sauceman

Last weekend, when I was ranting about Toyota's quality ( http://www.acura-tsx.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12963 ), I was refering to piston speed to argue that the K24A2 was a much better built engine than Toyota Matrix's 2ZZ-GE.

Well that got me wondering what the piston speed of all high-revving engines were, and after some research, here is what I've found. A list of engines listed from the highest to lower piston speeds:

1. Honda S2000:
Engine Code: F20C1
Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.31"
Redline: 9000rpm
Piston Speed: 4965 Ft/min

2. Lamborghini Gallardo
Engine Code: N/A
Bore/Stroke: 3.25" X 3.65"
Redline: 8000rpm
Piston Speed: 4866.67 Ft/min

3. Acura Integra Type R
Engine Code: B18C5
Bore/Stroke: 3.19" X 3.43"
Redline: 8400rpm
Piston Speed: 4802 Ft/min

4. BMW M3 (Germany)
Engine Code: S54
Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.58"
Redline: 8000rpm
Piston Speed: 4773.33 Ft/min

5. Honda S2000 2004
Engine Code: F22C
Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.57"
Redline: 8000rpm
Piston Speed: 4760 Ft/min

6. Honda Integra Type R (JDM)
Engine Code: K20A
Bore/Stroke: 3.39" X 3.39"
Redline: 8400rpm
Piston Speed: 4746 Ft/min

7. Acura Integra GSR 2001
Engine Code: B18C
Bore/Stroke: 3.19" X 3.43"
Redline: 8200rpm
Piston Speed: 4687.67 Ft/min

8. Saleen S7
Engine Code: N/A
Bore/Stroke: 4.13" X 4.00"
Redline: 7000rpm
Piston Speed: 4666.67 Ft/min

9. Acura TSX
Engine Code: K24A2
Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.90"
Redline: 7100rpm
Piston Speed: 4615 Ft/min

10. Suzuki Hayabusa Sport Prototype
Engine Code: W701
Bore/Stroke: 3.19" X 2.48"
Redline: 11000rpm
Piston Speed: 4546.67 Ft/min

11. Honda Civic Type R
Engine Code: B16B
Bore/Stroke: 3.19" X 3.03"
Redline: 9000rpm
Piston Speed: 4545 Ft/min

12. Toyota Celica GTS / Matrix XRS 2001
Engine Code: 2ZZ-GE
Bore/Stroke: 3.23" X 3.35"
Redline: 8100rpm
Piston Speed: 4522.5 Ft/min

13. Honda Prelude Type S (JDM)
Engine Code: H22A
Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.57"
Redline: 7500rpm
Piston Speed: 4462.5 Ft/min

14. Acura RSX Type S
Engine Code: K20A2
Bore/Stroke: 3.38" X 3.38"
Redline: 7900rpm
Piston Speed: 4450.33 Ft/min

15. Ferrari 360 Modena (incl. Challenge, Stradale, etc)
Engine Code: N/A
Bore/Stroke: 3.35" X 3.11"
Redline: 8500rpm
Piston Speed: 4405.83 Ft/min

16. Lamborghini Murcielago
Engine Code: N/A
Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.42"
Redline: 7600rpm
Piston Speed: 4332 Ft/min

