sauceman

WATCH OUT, THIS IS A LONG READ

Hey folks.

It's a source of worries to some, it's an obsession to others, you want the best deal for your TSX. You want it badly, and it's not the easiest or the funnest event of the year when you have to negotiate.

You can enter the dealership with a few weapons of your own that will help counter professionnal salespeople's tactics, help you get the best of them, and make your negotiating experience, if not a fun one, at least a basis for bragging about your brand new car.

With the crucial help of a good friend, Rotarybzzz from Los Angeles, and a few online sites as well, here is a thread with a few tips on how to optimise your next negotiations for the brand new Acura you are longing for.

Bringing Together And Fine-Tuning Your Weapons

The first thing you should realize is that cars are a demand-type item. First in line will pay the most when new models come out. Generally, there is a gentleman's agreement among the dealerships. The higher-end brands anyway, for example, Acura, BMW, etc. They have pretty much decided to "hold the line" when it comes to negotiating prices. That's why many of you shouldn't be upset with some dealers "not wanting to deal" on the new TSX, because that is what the General Manager has dictated. Best plan: wait a little while... a few months at least after a new car gets introduced to the market. You will see some dealers faltering on holding the line. Early on, the most you can expect is getting a few freebies... wheel-locks, cargo net... the cheap stuff. But you will still pay MSRP (or thereabouts). Why? Because they can get the price they’re asking from the next guy waiting in line after you.


So you've realized the best time to go is after a few months after the release, at least. There are two better periods of the year that can be considered as prime buying time: 1. The two last weeks of December, when everyone is shopping gifts for Christmas, leaving new car dealer lots void of customers, motivating dealers to cut costs, and break year end sales records. There is also the period between July and October when in general dealers are making way for new year models. Secret factory-to-dealer incentives can get pretty important. Many dealers will choose to renounce to a part of that incentive to get some volume going.

Now, let’s narrow down to a specific time of the month.

Many of you have heard that the best time to buy a car is "the end of the month", right? Well, let me spell it out for you. It isn't the end of the month per se... it is the 30th. Period. The 30th. Not the 29th. Not the 31st. It’s the 30th. The selling cycle for ALL dealerships ends the 30th of the month. A salesman's / finance guy's / general manager's / district manager's pay check is cut based off volume between the end of the preceding month and the 30th. Thus the 30th is a powerful day indeed... We will discuss more on this later.
You must also remember that dealerships are competing with each other for incentives and bonuses from the Mother Manufacturer (a.k.a. Honda, Toyota, Ford etc). That's why some dealerships can afford to do things with prices that others won't touch. They're making money in doing volume (moving metal as I call it) not in the money made per vehicle. So, find the volume dealer in your area and go on the 30th.
Now you know that waiting until the end of the month is a good ploy. Well, here's another one:

So you've decided to buy NEW. First thing you can do besides going on the 30th of the month is scan the newspapers in the classifieds. Look for the dealers advertising a "set price" for a new car / cars. This can be the big page ads or they can be just a small column. scan, pan and look for a set advertised price.

Now the thing with these ads is that most cars and most "set-prices" just about suck. But sometimes you can find what dealers call "the ad car". The "ad car" is a draw car that dealers will use as a loss leader to draw people into the store (especially during the holidays). They want to push deals and are willing to take a much smaller profit (or even a loss) on this car to get people in the door. This is exactly why I say to go to the volume dealer in your area, simply because the smaller dealers making less money per car don’t do these things! Think about it: which dealership can afford to do this? The one with 500 cars per month or 50?

Anyway, you can use the "ad car ad" by 1) buying the actual car or 2) use it as a counter at another dealership. Some might say "those ad cars don't exist" or "those aren't real cars" but, they are.

This is something you'll want to pull out after discussing the terms of the deal. It’s kind of like fishing for their best price then...BAM...show them the best price you found in the newspaper. This really works with Honda/Acura. They always have lots of advertising deals. You want to find the best price and then go to the place that says "we will beat any price". One caution though: You must be sure the model numbers match up for the car you’re talking about. For example, in the case of Acura a "415" meant an Integra with a stick and cloth and a "446" meant an Integra with leather and an automatic (I might be wrong on the exact numbers, but you see the point). These numbers are almost always printed at the bottom of the ad.

