wstagner@yahoo.com

That's a good question.
I guess my best answer is that:

1)Would had to have purchased at least 1 more, maybe 2 hydes to do the perfs.

2)Also applies to the backs of the seats.

We'll see how the perfs hold up over the next few years.
As long as I know there's a good shop around to do this kind of work, I can get this done later....I guess.

No one ever sits in the back seat except the Beagle and me when we're pickin up the mother-in-law.

wstagner@yahoo.com

The COLOR is an exact match. Only thing a little different is that some of the sections have a little more or less grain.
But the touch/feel is much better than vinyl and variations in texture is what the leather is all about.

There are approximately 4 hydes needed for the TSX, to do the whole thing, no vinyl.

At retail, would be $1200.00
Halve that using as much vinyl as Acura does.

Buying leather in the Qtys that Acura does they're paying at least 1/2 of retail.

808havok_tsx

the tsx leather is the junkest leather i've ever seen. the perforated sections in the driver's and passenger's side in my car is showing serious signs of wear and it seems "brittle" to the touch. two small flaps have ripped on the driver's seat. my car is a CPO and i have no idea if the previous owner took care of the seats but i've been using meg's and armor all's leather products every 2 weeks or so and cannot for the life of me restore the seats. the rear seats look better only because its hardly used. i showed it the service advisor yesterday and he said its not covered under warranty and that the signs of wear on my seats are normal for tsx's. if the problem becomes a lot worse, he then said an american honda rep would have to look at it to determine if they'll replace the leather.

btw, the leather in my previous toyota was immaculate after 7 years of use. meg's and armor all products kept the leather soft, supple, and clean.

LukeaTron

Armor All is kind of a garbage product if you ask me. All I've ever found it good for is making various materials greasy.

I really can't speak highly enough about the Lexol products on the other hand. You might want to give that a try. The leather drinks that stuff up.

808havok_tsx

armor all wipes have worked wonders for me with no greasiness. i use it on my leather sofa in the house too. the wipes worked fine for my toyota too.

the meguiar wipes are super rich and have lots of moisture but the seats don't soak it in at all. in fact, the meg's wipes does leave behind a greasy film. i've been meaning to experiement with lexol. hopefully it makes the leather better.

kyotousa

Leather will actually have more wrinkle & seem brittle to touch while leatherate or vinyl doesn't...

kyotousa

btw my Toyota Avalon was all vinyl...I doubt your Toyota has actual leather

808havok_tsx

i paid over $3,000 for the premium package back in 2001 for my highlander which upgraded the interior to leather. based on what i saw, i'd say all the perforated areas were leather. my friend also has an avalon and i'm pretty sure the seats are leather. maybe the side bolsters were vinyl like the tsx? if you have proof that the seats are not leather, i'd like to know so i can sue for misrepresentation and fraud.

kyotousa

lol I got a 1999 Avalon XLS...it's not leather. You can sue if you want. I hope you win too

wstagner@yahoo.com

My my....what an intresting thread this has become. And to think it all started with a simple poke test.


I will certainly be watchin the perf sections for wear.

I remember having some kind of problem with the leather on my 87 or 92 Legend. Acura covered it under warranty...after having it "inspected" by a regional guy.

Celtic FC

Not for me, but as long as you're happy, who cares?

wstagner@yahoo.com

Sorry, not familiar with the term "happy". Satisfied maybe.

LukeaTron

It's been my experience that a little poking can cause quite a reaction.

808havok_tsx

again, i ask for proof. you are claiming that toyota uses ALL vinyl. so you're saying that the perforated seats are also vinyl? you mean to tell me that i bought the premium package with jbl sound system and VINYL seats? when in fact they sold the package as "leather"?

it is my understanding that toyota uses split cow hide with a man made finish (read: top coated or protected - can make leather feel like slippery vinyl). i don't know what years and what models that's true for, but like the tsx, at least the seating surfaces are "leather".

my "sue" comment was sarcasm btw.

kyotousa

I said my avalon uses vinyl so I doubt your highlander use real leather.....
Yes, I suspect you bought a vinyl seat....maybe you should drive your highlander to my place and we can check it out and see if it's vinyl or not.

perforated surface doesn't mean it's real leather, Mercedes use perforated surface all the time and it's known that they are leatherate.

kyotousa

If your leather seat doesn't wrinkle then it's most likely vinyl.
Because BMW, Porsche's Napa leather is hard to maintain as in they wrinkles.

TS_eXpeed

I knew the door panels were vinyl but I'm not/wasn't sure about other areas of the car. I might have to try this ingenious 'poke' test.

wstagner@yahoo.com

I may be old, but I try the "poke" test on almost everything.

TSX door panels ARE vinyl. Accord with leather seats model door panels are leather. They pass the poke test.

Mercedes "stock" leather is in the your butt/your back ONLY, at least the under 40k cars. When I purchased my c240 in 2002, I payed $1600 to have ALL leather including the map pockets.

Whereever I poked it it passed.

Do I need to post a vidcap of the poke test?
I can post one of my seats only or one with the wife IN the seats.

kyotousa

sure...video is worth more than thousand pics...

wstagner@yahoo.com

Ok....will post this weekend.

Outside light is best.

davidspalding

How much mileage your car has, and if it's under warranty, will help. Look at the other threads (I think they're in the wash 'n wax section, but not all). I've read at least 3-4 Acurazine users post that they had seats repaired/replaced under a "good will" warranty decision. The seats should rip apart or tear < 5 years IMHO.

davidspalding

Depends on what you're pokin', fella. We got a few minors on these forums.

davidspalding

Oops

wstagner@yahoo.com

I used to be a miner.
Lived in WV in a former life.

wstagner@yahoo.com

Ok...poke test videos now posted:

http://www.wstagner.com/band/tsx/

poketest1, poketest2

They are Quicktime MOV files each approx 1mb.