17. McLaren F1
Engine Code: N/A (BMW V12)
Bore/Stroke: 3.39" X 3.43"
Redline: 7500rpm
Piston Speed: 4287.5 Ft/min

18. Renault Clio 2.0 RS 2003
Engine Code: F4R
Bore/Stroke: 3.26" X 3.66"
Redline: 7000rpm
Piston Speed: 4270 Ft/min

19. Porsche 911 GT3 RS 2004
Engine Code: N/A
Bore/Stroke: 3.94" X 3.01"
Redline: 8500rpm
Piston Speed: 4264.17 Ft/min

20. Pagani Zonda C12S
Engine Code: M120 7.3 AMG
Bore/Stroke: 3.6" X 3.64"
Redline: 7000rpm
Piston Speed: 4246.67 Ft/min

21. Peugeot 206RC 2004
Engine Code: EW10 J4 S
Bore/Stroke: 3.35" X 3.46"
Redline: 7300rpm
Piston Speed: 4209.67 Ft/min

22. Porsche Carrera GT
Engine Code: N/A
Bore/Stroke: 3.86" X 2.99"
Redline: 8400rpm
Piston Speed: 4186 Ft/min

23. Acura NSX-T
Engine Code: C32B
Bore/Stroke: 3.66" X 3.07"
Redline: 8000rpm
Piston Speed: 4093.33 Ft/min

24. BMW M5 2002
Engine Code: S62
Bore/Stroke: 3.70" X 3.50"
Redline: 7000rpm
Piston Speed: 4083.33 Ft/min

25. BMW M5 E60
Engine Code: S65 (?)
Bore/Stroke: 3.62" X 2.96"
Redline: 8250rpm
Piston Speed: 4070 Ft/min

26. Nissan Primera W20V
Engine Code: N/A
Bore/Stroke: 3.39" X 3.39"
Redline: 7200rpm
Piston Speed: 4068 Ft/min

27. Ferrari Enzo
Engine Code: F140
Bore/Stroke: 3.62" X 2.96"
Redline: 8000rpm
Piston Speed: 3946.67 Ft/min

28. Ferrari 575 Maranello
Engine Code: 650 V21
Bore/Stroke: 3.50" X 3.03"
Redline: 7750rpm
Piston Speed: 3913.75 Ft/min

And the list goes on...

Now this is for production engines. When you compare it to race engines, here's what happens:

BMW Williams FW25 (2003)
Engine Code: P83
Bore/Stroke: Believed to be 3.90" X 1.54"
Max RPM: 19200rpm
Piston Speed: 7874.02 Ft/min



Another engine I would have loved to post about but I just couldn't find all the information is the Caterham Super 7 R500 Evolution: It has an MG series K engine, developped by Judd (well-known for their endurance V10s in FIA GT and LeMans racing). This 1998cc develops a whopping 250bhp at 8000rpm and an absolutely amazing 190ft-lb at 4000rpm!! You got it all: Amazing torque for a 2 liter, screamer-type power, and a very, very large powerband. All this on a 470kg (1034lbs) roadster. Gives you a 0-60 in 3.62secs...

sauceman

So you see 6 Honda engines out of the top 10, and 9 Honda engines out of the top 15. With the TSX ranking 9th. Not bad at all...

Just tells about Honda engineering.

fdl

very interesting stats.

so what has stopped honda from getting the piston speed of the K24 up higher, to say at least gsr levels? its a much new engine, etc. should this not have been acheivable?

sauceman

I think it's probably a rod/stoke ratio problem. The crank has such a large stroke that when the crank starts pushing the piston from 270°, the rod is probably at a very sharp angle, and it may be where the restriction is at. Notice that all engines but the Saleen's have much shorter strokes than the K24A2, even the GSR/TypeR.

Still though, it's not very far behind.

waTSX

I think I read somewhere on this board that the designer of the K24 engine (can't remember his name; Japanese fellow, prominent Honda designer who developed the initial I4's for Honda) wants to get the countershaft (?) speed for future TSX's up to 18,000 RPM, from the current 14,000 RPM!

The article said that's F1 territory. Pretty amazing.

BTW, the Super 7 is badass!

iamhomin

Hate to ask, but what exactly is a K-type engine?

sauceman

It's a series of engine blocks, from which they basically build up variants of engines. ie: 2.0 liter i-VTEC= K20A, K20A1, A2, A3

waTSX

Here's the link that talks about Sakuji Arai's intentions with future incarnations of the K24 engine. And it was balance shaft revs, not counter shaft like I said earlier:

http://cars.ign.com/articles/503/503355p1.html

fdl

yup, and there is more to it than that.

Here is the full quote:

gocubsgo55

::chrp, chrp, chrp::

hmm, the toyota b***hes are keeping quiet. where are you guys? i mean i was totally neutral, but the facts have been submitted, and you have nothing to say?! cmon guys, admit your screw-up... (now i wait for one or both of them to attack me, any defence from you guys would be great )

sauceman

The balance shafts have to spin backwards at twice the crank speed to counter the vibrations emanating from the mobile parts in the engine. Right now it spins at 14200rpm because the redline on the engine is half of that: 7100rpm.

So he is saying he wants to increase this to 18000rpm, so the engine would be spinning at 9000rpm!!!

The piston speeds would reach 5850 Ft/min, definitely more than the F20C. They would have to start using exotic materials to make it happen. How they could keep the big stroker together at that speed is beyond me.

Poindexter

Well, I never considered Toyota being in the performance car market. I always thought they like to stay under the radar and focus on the older age groups through long term quality. I mean look at their current car line up. . . Camry, Avalon, Celica, Corolla, Matrix. . .

