Count Blah

Ok, I have another question. Suppose I'm in 2nd or 3rd and approaching a stop sign (or pulling into a parking spot). I know I'll need to go all the way back down to 1st, but it locks me out of 1st until I'm very nearly stopped. Is this an electronic lockout at a certain speed, or a mechanical thing?

ClutchPerformer

I think that's because you're not effectively engine braking at low RPMs. I'm not talking about just coasting. Good article though.

ClutchPerformer

I'm pretty sure the lockouts are mechanical, but they could be elecronic.

I try not to shift into first while moving (unless you're going REALLY slow--walking speed or less). Basically, if it won't let you get into it the gear, you shouldn't be going into it. At the stop sign, push the clutch pedal in and coast the last few feet until you're stopped. Once you're stopped, then shift into first and get moving. In the parking lot situation, same thing. Push in clutch pedal and coast into the space. I know it's not the best idea to turn corners while not in a gear, but it's low-speed enough that it's not too bad and I haven't seen a better solution other than just stopping altogether and putting it in first again.

Edit: I can't find the R&T issue I was looking at. Maybe it was Automobile......

chrisalberts

Now here's where double clutched rev matched downshifts can really help you out. Basically you can drop down into first at almost any reasonable speed (20 or below) without difficulty, resistance or risk by blipping the throttle enough to match the rpms that you need for that speed in first. It's almost impossible to make it perfectly smooth, but the ability to drop into first, say approaching a turn, or in a parking lot etc. is very useful.

C.

ClutchPerformer

Exactly!

And this is one of the reasons why I wish I was better at double clutching. :'(

drifter

Another way that I start off from an incline that I learned without using the e-brake is to let the clutch out until just before the engagement point (you can easily find that point by testing on flat groud) so that it is not fully depressed. When you have to start moving, get you right foot to the gas pedal and give it a little gas as quickly as possible and releasing the clutch smoothly at the same time. Since your clutch is very close to the engagement point, your car should start moving forward without rolling backwards. Even on 30 degree inclines I usually use this method and usually won't roll back at all, or at most 1-2 inches or so.

I guess for very steep inclines the e-brake method might still be better, but for the most part I do not use the e-brake for incline starts.

Just an alternate method in case anyone is interested and hope that helps

Count Blah

I agree with drifter.. it seems a lot easier to use the clutch to hold your spot on the incline, rather than the e-brake.

chrisalberts

If you're using your clutch (engaged) to hold you on the hill, you're trashing your clutch. I don't think this is what drifter is describing (it may not be what you are - I could be misunderstanding).

The way to do a hill start is to use the brake. Either the regular brake (once you've had plenty practice) or the handbrake.

The trick is to let out the clutch and find the engagement point very quickly (as you lift your right foot off the brake), then to slow down your foot movement and move slowly through the engagement point as you apply gas.

Definitely don't hold it on the clutch for any length of time.


C.

Count Blah

Ok.. I would definitely use the brake while I'm just sitting there. But to get going I can use the clutch as drifter described. Is that trashing the clutch?

fdl

I didnt even know it was possible to hold yourself on a hill with just the cluth (no gas). I woud imagine this would be very bad. Will this work on any type of incline? just curious.

chrisalberts

It's actually quite easy, although depending on the incline you might need gas, but you can hold it at a completely stationary position by just slipping your clutch enough. It's very bad for the clutch, as you surmise.

(for Count Blah
For momentary use it's ok, but with practice you should be able to time the lifting of your left foot (to the engagement point) with the moving of your right foot from brake to gas such that there is zero rolling back and zero clutch slippage.

And yes, in case you're wondering, I am a manual tranny freak who double clutches, rev matches and heels and toes, often when unnecessary just because I enjoy it. That said, I've driven sticks for 18 years and never yet had to replace a clutch.

C.

TSXautoXer

The method is convenient, but it does put more wear on the clutch. I've lived in very hilly countries and using the e-brake method is the best way to prolong clutch life. However, on flatter hills, the method actually save a step or two. The key here is not to overrev your engine while only let out a little clutch.

ClutchPerformer

drifter

I guess I should clarify my method a little bit as it seems to have caused some confusion. chrisalberts is completely correct that if you use your clutch to hold yourself stationary on a hill you will destroy your clutch VERY VERY quickly. What chrisalberts described is correct, and the purpose of the method I use is to find the engagement point as quickly as possible to prevent rollback on inclines.

What I do is that I always use the brake when I'm on the hill. But when I am about to go forward, I release the clutch a little bit until just BEFORE the engagement point so that the clutch is not fully depressed. At this point nothing is slipping as the clutch is about to engage but has not (and my foot is still on the brakes).

Then I quickly move my right foot to the gas pedal to accelerate, and at the same time slowly releasing the clutch the rest of the way. Since the clutch is very close to the engagement point, it should catch quickly and prevent or minimize any rollback.

Therefore with this method you should not have any excessive slipping of the clutch at all. I hope that explains it a bit more clearly.

donutchow

i hit this corner at 35 this weekend and heel-toed into 2nd gear. i'm still dreaming about that amazing shift...

HIP

BTW, this is one of the best threads in a long time as far as information and experience sharing

Here's another question concerning low speed travel. You're in bumper to bumper traffic or moving very slowly through a parking lot, ~5-10mph. From a dead stop, your clutch is fully depressed, you're in 1st gear, you rev to ~2000 or so RPM slowly letting out the clutch and matching revs.

Now you find you aren't moving fast enough to keep it in 1st, so you fully depress the clutch, coast a bit, and while still in 1st gear, you repeat the process of rev matching with the slow speed of the car. This is repeated several times to work your way through traffic or parking lot.

