DjElucid

Just brought her home tonight..... it was raining

But it's home!!!

My first manual car, any advice? I'm trying to shift before 4k, is that good? I'll let her loose at 1000 miles most likely.

phirenze

DJ,

You probably won't be able to wait anyway, but you can let her loose before 1000 mi, I ripped mine at 450 miles. Also, my first car with MT too. I was given lots of advice but the only thing worth passing on is that you should just keep trying and working on it and then one day it will just click! And when it does...it's a beautiful thing.

Enjoy it-
phirenze

gomez_regina

The first MT I ever drove was my Honda Civic Special Edition Sedan...learned how to drive it 1 hour before I picked up the car! A buddy of mine had a Civic sedan and taught me to drive his...and I haven't looked back!

If this is the first MT you've ever driven or owned, you've picked a great car for it! Honda/Acura has one of the best, easiest to drive MT's available! I've driven others (not just GM's, Chryslers and other Japanese...BMW's, Benzs and such) and none of them even come close!

Once you go stick, you'll never go back!

finalheaven

Unless you drive in LA traffic....

AdamC

Congrats on buying a MT and learning how to drive stick!

bowersan

Just wait for the (inevitable) first time you grind the gears.. The sound makes you feel like someone is stabbing a knife into you.

My advice- remember, shifting is meant to take a bit of time. Go slowly, and softly, ALWAYS- even if you are accelerating hard.

J.

TSXautoXer

I once was lured into the dark side (AT...what was I thinking) and finally came back to MT...everything feels right again...
Shift smoothly but swiftly. Match engine RPM to speed and gear selection. And finally learn the advance MT technique as in double clutching downshift as well as heel and toe shifting. That's where the fun begins.....

phirenze

can someone please explain the double clutch downshift? I must be an idiot because I've read about it online before and had no idea what was going on when I tried to do it myself.

DjElucid

not sure if I can explain it right...but I'll try.

You press the clutch to take it out of gear then release, rev up your RPMs, and then press the clutch again to put it in your next gear so your car pulls forward because you're RPMs are higher than they would have been.

Sound right?

ClutchPerformer

I wouldn't recommend trying to double clutch until you're more experienced driving a manual. It's kinda difficult to do well (and the concepts behind it are even more difficult to understand). Give yourself about a month or two to get used to driving stick and then start double clutching and heel-toeing.

Let's get this straight at least: double clutching is for DOWNshifting. You can do it while upshifting too, but it's not very useful in cars w/ synchros. Only truck drivers double clutch upshifts. Let's say you're in 4th, you want to DS to 3rd. Here's the process:

Push the clutch pedal down.
Put the shifter in neutral.
Release clutch pedal.
Blip the gas pedal so that RPMs climb to desired level (what they should be in 3rd gear at your speed--rev matching).
Push the clutch pedal down.
Put the shifter in 3rd.
Release clutch pedal.

Sounds simple, but all this has to happen fairly quickly or your road speed will start falling and make it harder to rev match. The car shouldn't pull forward or backward at all because when done right, everything (including syncros/layshaft) are in sync. That's the point of double clutching. It's a downshift that doesn't wear anything.

Jason

I don't understand CP. Doesn't it take too long to execute something like that? Why not just give it gas before you let out the clutch on the simple downshift?

fdl

No hes right, you have to let off the clutch pedal and blip the gas while its in neutral. This is because the layshaft is not connected to the engine while the clutch is in.

Visorboy

Thanks for the detail explanation Clutch.
I did this before on my previous Hondas, but didn't know whether it was harming the car or not.
I think with the TSX, there is a tendency for the RPM's to not drop as fast. Maybe it's the drive-by-wire?

ClutchPerformer

Here's what I recommend to those just starting with MTs. In order: Learn how start from a stop smoothly. Learn how to upshift smoothly. (most people learn these two in a couple hours). Learn to start on a moderate hill without stalling or peeling out or rolling back excessively. Next, learn your gears and begin to get a sense of what RPM you're doing in a given gear at a given road speed (this could take a while). You should feel pretty comfortable with MT now. Use this knowledge to learn a rev matched downshift (spend some time with this, rev matching will serve you well). Learn to use the downshift to slow yourself without using the brakes. You don't have to DO this all the time, but you should know how. Remember: brake pads ARE cheaper than clutch plates, but if you're good at rev matching, there's no clutch wear at all. By now you should be extremely comfortable with your MT. Now, use all this to start double clutching. Then try heel-toeing (a three-pedal operation).

