) but it appears the TSX has no major, widespread issues. BMW's weakness by far is electronics.... they try to stuff unnecessary electronic gadgetry in their cars so they have something else to market them with. Has anyone to this day ever praised iDrive for being an ingenious innovation? Didn't think so, yet its still available in new BMWs. I don't find it hard to use myself, but I would prefer buttons, which are much more intuitive.

My brother's 2003 Mini JCW has had BOTH window regulators replaced, and a couple other things I don't remember, but they were all interior mechanical/electronics related, and it ended up a little over $1,000 in repairs. My other brother's '02 X5 has an unreadable HUD. The text is so scrambled you can't read it, and maybe he went to a bunk dealer, but they couldn't fix it. Acquaintance (who I'll say is a Honda fanboy, but still) had a first gen 4.4 V8 X5, he owned a CRX in the past and currently has an NSX and a Honda Pilot. Ask him about his old X5 and he'll just tell you that its the biggest heap of trash he's ever owned.

Depends on where your priorities are. I'm pretty handy with simple stuff and I'll be driving the crap out of my car, so something will break anyway. If you're one of those people who complain about a burnt out map light bulb, don't even bother.

dom

Quality problems at Toyota? Links?

They may be the largest manf. but most of those engines are attached to lawnmowers, snowblowers and motorcycles.

IMO Honda is highly over rated when it comes to engines. Nothing larger than 6 cylinders leaves us with not much of a basis for comparison. And other makes 3.5L V6's are just as if not more powerful while being just as fuel efficient as the Honda 3.5. The same more or less applies to their 4 cylinders

Their new Diesels look great and A-VTEC on paper sounds fantastic. But as it stands, I don't see how they can be so highly regarded.

As for the Indy car series. I take it you don't follow much F1 where BMW has been the 3rd best team all year where Honda has languished at the back? Granted, its difficult to single out engines for BMW's far better performance.

wackura

http://www.automotivedigest.com/view...ticlesID=22493

I think Honda is famed for engines because of how small and efficient they were back in the 70's and 80's during the fuel crisis and amidst gas hogs with crazy new emissions requirements.

Power1Pete

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/autom...ta_engine.html

Overtaxed

I think you posted a pic of a 323i that's more expensive than 39K.

First, you said premium package. It's $4300 K in the 328i coupe I was looking at recently. Is that *that* much cheaper in the 323i?

Second, you said sport package. That's about another 2k. (Those are the upgraded alloys I see)

Third, there's wood trim, another $800 option.

Fourth, that car has the iDrive, which costs another $2-3K

I've seen pics of a non-option 323i (price more in line with TSX in Canada) and test drove a non-leather, non-wood trim 328i. Even the salesperson admitted the interior didn't look upscale.

Personally, I don't care. I really like the 328i (haven't tried the 335i yet). But that's not what a 323i's interior looks like with a price close to that of the TSX.

Overtaxed

I really like the 328i's inline 6 motor. It's fantastic. Period.

BMW driving dynamics = reputed to be the best. Drove great on my test drive for sure.

After my test drive, I got into my TSX and a big grin came across my face again. I love the drive of this car. Except for the wide turning circle (which the RWD BMW does not suffer from), I honestly can't tell much of a difference in everyday driving. In fact, I can't really detect a difference.

I like that Bimmer a lot. I may get it later to replace our other car. But as handling is more important to me than power, I personally would not trade the TSX for an incremental only handling difference, and worse predicted reliability.

I think either car is a great choice though.

EDIT to previous post: that 37K CAN for a TSX Saintor posted is for an automatic TSX. You'd need to add $1600K for the automatic to the other options I listed above in the BMW to compare as well.

waTSX

Nah. I test drove a 325i and while the shifter was good, it was vague, notchy and rubbery compared to the TSX. The Acura shifter is the best I've ever used.