Question; because you are unable to maintain the proper speed to keep the car in 1st without "lugging" it and always working the clutch to get rolling, will this process cause excessive clutch wear?

fdl

I usually just keep it in first untill I have to stop. You can go really really slowly in first. Even second actually. Once I stop..I wait untill there is enough room ahead before I actually go, this way eliminating too much stop and go.

And to answer your question, tHe more you use your clutch the faster it will wear. BUt I doubt you will be doing this too often so I wouldnt worry about it.

DEVO

It will work anywhere but it will do wonders to your clutch. The best way to tackle a steep hill is by using the e-brake or being quick in transitioning from a stop to forward movement.

ClutchPerformer

Yes it will cause excessive clutch wear. Just remember that you can go pretty darn slow in 1st gear with this car as long as you keep a little pressure on the gas to keep it from lugging. The less times you let that clutch pedal up, the better. Seriously. Don't push that pedal back down unless you have to.

fdl mentioned a really good tactic also. Keeping that "buffer" space between you and the car in front of you may allow you to keep rolling along in 1st until the car moves again (saving one clutch slip).

Another technique if you're going REALLY slow (or just inching along) is to rev a bit, then just ease the clutch pedal out a bit past the friction point so that you get some forward momentum and then push the pedal back down and coast forward. Note: DON'T do this multiple times when it's possible to just stay in 1st.

And of course, if you're pointed downhill, just leave it in neutral and let off the brake. No clutch at all.

Count Blah

It's a bit overwhelming, as the list of "things not to do" with the clutch seems to grow and grow.

ClutchPerformer

Yeah, it's rough. You should have seen me when I was learning. Both my parents were teaching me (part of the problem). And everything I did was wrong. I'm surprised that little Golf (and I) survived.

Anyway, a good rule of thumb is that you want to avoid the middle of the clutch pedal travel (from the friction point up). All the way down is fine and all the way up is just as good. Obviously you have to use the middle sometimes, but keep it to a minimum and you'll be fine. The car is made to be driven, so don't be afraid to drive it.

donutchow

no one can teach you to drive stick. you just figure it out. everyone does it differently

DjElucid

maybe we should document this thread, seems like we're almost done completing the bible to driving MT.

rsx_r04

Not on the TSX. You need not press the clutch all the way down.

sauceman

Ahem!

There is a clear warning from Acura to not do this.

jlukja

ClutchPerformer

Thanks again, Sauce.

This guy....

bigwilliestyle

Really?!? That seems weird. I don't have a TSX yet, but how do you know how far to push it then. Obviously you can feel it engage, but...

Do they give a reason for this?

ClutchPerformer

Easy. You press it until you hit the floor.

The warning is about not pressing the pedal halfway.

rsx_r04

I can feel the engagement point WELL before i hit the pedal all the way down.

I talked w/ the dealer and he said so himself that you don't need to press it all the down, but it's not a bad idea, especially if you're a beginner at manual driving.

rsx_r04

And i see no reason for you to condescend me. If i'm wrong, which i may very well be, you should try to prove it.

ClutchPerformer

Done (post 28 and on).

This thread has been handled already. The owners manual is the proof.

I would do this myself, but Sauceman keeps beating me to it. I can't help that.

bigwilliestyle

Oh, duh. For some reason it seemed he was saying the opposite. Thnx.

rsx_r04

Yes, the owners manual is the proof. But keep in mind that the manual is aimed at people who are relatively new at driving standard. (Or for that matter, they're relatively new with their new car, thus it is very simple and basic = easy to read/understand.)

If you've some experience, and know for sure when the engagement point is, then i see no point in pressing the pedal all the way.

That's all. But once again, i admit that it's not a bad idea to press it down all the way. Given that the pedal is feather weigth!!!

sauceman

rsx 04, I understand you're a noob, but still, after having read this complete thread, you should know better than argue with Clutch, given the knowledge he has about manual drivetrains. And if you put him to doubt, you'll have pretty much all the members here who've been around for a while tell you the exact same thing.

When Honda puts something in their driver's manual it's not just fluke, it's to help you avoid taking useless risks. And just when you think you're smarter than the general public they're aiming at, you find yourself getting caught by your overconfidence. I know how it is, I've done the mistake myself over and over.

Now if you want to drive the clutch the way you like it, nothing prevents you from doing it. Just promise you will report it here when you start having mechanical problems so we can all share a good laugh at your expense.

rsx_r04

LOL!

Yes, i'm a noob here at TSX forums, but not at driving manual cars!

Yes, if i buy the TSX and start having problems with the tranny, i'll be sure to post it here.

You really can't argue with the fact that the manual is aimed at a more general public. But i sure hope i'm not getting over confident! :P

ClutchPerformer

ClutchPerformer

You're 21 years old. How experienced can you be?

rsx_r04

I never said i doubt him. Just stated what i feel. I don't think you need to press the clutch pedal all the way down. Also, i do not disagree with the manual; i think manuals are awesome, and there's no fluke that they put whatever they did in the manual.

What i'm trying to get across is that the manual is aimed at people with little or no experience regarding driving manual cars.

Ask anyone with over 5 years of experience w/ driving manual. Do you need to push the clutch pedal all the way in everytime you shift??? You'll get your answer.

sauceman

Okay. Upon Clutch Performer's request, I have moved this very good thread to FAQ. Along with this thread, pertaining to the general subject of Manual Transmitions and it's techniques here are some other memorable and informative threads of value about which Clutch asked we included here:

Engine Braking

Double-Clutching

Manual Tranny ... A Dying Art? This thread provides info on Heel-Toe techniques.