9000RPM!!! that's like a motorcycle engine (not those Harley engines). . . Sweet, Honda's gonna get more Vroommmmm. . .

fdl

while more high output i4's are enticing, i really wish honda would design a nice lightweight i6.

dom

x 1000

dabuda

interesting to see all the hondas/acuras up there

sauceman

Most definitely.

ClutchPerformer

It's also because the k24's got more mass at the end of the rod (the piston) than the Teg's b18. Look at the difference in bore size (TSX being bigger, of course). That equals a bigger piston with more mass. More mass means its inertia pulls on the con rod harder and limits the redline. There's many factors, but stroke and piston size are the main things that keep us from a safe 8000 RPM.

jiggaman

vrooom vroom

sauceman

And for that, the Saleen's engine is truely remarkable, although there is no doubt in my mind they're at another level with forged internals.

gocubsgo55

fdl, the idea is very tempting, but the japanese aren't very good at making these engines. Well, actually Toyota isn't. Just remember the 2JZ engine of the Supra that required much maintanance (excuse the spelling). I forgot what it was but a friend who worships the Supra told me when I was upset about missing out on one (:'() that a certain part of the engine (piston, piston rod, head gasket ) needed change every two years. If I'm wrong don't put it on me, I'm easily convinced. Then again, Honda isn't Toyota, but if I were them (the largest manufacturer of engines in the world), I'd improve on what I have. Hey, how about a 220 HP RSX-S, 240 HP TSX, and 290 HP TL. Kidding of course, but it is all possible.

Oh, forgot about the 450 HP IMA SH-AWD RL-R and 550 HP NSX-R .

AND a 350 HP MDX-R...

ClutchPerformer

I wish they would make a V8 (with cylinder deactivation). You can flame me now...

dom

I wish they would make a SMG style tranny and make it the only tranny offering in their entire car line

Ok, I'll stop now.

sauceman

Poor Clutch, it's your turn this week...

ClutchPerformer

Yeah, yeah....

Now all I need is a Helico Avatar to commemorate it.

ilitig8

FYI the engine code for the E46 M3 is S54, the M54 is a much more "pedestrian" engine.

Vandy

sauceman

Thanks. Corrected now.

gilboman

do some homework on the 2JZ pls. :o the supra engine is one of the most durable engines; strong too.

fast1

Honda does make a lightweight V-6... they put it in the NSX with 290hp.

Power1Pete

inline 6 NOT = V-6

fast1

It's a V-6 in the NSX. I know what an I-6 is- just stating what's out there already.

biker

You see, gilbo can be supportive of non BMW cars (gotta be RWD tho) - or is he just pinch hitting for sicklex?

firedc5

fastest engine piston speeds
1. Honda S2000:
Engine Code: F20C1
Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.31"
Redline: 9000rpm
Piston Speed: 4965 Ft/min

2. Lamborghini Gallardo
Engine Code: N/A
Bore/Stroke: 3.25" X 3.65"
Redline: 8000rpm
Piston Speed: 4866.67 Ft/min

3. Acura Integra Type R
Engine Code: B18C5
Bore/Stroke: 3.19" X 3.43"
Redline: 8400rpm
Piston Speed: 4802 Ft/min

4. BMW M3 (Germany)
Engine Code: M54 (?)
Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.58"
Redline: 8000rpm
Piston Speed: 4773.33 Ft/min

5. Honda S2000 2004
Engine Code: F22C
Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.57"
Redline: 8000rpm
Piston Speed: 4760 Ft/min

6. Honda Integra Type R (JDM)
Engine Code: K20A
Bore/Stroke: 3.39" X 3.39"
Redline: 8400rpm
Piston Speed: 4746 Ft/min

7. Acura Integra GSR 2001
Engine Code: B18C
Bore/Stroke: 3.19" X 3.43"
Redline: 8200rpm
Piston Speed: 4687.67 Ft/min

8. Saleen S7
Engine Code: N/A
Bore/Stroke: 4.13" X 4.00"
Redline: 7000rpm
Piston Speed: 4666.67 Ft/min

9. Acura TSX
Engine Code: K24A2
Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.90"
Redline: 7100rpm
Piston Speed: 4615 Ft/min

10. Suzuki Hayabusa Sport Prototype
Engine Code: W701
Bore/Stroke: 3.19" X 2.48"
Redline: 11000rpm
Piston Speed: 4546.67 Ft/min