All that is much easier if you have someone to actually show you what to do and correct your mistakes if you make one. But I can try to explain in more detail if it'll help someone. Good luck and enjoy your MTs.

fdl

Ya, something to do with emissions.

ClutchPerformer

No problem. I love this stuff.

Double clutching is actually GREAT for your MT. Like I said, the whole point of the technique is that there's zero wear on the clutch or synchros. You're right about the RPM dropping thing. I don't know what the reasoning for that was (b/c with DBW, they could have made RPMs drop at any rate they wanted), but it's actually better for double clutching b/c you're allowed a little more time to get things done.

ClutchPerformer

I'm glad you asked that question!

What you described is the rev matched downshift. Assuming you match RPMs perfectly, there's zero wear on your clutch, but your synchros still have to do a lot of work to get the layshaft to spin at the same speed as your output shaft. I don't know if this'll make sense, but everything in "front" of the driveshafts (output) wants to slow down (from friction), and in a downshift, you're trying to speed it back up again. You can do this on the engine easily by blipping the throttle, but there's no active control for spinning the layshaft up to speed.

So double clutching does take longer. And it's much harder to actually do right. Plus it's not absolutely necessary. That's why most people don't do it. But it doea save the synchros some work.

Jason

OK CP, MT guru, here's a really stupid basic question that might hurt my street cred: how do you upshift smoothly? Do you gradually let out the clutch or do it really fast? Do you let out clutch and THEN give gas, or do you give gas and THEN let out the clutch?

DEVO

if you are double clutching in the TSX then you are a moron. double clutching is not required on all modern day cars. in the past you double clutched to save the transmission by matching the revs of the enginge to the gears.

with synchros, this is no longer required.

DEVO

it's all about matching the gears to the correct rpm. when you upshift you are going from a higher rpm to a lower rpm because you are going to a taller gear. now, how do you know at what rpm to switch gears into... you can mathematically figure it out or just get experience at it.

so say you are going 60mph in 3rd gear at 6000 rpms...

now, what is the rpm at 60mph in 4th gear... let's say 4000 rpms...

so to get a perfect shift from 3rd to 4th you have to time the car's rpm to the gear... so as you see the rpms drop from 6000 to 4000 (happens fairly quickly) so switch gears and let out the clutch as it nears 4000 rpms.


now the reverse... say you want to downshift

so you are in 4th gear at 60mph and 4000 rpms....

you need to push in the clutch, press the gas pedal to rev the engine to 6000 rpms, switch to 3rd (can do this at the same time you are revving engine), let out clutch as you hit 6000 rpms. and you will have a smooth shift.

ClutchPerformer

I'm definitely no GURU... I just happen to know how this stuff works. I actually need more practice myself. I still can't double clutch right...

But to answer your question: if you match the RPMs exactly, it doesn't matter how fast/slow you let the clutch pedal out. Assuming you get it perfectly, the engine and transmission input (where the clutch is) will be turning at exactly the same speed.

Obviously, it's hard to rev match perfectly on every shift, so you have to slow down a bit and give the clutch some time to compensate for your "mistake". It's easier to FEEL the jerkiness in the lower gears (1-2, 2-3), so for the benefit of smoothness, I usually take a little more time letting the clutch pedal out on those two shifts. Then on the higher gears I let it out quickly (this is why it's so bad when I miss 6th :P).

I'm pretty sure that when I'm not paying attention to my upshift, I tend to let the clutch pedal out almost fully before getting back on the gas. When I'm really trying to be smooth and rev match (like when my parents are in the car), I let off the gas to allow RPMs to fall while shifting and then get back on it just enough to hold RPMs where I want them, then let out the clutch pedal and give more gas to accelerate. If you give too much gas before letting out the clutch pedal, you'll wear the clutch plates unnecessarily.

DjElucid

Just to double check I'm understanding this right.

When upshifting, the shift should be fairly quick so your RPMs don't drop too low. Clutch should be always pressed and released softly?

I don't usually press the clutch down all the way, usually halfway down and then release to where it engages. Is that safe or should I press down all the way?

ClutchPerformer

Whoa!

Press the clutch all the way down during all shifting operations. I'm glad you said that!

ClutchPerformer

Sorry. I forgot to answer your other questions. Here goes:

When upshifting, it doesn't have to be done quickly. If you want to do it slower, you have to get back on the gas earlier (to get the same quality shift) b/c the RPMs have fallen more. Does that make sense?

