Downshifting vs. Braking
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I recently had this discussion with a friend and I wanted to hear some other opinions (came to the right place for an opinion, huh?)
For those of you who are manual transmission drivers (and AT folks who would also like to participate), which of the following methods do you use to slow down: shift into neutral and use the brake until you come to a rest, or downshift nearly every gear, letting the engine help slow down your car.
This discussion was briefly broached in another thread, but quickly abandoned. The arguments touched on price of new brakes vs. price of new clutch.
For me, I downshift ALL the time. I cycle through the gears tapping the brakes very lightly, and many times use ONLY the downshifts to slow me down to about 5-10 mph. I have never had a problem with this technique, and I feel I have a lot more control using this method.
Thoughts and opinions??
TEIGER
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For those of you who are manual transmission drivers (and AT folks who would also like to participate), which of the following methods do you use to slow down: shift into neutral and use the brake until you come to a rest, or downshift nearly every gear, letting the engine help slow down your car.
This discussion was briefly broached in another thread, but quickly abandoned. The arguments touched on price of new brakes vs. price of new clutch.
For me, I downshift ALL the time. I cycle through the gears tapping the brakes very lightly, and many times use ONLY the downshifts to slow me down to about 5-10 mph. I have never had a problem with this technique, and I feel I have a lot more control using this method.
Thoughts and opinions??
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TEIGER
#2
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I "downshift nearly every gear, letting the engine help slow down your car" even doing this I go through brakes pretty quickly, so I would hate to what it would be like if I only used my brakes. I think this is a much more controled way to slow the car down and I dont really think it is excessive wear on the clutch and more a transmission issue, which I think is a non-issue.
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I'm a braker.
That's what I learned from early on. It's always seemed simpler and easier on the engine, the tranny, and on mileage.
What I do most, especially for red lights, is shift into nuetral and coast a while. Then I brake.
The only time I downshift is to accelerate, especially out of a turn.
That's what I learned from early on. It's always seemed simpler and easier on the engine, the tranny, and on mileage.
What I do most, especially for red lights, is shift into nuetral and coast a while. Then I brake.
The only time I downshift is to accelerate, especially out of a turn.
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Having never owned a MT car, the SS on my AT is my first consistent experience with anything like this. I sometimes do my "braking" mainly by downshifting, and it feels so clever.
But I've wondered what kind of trade-off it is, in terms of "wear and tear" of transmission vs. wear and tear on brakes. Not that I ever worried about wear and tear on the brakes, it's just part of what happens. But I just don't know what this does to the AT, and I wonder a little.
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#7
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I always downshift nearly all the gears and try to heel-and-toe through the gears. That way the brakes last much longer, and the up-revving minimises the wear on the clutch.
It is also more fuel-efficient to downshift, because then the throttle is closed, whereas the throttle is open slightly for idle if you brake in neutral, making it use slightly more gas. But that is only minimal.
It is also more fuel-efficient to downshift, because then the throttle is closed, whereas the throttle is open slightly for idle if you brake in neutral, making it use slightly more gas. But that is only minimal.
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#8
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Originally posted by JaTe
i usually shift to neutral and brake.
remember...brake pads are cheaper to replace than an engine
i usually shift to neutral and brake.
remember...brake pads are cheaper to replace than an engine
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I don't understand. Perhaps, because of increased use, you might see increased wear on the clutch, but knowing the quality of Honda engines, your statement is confusing.
sauceman, I haven't quite got the heel-and-toe down yet. Do you have a link that describes it in depth?
TEIGER
#9
i try to rev match when downshifting... but i'm heavy on the brakes when I need to be... otherwise it's engine braking... which I kept to a minimum. Meaning I brake while in gear... then shift to a lower gear without a lot of engine braking... almost as if I were coasting... and when I know that I coming to a complete stop I do coast... helps out the gas mileage.