11. Honda Civic Type R
Engine Code: B16B
Bore/Stroke: 3.19" X 3.03"
Redline: 9000rpm
Piston Speed: 4545 Ft/min

12. Toyota Celica GTS / Matrix XRS 2001
Engine Code: 2ZZ-GE
Bore/Stroke: 3.23" X 3.35"
Redline: 8100rpm
Piston Speed: 4522.5 Ft/min

13. Honda Prelude Type S (JDM)
Engine Code: H22A
Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.57"
Redline: 7500rpm
Piston Speed: 4462.5 Ft/min

14. Acura RSX Type S
Engine Code: K20A2
Bore/Stroke: 3.38" X 3.38"
Redline: 7900rpm
Piston Speed: 4450.33 Ft/min

15. Ferrari 360 Modena (incl. Challenge, Stradale, etc)
Engine Code: N/A
Bore/Stroke: 3.35" X 3.11"
Redline: 8500rpm
Piston Speed: 4405.83 Ft/min

16. Lamborghini Murcielago
Engine Code: N/A
Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.42"
Redline: 7600rpm
Piston Speed: 4332 Ft/min

17. McLaren F1
Engine Code: N/A (BMW V12)
Bore/Stroke: 3.39" X 3.43"
Redline: 7500rpm
Piston Speed: 4287.5 Ft/min

18. Renault Clio 2.0 RS 2003
Engine Code: F4R
Bore/Stroke: 3.26" X 3.66"
Redline: 7000rpm
Piston Speed: 4270 Ft/min

19. Porsche 911 GT3 RS 2004
Engine Code: N/A
Bore/Stroke: 3.94" X 3.01"
Redline: 8500rpm
Piston Speed: 4264.17 Ft/min

20. Pagani Zonda C12S
Engine Code: M120 7.3 AMG
Bore/Stroke: 3.6" X 3.64"
Redline: 7000rpm
Piston Speed: 4246.67 Ft/min

21. Peugeot 206RC 2004
Engine Code: EW10 J4 S
Bore/Stroke: 3.35" X 3.46"
Redline: 7300rpm
Piston Speed: 4209.67 Ft/min

22. Porsche Carrera GT
Engine Code: N/A
Bore/Stroke: 3.86" X 2.99"
Redline: 8400rpm
Piston Speed: 4186 Ft/min

23. Acura NSX-T
Engine Code: C32B
Bore/Stroke: 3.66" X 3.07"
Redline: 8000rpm
Piston Speed: 4093.33 Ft/min

24. BMW M5 2002
Engine Code: S62
Bore/Stroke: 3.70" X 3.50"
Redline: 7000rpm
Piston Speed: 4083.33 Ft/min

25. BMW M5 E60
Engine Code: S65 (?)
Bore/Stroke: 3.62" X 2.96"
Redline: 8250rpm
Piston Speed: 4070 Ft/min

26. Nissan Primera W20V
Engine Code: N/A
Bore/Stroke: 3.39" X 3.39"
Redline: 7200rpm
Piston Speed: 4068 Ft/min

27. Ferrari Enzo
Engine Code: F140
Bore/Stroke: 3.62" X 2.96"
Redline: 8000rpm
Piston Speed: 3946.67 Ft/min

28. Ferrari 575 Maranello
Engine Code: 650 V21
Bore/Stroke: 3.50" X 3.03"
Redline: 7750rpm
Piston Speed: 3913.75 Ft/min

firedc5

so this means that the rsx with hondata has a piston speed of 4844.7 and the tsx with hondata is 4940(gulp!!) which ranks 2nd.

the equation is (redline*stroke*2)/12

matelot

okay so what does this mean ? "faster piston speeds" == ?

(better at hi-revving ?)

Xtremespeed2102

imagine it at fuel cut off...

sauceman

Wow firedc5, I'm in complete awe at all the research you must have done to get those numbers down! I'll bet it took you at least a complete evening to do all that. Oh wait! Maybe you just copied/pasted this thread over?

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13223

matelot

firedc5

aww crap i didnt see that thread, mostly because i dont surf this board, my best friend with a tsx is always talking about piston speeds so thats why i posted it.

TSXey

Anybody have insight into what we make of the data? Does it mean anything important? I haven't thought of high piston speed as necessarily good or bad.

Rod ratio is usually a more significant factor, I wonder if we looked at rod ratio for all those engines what we'd see.

TSXey

me edit: I just read that other link above, didn't read it before. It mentions rod ratio but nothing more is discussed.