In terms of actually bargaining with the dealers, many times people think that the dealership always want the customer to pay cash out-the-door today and not finance. That is not completely correct. The dealership actually wants you (with at least fair credit) to finance your car because this is another revenue stream to make money on. Not really a whole lot, but a good enough percent.

Making Contact With The Dealer

You can adopt a few strategies in the way you’ll make the first contact with your dealer: 1) You can meet him in person, 2) You can establish contact by phone, and you can 3) make a fax attack (or e-mail as well)

Let’s start by the last option: The Fax Attack. This method consists of engaging numerous dealers in a bidding contest against one another for your clientele. Fax each manager you have chosen a complete description of the car model with equipments you want and ask them that they respond you with their best price quote. Enter round two by asking each dealer who will beat the best price you have been given round one. Some will better the offer, some will bail out. Repeat the process until you have one dealer sticking out with your price.

This method has the advantage of being not particularly time consuming while imposing the work of negotiating to the dealer, while you almost sit back and look at the results go. It’s next best to buying a car on e-bay.

Second option: The Phone Call. When calling the dealer, ask for the sales manager. Then you can ask something along the lines of, “I’m ready to offer you 24,800$ for your SSM TSX 6MT non-navi, and not a nickel more. If it’s ok with you, I’ll be there in a half hour with a certified check”. (Obviously, the financing preparation will have to be arranged with your bank beforehand). The dealer will either say no, or make a counter-offer.

Then again, it is a pretty straight-forward method, and it gives you the advantage of not dealing face-to-face, giving you control over the situation.

You can also follow the most common and maybe most arduous method, but also the one where you can get more creative, meeting face to face with your dealer.
Your first visit should not be the time when you make an offer, especially if you are not close to the 30th. Simply ask for the “out-the-door” price, namely the price + sales tax + all fees and charges. When you get back home, set yourself a target price at which you’ll buy the car. For this you’ll have to be pretty well informed of the best deals out there, and a site like this one will be pretty useful, as there are always members who’ll be willing to tell you the “great deal” they made with a specific car model.

Remember that any time where you feel pressure or feel you are not controlling the situation, you can walk away and give yourself some time to think. The dealer is not the boss, you are. It can be a pretty powerful way for you to get better terms offered as well.

You should make it clear that you do not wish to discuss financing right away. There are three phases of negotiation, and financing is the last one. If you get pressured about this issue, simply say that money will not be an issue, and if you have a good credit score at hand, you can even show him, but not more. Phase 1 of the negotiation is dealing the actual car. Phase 2, if you are trading in, is dealing the trade-in. Then, when you have agreed with the first two phases, enter phase 3, which is negotiating your financing.

On the next visit, walk in the dealership with a folder containing quotes you amassed from other dealers. Once they see your lower new car price quotes from other dealers (assuming you went with the phone method, or partially with the fax method), you've stopped dealer sales tactics dead in their tracks. The deal will proceed on your terms, not theirs. Don’t walk into a new car dealership without knowing how much you can buy your future car for. When the car dealer quotes you a price you can say "Why should I pay your price when this dealer is quoting me the same TSX for $1500 less?" Then you show them your new car price quotes in "The Folder". Salespeople in general fear "The Folder", because they know you did your homework. They rely on car buyers who don't research their car buying. Do this as long as you actually have something to show for in that folder!
When you feel you finally got the most out of your sales rep, you could still get a better deal. You can do two things: If you still have a few days before you hit the 30th, leave the dealership and tell them you need some more thinking, you were expecting a little better (hopefully your set price or better yet), etc. If they have met your price objective, you can give it a shot at a little better, depending on how much of a rebate they’ve already consented to you. There you must be careful not to come out as being unreasonable and unrealistic, you’ll lose credibility.

Return on your 3rd visit on the 30th, and check in with your sales person (if he hasn’t already called you), and see if he has something yet better to offer you. Be at all times calm and polite! Use the British method of “wait and see”. You English folks have an advantage over Latino people. You are cool, calm and slow to show any response. A typical English person will drive a Latino crazy. You say nothing, and he’ll hopefully start scrambling to get a response from you. If you wait long enough, he’ll engage in giving you all the leeway he has, maybe even more, who knows? If you are a Latino buying from an English person, try to beat him at his play, you will have the chance to de-stabilize him. This negotiation technique is valid for just about any type of selling, by the way.