I think you'll "get the picture".

808havok_tsx

i bought it CPO in march 08. its a 07 model. was originally bought in june 07. mileage at pickup was 8110, right now at about 11500. my service advisor said what i have is consistent with what other tsx users have... he said should it get worse, we then can see if an american honda rep can take a look at it to see if they'll replace it.

davidspalding

I'm calling then. With only a year's service, the seats ought not rip, period, IMPO. Mine's a 2006, entered service 3/06, 54,000 miles currently, second owner, and NO RIPPING.

I don't seem to find any "leather care" notes in the OM (maybe a separate manual in the wallet?), so even if your previous owner didn't condition the seats at all, just kept them clean, you shouldn't have to "restore" them with regular conditioner on a CPO vehicle. I wouldn't over condition them, either. But the "normal wear" argument really sounds like evasion. What upscale car needs to have the leather seats repaired yearly?

Again, search the forums, I've read at least 2-3 people who had seats repaired under "good will" when they came apart prematurely.

On the preventative side, make sure you're not sliding in and out with metal keys or other things on your pants.

wstagner@yahoo.com

Vinyl can tear also.

The TSX vinyl removed from my car was thinner than the leather. Only thing that might hold vinyl together is the gauze glued to its underside.

I volunteer to be the TSX leather "eggspurt" for as long as we have our TSXs and I haven't assumed room temp.

Our 8 year old Honda accord had leather upholstery (factory mostly) and we only conditioned it once/year. No drying, cracking, or tearing.

No way leather should fall apart unless it's torn by a key or something.

LukeaTron

My parchment seat had some discoloration on the side facing the door when I got it CPO. The PO had obviously been sliding on in and out every time. The dealer replaced the whole skin on the bottom part of the seat without me even saying anything.

Let's see some pictures of this "normal wear and tear".

808havok_tsx

you'll notice a remarkable difference in the way the leather wrinkles between the rest of the seats vs. section with tear. passenger seat poke test was done as a point of reference.

here are the little tears indicated by red circle:


poke test of the front section of driver's seat. notice the "cracking" look of middle section indicated by red oval:


poke test of middle section of driver's seat with tears. notice the difference in wrinkling:


poke test of middle section of passenger's seat:


poke test of front section of passenger seat:


thoughts?

LukeaTron

My seats have those little "tears" too. They don't show up nearly as much though since it's parchment. The leather used in these cars is only dyed on the surface so when the surface gets splits like that in it, the undyed leather shows through.

I don't think there's much to be done about it. If you look closely at the tears they probably don't go all the way through the leather. At least the ones in my car don't. If you apply a conditioner regularly it will keep the splits to a minimum.

808havok_tsx

my issue is that the leather on the middle portion of the driver's seat is visibly different than the rest of the leather. you can see that it wrinkles differently. it looks more brittle and dry. and yes, it feels different too. perhaps that's not coming across so obviously in the pix...

LukeaTron

I think that's just the nature of leather. It grows on a cow. It's not perfectly uniform.

808havok_tsx

nah man. i've had leather in an older mercedes and a newer toyota. i know bad leather when i see it. even my mom who has really bad eyesight commented that middle section seems bad - and i didn't even say anything to point it out! you can believe what you want, i'll believe what my eyes tell me... as you can see in the poke test for all the other sections, the wrinkling is actually consistent except the middle driver's seat. i've already made my case with the service advisor so we'll see if i get anywhere should the problem get worse.

LukeaTron

It's definitely different. I'm just doubtful that Acura is going to do anything about it at this point. If it were to get worse, I would think you might have a case.

wstagner@yahoo.com

It's possible that your seats could have been covered using 2 different hydes with different grain structure.

In the 2 cars we had redone, that was the case.

Take a look at this pic:

http://www.wstagner.com/band/tsx/P1030064.JPG

then this one:

http://www.wstagner.com/band/tsx/P1030065.JPG

The side of the seat back has grain that more closely matches the stock leather. The side of the seat bottom has a barely discernable grain. I like this better, but they didn't have enough leather from THAT hyde for the seat sides. Lucky for me they had enough of the same colour left over from a Lexus job to use or I would have had to spend another $300.

Based on my experience with all our other leather cars the parts that gets the MOST wear are the non-perf sections on the seat bottom and seat back due to sliding in/out of the car.

808havok_tsx

that's my thinking too. i'm thinking they used leather that was not treated or cured properly maybe? the middle section almost looks like plastic or cheap vinyl...
that's what the service advisor said and he did say they replaced a couple of side bolsters because the stitching got frayed and whatnot. i actually get in/out of the car vs. slide in/out. if i slide in/out, the tears would probably get worse...

wstagner@yahoo.com

Only place I've ever seen frayed stitching was on the top of my 92 Legend backseat where the leather/vinyl had dried out and stressed the stitching.

This is my 1st experienced with perf seating so I'll be watching closely.

I will Gliptone condition every few months.

davidspalding

The driver's outer side bolster (where my left fanny cheek would sit, if I were bigger) is more worn, wrinkled than any others. Guess what? it's the wear and tear from a driver sitting there much more than a passenger sits in their seat. Similar for you, I'd guess. The driver's seat is getting more wear.

So ... I condition it regularly, thoroughly ... and use the leftover wipes/rag/whatever for the passenger seat and the few other pieces. I find Maguiar's (however they spell it) Gold wipes from Target work fine.

wstagner@yahoo.com

Yes, and use what works for you.
The Gliptone is a fine product for me.
Good conditioner and adds the fragrance back to the leather.