You can press the clutch pedal down as quickly/hard as you want. Releasing the pedal is where you use finesse. Practice makes perfect.

phingerz

Devo said it...we've got synchros. we don't need to double clutch.

I'm no expert either (but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night), but heel toe is probably the best first 'advanced' skill to learn. In fact, I just had my first lesson yesterday (which makes me dangerous). It really does help when you have someone show you the ropes. It sounds a lot like the double clutch process but you don't double clutch... hmm.

You heal toe when you want to take a corner as hard as possible without having any adverse effects on the chassis of the car. ie. no lurching forward/back if done right.

It goes something like:

1) clutch in
2) brake to slow the car down a bit
3) blip the gas to rev match the next gear
4) choose next gear
5) clutch out.

1, 2, & 3 happen almost at the same time, which is why it's called heel toeing... left foot-clutch, right foot heel-brake, right foot toe-gas.

This is the way I understand it:
When you start to put the clutch in and start to brake into the turn, the car will begin to lean forward (into the turn). When you blip the gas and select the next gear, you've hopefully matched the two up perfectly... so that when you let the clutch out, you pull out of the turn as smooth as can be.

I'm looking forward to corrections and clarifications to help me understand this better too.

ClutchPerformer

Synchros are not indestructible, gentlemen. I'll post this one more time:The synchros have to do that job. If you overwork them, they will fail. Double clutching isn't necessary of course, but your synchros will thank you in the long run.

Edit: Ever wonder why it takes a bit of a tug to put the shifter in second at high speed? Try it. You don't have to let the clutch pedal out. In fact, I don't recommend it.

AdamC

Agreed. Let the synchros do the work it is intended for.
With all due respect guys, forget about doubleclutching if you love your car.
You are not racing on a track to shave off that 0.1 seconds.
DC takes a lot of practice and practice means breaking things.
But I say go for it if you are cool with grinding your gears and messing up your tranny.
The synchro is designed to withstand normal wear and tear from gear shifts.
Please take this advice from a man with 13 years of MT experience.
And YES I know how to doubleclutch but quit doing that for many years for obvious reasons.

Count Blah

Ok, I've got a question about driving more fuel efficiently. I'm under the assumption that you want the revs low (2-3k range), so you bump into a higher gear to do that.

But then when you're downshifting to slow down, it's driving the revs higher even without giving it any gas. While the engine's spinning faster (in a lower gear to slow the car down), is it burning more gas? (Even without my foot on the gas pedal?) The alternative is to essentially put it in neutral and use the brake as necessary to slow down, which would seem to use almost zero gas.


This is basically a question of how the engine works. If it's spinning at, say, 5k rpm due to the forward momentum, is it continuing to pull in fuel and burn it? Or is the momentum enough to keep it spinning that fast and it's not burning any additional fuel?

ClutchPerformer

Ah, great question! The answer is the second thing you said. By intuition, it seems like you would burn more gas downshifting b/c the revs are higher, but you have to consider what keeps them there. Let's think about fuel injectors: modern FIs are constant flow devices which are either ON or OFF (no in between setting). How much fuel you get is only a function of how long they're open.

Now here's how it works: when you take your foot off the gas, the fuel injectors shut down (this is the essential piece of information). Then, it's only the forward momentum of the car that keeps the engine turning. So when you engine brake, you're using no fuel at all (this is the real advantage of it, not just because you don't have to ride the brakes). To contrast, when you push the clutch in and hold it or just drop it into neutral, there's no momentum to keep pushing against the internal friction of the engine. So the revs drop until the engine gets to idle RPM. And what keeps the engine from dropping below idle and cutting off? You guessed it: the fuel injectors turn on again. Just enough to keep the engine turning.

So actually, when you're in neutral you're using slightly more gas (some) than you would while engine braking (none).

BTW, this same issue was addressed in the Tech Tidbits section of Road and Track magazine fairly recently (June - August issue, don't remember which offhand). Check that out if you can.

fdl

Excellent querstion. I was just wondering the same thing actually. Hopefully someone can give us a proper answer.

Count Blah

Great. Thanks for the answer... that's good to know!