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It depends. If I'm just going around town, I'll shove it in neutral and brake in. But, If I'm coming in "hot" and trying to beat the light around a corner or something I downshift...I need every ounce of braking power without overloading the brakes.
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If I'm coming to a stop, I shift to neutral and use the brakes only. If I'm just slowing down temporarily I will downshift and do a little bit of engine braking, keeping the revs up so I'm ready to accelerate again.
In general I like the logic of the "brakes pads are cheaper than clutches" line of reasoning. However, given that Hondas typically have very robust engines & clutches and lousy brake rotors I'm not sure if that is the best strategy in this case.
In general I like the logic of the "brakes pads are cheaper than clutches" line of reasoning. However, given that Hondas typically have very robust engines & clutches and lousy brake rotors I'm not sure if that is the best strategy in this case.
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#16
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I am not an expert. However, I have a good friend who has been a Service Advisor for a Honda dealership in Dallas for 10 years now. He always told me that brakes are much less expensive than tranny work.
I would not risk it personally even though I used the technique in a previous Civic and Accord that I owned.
I would not risk it personally even though I used the technique in a previous Civic and Accord that I owned.
#17
I recall hearing this discussion on NPR's Car Talk a few years ago, for whatever their opinions are worth. Basically, they concluded that downshifting is better on relatively steep grades, but that braking is better in normal road conditions.
Here's a couple of quick links to their past Q&A discussions on this topic:
http://cartalk.cars.com/Columns/Arch...tember/07.html
http://cartalk.cars.com/Columns/Arch...tember/13.html
Here's a couple of quick links to their past Q&A discussions on this topic:
http://cartalk.cars.com/Columns/Arch...tember/07.html
http://cartalk.cars.com/Columns/Arch...tember/13.html
#18
I generally downshift within reason. Obviously if you have to slow down fast, you're goint to use the brakes - the situation determines the method. But I do not just throw it in neutral and brake as a matter of routine, except when going from 5 mph to 0 mph, the last few feet before stopping. Downshifting through the gears to an almost-stop is somewhat of an art and takes some practice, but it's fun and rewarding when done correctly, and also gives you the opportunity, if conditions change in front of you (such as the car in front of you changes lanes, exits, gets out of the way) to immediately accelerate and upshift without missing a beat - this is not nearly as seamless if you're in neutral applying the brakes or even coasting, as you then must re-engage in the proper gear for your speed and rpm's. As for the tranny vs. brake pads (i.e., which are cheaper to replace) discussion, that to me is not a factor. Downshifting if done properly shouldn't damage or wear the clutch inordinately any more than regular shifting - that's what it's made to do. And in my experience (with my 1993 Honda Accord), Honda clutches are real troupers - with that car, I sold the car at 240,000 miles with the original clutch.
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Originally posted by mrdoug
I generally downshift within reason.....
I generally downshift within reason.....
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Maybe we need a poll on this too, so Larch can tell us how biased it is!
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TEIGER
#20
As the AT car slows, the SS will downshift back to 3 automatically if you don't shift it yourself. However, the shift points are at speeds where there isn't much engine breaking anyways. It then pops back to 1 when stopped, so there is no engine breaking in 1 and 2 at all.
#21
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Originally posted by JaTe
i usually shift to neutral and brake.
remember...brake pads are cheaper to replace than an engine
i usually shift to neutral and brake.
remember...brake pads are cheaper to replace than an engine
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I downshift most of the time. If I'm coming in fast I squezze the firmly brakes at the same time I let the clutch out. I just can't seem for the life of me to pop the car in neutral and let it roll like an AT. I hate that feeling. I need a gear to be engaged. I am stupid I guess, I like to preserve my brakes or hardly use them at all. My brake dust buildup is minimal
I'm not worried about wearing out the clutch, tranny etc. I'm an
to it when I drive. Precision, precision.
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I'm not worried about wearing out the clutch, tranny etc. I'm an
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Originally posted by TeigerSX
sauceman, I haven't quite got the heel-and-toe down yet. Do you have a link that describes it in depth?