So then again, your sales rep has given you all he’s got. It’s time to get a little more ruthless, and call in the sales manager. Tell the sales manager you have a discrepancy between both of your offers. Ask him what he can do about it. Remember this is the 30th, and though this will not automatically yield you more, it just might work on a the last day to make the numbers.

There are do’s, and I’ve shown a few of them, but there are many more I’m sure that I don’t know of. Negotiation is limited only by creativity.But there are definite don’t do’s. Here goes.

The Don’t Do’s

- No use lying about what the condition of your trade-in car is, they’ll check it, and if they find out your trying to scam them, you’ll never get a good price from them.
- Don’t put down a deposit until you are sure you are actually buying a car. If you try and renegotiate after the deposit has been done, you will not get much more than an angry salesperson on your back. You wouldn’t want someone to do it to you, so don’t do it yourself.
- Don't lie about your income or debt load. They run your credit report to verify it.
- Don't make an unreasonable offer. You’ll get dismissed quickly. You need to know what invoice is to base your offer on. It’s not to say you can’t get the car under invoice, but you don’t want to be offering ridiculously low either.
- Don't spout off how the salesperson is making $3000 on the deal. If you're getting a super low deal, the salesperson is probably getting $100 max.
- Don't be rude when it comes to the low rebate or the ultra low APR, you either get one or the other.

My Ally, My Enemy

Many times, people automatically believe they will automatically get a good deal if they have a family member or friend working at the dealership (sales or service).
I cannot agree with this most of the time. It really depends on what your buying and how you work it, and here's why:
One philosophy that is encountered many times throughout dealers is that some dealers, especially lower-end marques (for example: Ford, GMC, Toyota), sometimes hire anybody with a pulse. Basically, those dealers will hire that person, even if that person has no potential to sell because they not only hire the individual, they hire that persons' network of friends, family and ex-coworkers.
Why? Here's what I mean....
You have unemployed "Ed" who starts working for Chevy. Being the bumbling idiot he is (and given the nature of the car business) he sells 7 cars the two months he was working there. He was a wash-out. However if you broke those 7 cars sales down into who bought them, it went like this:
- 3 to his immediate family (uncle Jeb, uncle Bob and his brother John)
- 2 to good friends
- 2 to friends of friends
All these people were under the understanding that they would get a deal. Did they? Well maybe. But what really happened was that the dealership was paying this guy (essentially) minimum wage to steer 7 people who bought 7 cars from their lot. The dealership made money on the financing, on the deal and put 7 cars toward their incentive volume from the mother manufacturer. Not only that, the dealership has the potential to have 7 service-relationships with 7 new owners, 7 new patrons who are probably going to go to that dealership for service (per warranty tom-foolery) for at least 3 years to come to do oil changes, adjustments, tune-ups, you name it.

At the same time, there is a limit as to just what the dealership will do for the employee. Talking high-end brands, a deal as a typical Acura salesman would be $100 over invoice on any Acura (except the "hot cars" like the TL). However, that is much worst than anyone could get by doing the newspaper routine. Take for example Cerritos Acura in SoCal 4 years ago: New $15,900 Integra LS were growing on trees. I don't remember the exact differential but it was like $1700 for the same car. That is a big lump of cash for a sub-20,000$ car. (You might wonder how the hell I know about what’s going on in SoCal: remember this is a thread written with a heavy contribution of a friend from over there.)
So you see car dealing and getting a “good deal" is very, very relative and is all about perception. You get a good deal if you think you’re getting a good deal. So, be careful before you let your friend-dealer, friend-dealership worker convince you that he can "get you a good deal". Do your internet research and scan all the area newspapers before you do anything.


This being said, these are only things that Rotarybzzz and I know. Rotarybzzz has worked at Cerritos Acura, so he was able to provide me with valuable information to complete this writeup.

I have also collected informations from www.carbuyingtips.com , www.intellichoice.com as well as www.village.com .

Good luck, and post away your own tricks if you please, it is for the enrichment of us all here.

Oracle, feel free to correct us if we are not right about everything, but remember if you are doing it to put yourself on the other side of the desk!

Lestat

Thanks for the read. That was very informative... :P

justinjsw

Sounds about right to me.