ClutchPerformer

No problem. I'll find out which R&T issue that was when I get home tonight.

teombe

Clutch, I work with people who design and program engine controllers for a living (in fact, over 60% of the cars on the planet use our stuff), and I can assure you that when you take your foot off the gas, the injectors do NOT stop injecting. The fuel pulses simply occur at a lower rate. Yes, you're saving gas, but no, your consumption is not zero.

teombe

http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h43.pdf

Okay.. just did some homework on the subject. Clutch is partially right about fuel cutoff, but it does not occur everytime you lift your foot from the gas pedal. It is done only during a certain RPM range (mid to high), and is done primarily to pass emissions.

Jason

I would just like to add that I watched my trip computer while engine braking and I see no drop in average miles per gallon. What I've noticed is the MPG bar drops when I press in the gas irregardless of my RPMs. When I let my foot off the gas and coast at low RPMs or downshift (engine brake), the bar jumps to 40-50 MPG. When I push in the pedal, it drops to 10-20 MPG. It's actually pretty interesting to watch my fuel consumption in action. Once the feeling of this new car starts to wear off (read: currently driving the hell out of it), I'm gonna challenge myself to see just how high my mileage can be.

chrisalberts

If it's average mpg then a single incidence of engine braking isn't going to affect the average much. If you have a car with instant mpg readout usually when you take your foot off the gas it goes up to like 80 or 100 (used to in our Audi S4). I have always heard that most fuel injected cars have "fuel cut off on overrun" and mostly cut off the fuel when the throttle is completely let off.

I also want to weigh in agreeing with CP's posts. While it isn't necessary to double clutch, it doesn't do any harm, and tends to cause less drivetrain shunt. It's also a neat skill. You can get most of the benefits by just rev matching on downshift without double clutching though.

How many of you know that with proper rev matching you can perform smooth up and down shifts without ever touching your clutch or grinding the gears.

As for heel and toeing, it can be difficult on the street unless you are prone to aggressive braking, and once again it's unnecessary but a cool skill to have.

C.

Jason

Yeah I was referring to the instant MPG reading.

accsuperstar

this is my first MT car so i am a big n00b when it comes to MT. i have practiced in my frineds car before and i can get around to normal places. however my biggest concern is when i get stopped on a hill or a slope area because of a red light. what do i do then? my friend told me i could try using the parking break. how exactly does that work? do i put it on for a bit then rev the engine slightly while slowlyg releaseing the clutch and then releasing the break in the process? i am scared that if i use the normal break and try to go to the accelerator immediately that i will fall back and hit someone. i still take a while to get going after a stop. any help would be appreciate1

right now i just avoid hills at all costs

TSXautoXer

When you stopped at a hill:
1. Pull parking brake.
2. Proceed with normal take off procedure, but do it much slower this time. Try to feel the bite point of the clutch.
3. Since the parking brake is applied, you can let the clutch engage a little more without making the car moving forward. You will feel that the car is actually trying to go forward (the rear suspension compressed lowering the rear of the car). At this point, release the parking brake. You should be moving ahead.

Be careful about holding up the revs. Try to compensate the throttle progressively.

Anyways, I am not that good at explaining stuff, hope this will help you.

TSXautoXer

For all the previous posts, I'll have to say, rev matching is the most important thing when driving an MT car. I don't do double-cluth downshift exactly how it should be, but I did match the rev. The reason being, any lurching of the car when the car is already at it's handling limit is hazardous. It'll cause either understeer or oversteer. Same explaination goes to heel and toe technique, and is more so because it is a technique used to attack corners.

Maybe a little more explaination on heel and toe here. Please don't take the name of the technique literally. You don't have to use exactly your heel and your toe to perform the technique. The name comes from the odd positioning pedals on some old Ferrari (I think) race cars, which has the throttle in the center. Just understand the idea of heel and toe is enough. Upon braking point before a corner, apply brake and clutch. Since you're now moving at a slower speed, and probably want to be able to accelerate fast after the corner, a downshift is required. So now blip the throttle to match rev to the lower gear selection and let go of the clutch QUICKLY, while still applying brakes. And if one downshift is not enough (let's say you're entering a hairpin after a long straight), just repeat the technique and downshift one or more time. Try to downshift sequentially, don't skip any gears.

This can be done by any parts of your right foot (left foot should stay with cluth only in this technique), of your desire. In my case, I am quite tall and have a big foot, it is quite impossible to twist my foot sometimes. So, I use side of my foot to blip the throttle.

For people who want to look at professional drivers performing these techniques, I have some video files. Let me know and maybe I can upload it to you.