TEIGER
sauceman, I haven't quite got the heel-and-toe down yet. Do you have a link that describes it in depth?
TEIGER
Heel-toe how to
Links to additionnal resources for proper heel-toe driving techniques
Honestly, I had no idea what it was until I finally saw a 30 seconds screenshot of an endurance driver's feet at work in his 911 GT3R Cup. But, like many others it seems, I don't really twist my ankle that much, I just hit the gas with the side of my foot, I found that way was the easiest way for me to rev-match properly.
Good luck.
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Originally posted by TeigerSX
If you shift correctly, why in the world would you ever need to replace the engine???
I don't understand. Perhaps, because of increased use, you might see increased wear on the clutch, but knowing the quality of Honda engines, your statement is confusing.
sauceman, I haven't quite got the heel-and-toe down yet. Do you have a link that describes it in depth?
TEIGER
If you shift correctly, why in the world would you ever need to replace the engine???
![Confused](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/confused.gif)
I don't understand. Perhaps, because of increased use, you might see increased wear on the clutch, but knowing the quality of Honda engines, your statement is confusing.
sauceman, I haven't quite got the heel-and-toe down yet. Do you have a link that describes it in depth?
TEIGER
#27
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When I had an MT car, I almost always downshifted, but not usually through every gear. I'd use the engine to slow the car down, then just coast. I never liked the feeling of the car just being in neutral. Maybe when I go back to MT (not if, when!) I'll be more used to that neutral feeling and I'll brake in neutral more.
I can buy into the argument that brakes are cheaper than clutches, but I couldn't ever get used to that feeling of lifelessness that being in neutral gives you.
I can buy into the argument that brakes are cheaper than clutches, but I couldn't ever get used to that feeling of lifelessness that being in neutral gives you.
#28
Cost may be a consideration, but I don't think it is the question or the issue. Isn't the first issue "What is the best way to do it - brake or downshift", and then if you really care, look at the cost. One of the reasons I drive a stick is that I want direct control over the gear I am in, and the power to the wheels. I agree with jcg878 and Soze75 on the feeling of being in neutral (in life or in my car). I think one should always be in a gear necessary from which you can quickly accelerate. It does not happen often that you have to accelerate as you come to a stop, but when you need it you don't want to be pulling out of neutral. Besides, isn't one of the reasons we bought the MT beacuse of the joys of shifting.
I purchased a Celica GTS ten years ago over the Acura Integra GS-R, and while for me at the time it was the right decision, I remembered the slick shifting of the GS-R more often than I care to recount as I clunked through the gears on the Toyota.
I purchased a Celica GTS ten years ago over the Acura Integra GS-R, and while for me at the time it was the right decision, I remembered the slick shifting of the GS-R more often than I care to recount as I clunked through the gears on the Toyota.
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When coming to a stop, I downshift part of the way, then depending on the traffic flow, I'll shift the tranny into neutral and brake. I RARELY downshift to 1st gear!
I do tap the brakes a bit when downshifting to let the driver behind me be aware that I'm slowing or coming to a stop.
My brakes, clutches, and trannies have lasted a long time. My previous Accord's factory original brakes lasted 80K miles. That Accord now has 110K miles with original clutch, tranny, and engine--never needed rebuild or overhaul. Two of my previous Accord's clutches lasted over 200K miles. I don't recall much problem with the brakes.
Methinks my approach is a nice, proven balance between downshifting, braking, and durability.
I do tap the brakes a bit when downshifting to let the driver behind me be aware that I'm slowing or coming to a stop.
My brakes, clutches, and trannies have lasted a long time. My previous Accord's factory original brakes lasted 80K miles. That Accord now has 110K miles with original clutch, tranny, and engine--never needed rebuild or overhaul. Two of my previous Accord's clutches lasted over 200K miles. I don't recall much problem with the brakes.
Methinks my approach is a nice, proven balance between downshifting, braking, and durability.