Laz

There is no agreement among dealers at all, ever, nada, zip zilch never was never will be!!! Dealers sell cars for WHAT THEY CAN....... The reason you pay sticker for the top end brands is because YOU WILL PAY IT... Dealers only get X amount of cars in a month no matter what ( excluding promotions and bonus). If they know they sell X amount of car Y a month but only receive 3/4 of that number. There is no need for the dealer to come down. If they tell you no someone else will buy it.. Each dealer knows color, trim leave and how many of each model they will get in for the next month... They know what they are getting in August at the end of June for example. That's the only reason people pay what they do for cars...

toddstuh

Very good info Sauceman !

But as for anything, the price paid is based upon the fundamentals of Keynesian economics and that is supply and demand.

If you're looking to purchase a Ford F-150, these tips are very useful due to the large supply. As for the case of a recently introduced car such as the TSX, which isn't as plentiful, and high in demand. The equation changes slightly. It's still possible to get deals on these cars but less likely so...as stated, due to the limited availability the next guy in line will probably pay MSRP. There are still people out there that WILL pay full sticker for a car.
Now with the TL competing with the TSX at dealershps, you should have a much better chance at finding dealerships more willing to negotiate. As the info had stated, find a high volume dealership, which will have more cars allocated/avbl and go for it !

gt0279a

Another angle at getting the best deal is working with a fleet manager.

Fleet managers are usually from large "volume dealers" that sell cars to large companies(5000+ employees), and the fleet service is offered as a benefit to the company and it's employees. These are dealers that own sell several car brands, so the fleet office is usually seperate from acura, honda or any other car lot.

There are also other fleet companies example: Columbia Fleet that are seperate from dealers and provide service to small and large companies.

Even if you don't work for a big company, you may be able to get in touch with a fleet manager by using a "vehicle buying service" (try searching on the internet or your yellow pages) You may have to pay a a fee, but if your getting a car at invoice price, so $100-$200 isn't bad.

Typically you can get a car at invoice price. Why? They are mostly interested in 3 things:
1. Time
2. Volume
3. Referrals

Their hope is that by giving you a good deal, you will be a repeat customer as well as tell your friends / coworkers about it.

Another good thing about working with a fleet manager, is they network with other dealers across the US. This helps them find particular colors, or get a good deal on a used car if the market is softer in other parts of the country.

Downside to working with the fleet manager:

1. Trade ins - if your getting wholesale on the new car, expect wholesale on your trade-in
2. OEM Accessories - Don't expect any discounts, in fact they are usually more expensive
3. Financing - can be just as shady as a regular dealer
4. Hot cars - even the fleet manger may have a hard time giving you a good price on a hot car.

Hope this helps.

iamhomin

Nice and informative. Great post sauceman.

sauceman

Thanks guys.

gt0279a, that is a very interesting bit of information you just posted. I didn't know about that.

toddsduh, you are quite right about what you are saying. As long as demand is high, it will get harder to get as good a drop. But there are areas where the supply is more than enough. Many parts of Canada are like this. My own dealer, which is not a volume dealer had well over 15 TSXs parked in the lot, waiting for an owner.

These principles are pretty universal. Depending upon the carmake and their philosophy, you can succeed more or less at getting a good price reduction. Obviously, if you show up at a GM dealrship, before you even say anything, you'll get a larger rebate on a GM car there than you'll ever hope to get with a real clever negotiation on a TSX. But then again, you get what you pay for as well...

jlukja

Great post. I'd give you rep points but I just gave you some recently and have to spread it around. This should be a sticky.

DEVO

I've never bought a car for MSRP (sticker) and I've bought each car in their "prime" time. You just need to prepare yourself to walk. I've bought an S2000 (just after they came out) for 30K when they were selling for way over sticker... and I wasn't even trying. I bought my hybrid when they was a waiting list for 2k under sticker. My only tactic was to leave if I didn't think it was going my way. Also, not saying anything and taking your time in your response is the best tactic ever. The only problem is that most of the sales people are really nice so being a "jerk" is hard. So I avoided that by not showing any emotions one way or the other. Don't make it personal.

As for cars that are not on the "hot" list. Always walk in with a copy of the invoice price.

kenbiddulph

Another key, is to go to the dealership 1 hour before their closing time. They will want to go home, but will at the same time be obligated to try and deal. Take your time, play it cool and you'll end up with a steal

I did it with my TL.


- Ken (former Honda salesman)

dom

I bought my TSX a few days after the release and the owner of the dealership was infactic that all Toronto area dealers had agreed not to sell below MSRP. I checked with another dealer and got the same story, not asking, that was the line. Maybe they were lying I don't know but both went on and on about how they had a meeting and expected high demand for the TSX and were to hold the line on pricing.