FWIW, I'm going to test drive a MT 328i Saturday and I'll report here how it is. Unless BMW has changed transmissions, which I don't think they have, I'd be willing to be the TSX MT is significantly better. The overall driving dymanics of the Bimmer may be better (and almost certainly is above 8/10th's), but tranny for tranny I think the TSX wins. It's just sweet.

Overtaxed

I went onto BMW Canada website to verify those numbers.

There's no leather in the premium package for the 323i, which is why it's significantly cheaper than the one I was looking at in the 238i coupe.

Also, you can't seem to add leather, wood trim, or navigation to the 323i (but you can to the 328i), at least not on the website.

Is that really an interior pic of a 323i sedan sold in Canada?

grapeguice

[QUOTE=dom]Quality problems at Toyota? Links?

They may be the largest manf. but most of those engines are attached to lawnmowers, snowblowers and motorcycles.

I suppose you could conceivably say that Honda engines are not the best in the world, but to say that they are highly overrated? I don't see how you could sell that. I still believe that Honda engineers know as much about engines as anybody. Maybe you could say that Honda has the edge for smaller four cylinder and under engines and not as much for the larger engines. I'll agree with that.

IMO Honda is highly over rated when it comes to engines. Nothing larger than 6 cylinders leaves us with not much of a basis for comparison. And other makes 3.5L V6's are just as if not more powerful while being just as fuel efficient as the Honda 3.5. The same more or less applies to their 4 cylinders

I think reliability is a valid factor to consider in comparing engines.

Their new Diesels look great and A-VTEC on paper sounds fantastic. But as it stands, I don't see how they can be so highly regarded.

You have a point, here. When consumers vote with their wallets and take their cars out on the road where the tire meets the road is where the evaluation really starts. However, Honda started their operation by building piston rings for Toyota from the very beginning and haven't stopped since in developing their engines to be among the best in the world. They have a hard earned reputation to uphold and I think to bet against them succeeding makes less sense than the alternative.

As for the Indy car series. I take it you don't follow much F1 where BMW has been the 3rd best team all year where Honda has languished at the back? Granted, its difficult to single out engines for BMW's far better performance.

As for Honda lagging behind BMW in Formula One, that's something I didn't know. BMW should get respect for that.

In conclusion, I'm impressed with what both Honda and BMW have done with all of their vehicles. The fact that both manufacture cars and motorcycles is a distinction that not many others have. Speaking of which, in terms of motorcycles, Honda has the clear edge. Their 2007 CBR600RR has a mean engine.

Anyway, that's enough commentary for now. I'm pretty sure that each company pays close attention to what the other does even though their respective markets differ from one country to the next.

grapeguice

I like your summary about the I6 engine. I've never driven a 3 series, but I'm sure it's smooth and powerful with a great soundtrack. Ditto with the handling. BMWs take on the road with authority. Actually, the TSX engine has a nice sound to it when revving as well.

I also agree that the TSX handling is balanced and secure, but the turning circle is a bit of a pain.

Of course the reliability factor goes to the TSX as does features for the money. For pure snob appeal, the BMW has the edge. However, I thought of an analogy related to social popularity in high school. The jocks and the cheerleaders have their day in the sun, but after high school, other groups do better because they're better equipped to deal with what life throws at them instead of just relying on looks and charm. I'm speaking in generalities, but I'm just having fun with the comparison.

dom

lol. I'm sure we could find similar sites for all makes and models including Honda. Have you had a look at the Problems and Fixes section on this board. No car or company is perfect and that site does nothing to prove quality problems at Toyota.

Understand, I'm not a Toyota fan and would actually love to see them be taken down a notch or two. But large scale studies down by CR and JD Power show nothing but good results at Toyota and Honda. Although I guess those surveys can be argued to an extent as well.

wackura

It was big news a few months back, you can google it. There recall rate has been rising at roughly the same time they are over taking GM as the worlds largest auto maker. It's possbile they're expanding too quickly to maintain their famed quality control.