#30
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Shift down even on my AT. IMO, TSX break is not strong enough hence I use the engine break to assist the break. When I had my Mz6, since the break was so sharp and strong, I hardly swith to manual mode to use the engine break. That's also the reason I drive 80% of my time with sportsshift.
#31
Team Owner
When approaching a red traffic light I usually downshift to break. Although I don't heel-n-toe I do tap the accelerator on the downshift to bring up the RPMs slightly (about 1K) to make it easier on the clutch when it re-engages in the lower gear (I think thats what is called rev matching). This keeps the car in gear for the time the light turns green and you just hit the throttle and you're off. I generally don't downshift all the way to 1st. If I'm moving at 5mph when the light turns green, 2nd gear, even at the lower RPMs has enough to let me accelerate out fairly easily. Now, for more spirited driving doing the toe dance on all three pedals may be in order. My 91 Integra 5MT has 112Kmi on the original clutch and I'm on my second set of brake pads.
#32
Three Wheelin'
Originally posted by gi'me
Continual downshifting will wear your syncho rings out.
Continual downshifting will wear your syncho rings out.
#33
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I actually doe both like sauceman said. I heel toe it. Doing both braking and engine braking will reduce stress on both drivetrain and brakes. The pedals are perfectly placed for heel-toing. Takes a while to get used to the gear ratios and blipping the drive-by-wire throttle to rev match the gears.
TeigerSX, just do a quick search on heel-toe and you should find plenty of useful information.
BTW, the brakes and clutch are meant to be worn out, that's what they're there for. Unless you're tracking your car or doing downhill canyon runs, excessive wear isn't an issue w/ a Honda. Plus, if they wear out... UPGRADE TIME!
TeigerSX, just do a quick search on heel-toe and you should find plenty of useful information.
BTW, the brakes and clutch are meant to be worn out, that's what they're there for. Unless you're tracking your car or doing downhill canyon runs, excessive wear isn't an issue w/ a Honda. Plus, if they wear out... UPGRADE TIME!
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#34
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Originally posted by CanyonballRunner
TeigerSX, just do a quick search on heel-toe and you should find plenty of useful information.
TeigerSX, just do a quick search on heel-toe and you should find plenty of useful information.
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Cannonball Run was a funny movie. Your user name reminded me of Dom DeLuise.
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The downshift vs. braking difference seems like it stems from how you were taught, rather than consideration for wear & tear. I trust the Honda engineers.
TEIGER
#35
Glad to hear the words "double-clutch" in these responces (but don't tell DEVO as he strongly disagrees). I usually only downshift at higher speeds and coast the rest of the way in nuetral, but it depends on the mood I'm in. I'm hard on brakes because I live in the mountians, so I try to downshift and use engine braking. Double-clutching while doing the heel-toe works well.
Slats
Slats
#37
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#38
I combine both braking and downshifting as my driving instructor many years ago always told me that you should never coast, always matching revs to the current speed.
going downhill you should especially use your gears as it gives more control over the car.
AT are very rare here in Europe as most of drive MT and most folks I know use this method...
then again if you saw some of the inclines we have to tackle in town you'd want to use all braking resources available !
Ernie
going downhill you should especially use your gears as it gives more control over the car.
AT are very rare here in Europe as most of drive MT and most folks I know use this method...
then again if you saw some of the inclines we have to tackle in town you'd want to use all braking resources available !
Ernie
#39
For AT, don;t put in to neutral when you try to stop the car.. i read on the news paper. if you put in to neutral .. some thing in the gearbox will be burn or damage...
#40
Originally posted by tsxer.ca
For AT, don;t put in to neutral when you try to stop the car.. i read on the news paper. if you put in to neutral .. some thing in the gearbox will be burn or damage...
For AT, don;t put in to neutral when you try to stop the car.. i read on the news paper. if you put in to neutral .. some thing in the gearbox will be burn or damage...