In the end I got 1K off so

Junkster

Acura actually has all their dealers to agree never to advertise anything lower then the MSRP, unless some universal rebate/financing is going on. I heard this is due to small market of Acuras and the necessity for Acura to help all the dealerships survive (for franchise fees, of course).

I've heard they also have a line across the board, not sure how true this is, but I've heard.

Junkster, who thinks a grand off from MSRP is a must these days

jlukja

Yep, I've never seen any Acura ads with a price lower than MSRP.

gt0279a

The lease deals Acura posts in the current offers section have discounts off the MSRP as "Dealer Participation"

i.e., in order to get the advertised price on the RL Navi Lease, $499/mo for 42 months, you need to put down $2999 and the dealer needs to discount the MSRP by $4404.70

Even though they aren't advertising $4400 off MSRP like American Car Companys, you can get that with this particular lease and if the dealer participates in the deal.

plin6356

Fellow TSX'ers,

The wife and I just bought a TSX yesterday (Meteor Silver, 5-spd Auto, Non-Navi) through a purchasing agent in L.A. Area. We paid $25,308 + tax, licenses & fees. It was both time and money saving. The agent charges $300-$500 for his fees. His business name is L.A. Auto Consulting. The only reason I'm giving him a plug is because this has been the least traumatic/painful/exhausting/frustrating car buying experience I've ever had out of a handful of purchases I've made. Look him up if you are in the market.

Now only if someone can recommend me a good dentist!

texas arsenal

We looked at the TSX about 8 months ago. The dealership we went to would only come off the sticker 350.00. We waited and started checking prices again and found a dealership that was more flexible. Keep in mind there are only 3 Acura dealerships in the DFW metroplex. So we went in on the 29th of the month. Seemed waiting a little while then purchasing at the end of the month really helped.

My exprience has been that an Acura dealer isnt much on the whole "haggling" process. Truthfully, their product is such that they dont have to be. Now that I have one sitting in the garage Im glad they operate that way to maintain the integerty of the brand.

texas arsenal

We also went in at the end of the day. They were waiting for us to drive off to shut the place down. You could tell they were ready to go. Hell, I would be too. But with that in mind I didnt feel rushed. I had to go back the next day to finish some paperwork and the salesman sat down with me for over an hour and walked me thru everything from turning on the radio to using road side assistance.

n3ok318

iTrader: (1)

Wait, so the car must be on the lot to apply this strategy?

sauceman

Not necessarily. I applied some of the strategies for mine, and they didn't have it on the lot.

Once you've agreed on a certain model, if they don't have it themselves, they'll either trade it in for another car, or they'll just order it. They might try and give you a hard time about it, but it shouldn't ultimately prevent them from approving a good deal to you.

Of course, if they have 15 cars sitting there since a few months and they don't move, then that would obviously work to your advantage, but you can still get good deals in pretty much any situation.

n3ok318

iTrader: (1)

i dont get it, so if they dont have ones in lot why would they negotiate? I wont pay a penny til the day i get my car right? that wont add incentives of their year record .. would it?

biker

It still adds to their bottom line - the supply/demand equation still holds for ordered cars, it's just that it might work better for a car on the lot.

n3ok318

iTrader: (1)

i see, thank you. I guess i gotta do my homework in couple weeks

PixelHarmony

I did the lazy man's faxing by just emailing dealers. I emailed 15 some dealers and found a guy that gave me the TSX $27k out the door.

sauceman

[Mr. Burns] Excellent.... [/Mr.Burns]

slo007

I see them on the RSX on holidays.

dandubu

I'm looking to get a TSX soon and this string is helpful. I've started getting bids by email, but dealers are reticent to do that. The Auto brokerage service that someone mentioned in LA sounds interesting. I found one on the web at http://www.autopurchaseconsulting.com/six.html
Does anyone have any experience with these folks? I get the feeling that the market in the pacific northwest for the TSX is pretty tight, and I'm doubtful that I can recoup a broker's fees in savings below MSRP on the car. I'd looking to get a 2005 5AT No Nav TSX for under $26k. Is this realistic?

psx

I got mine for 25,300 + tax (5%) and doc fee ($100). They also threw in free wheel locks ($50) and a few other accessories at cost (no install fees).