darth62

LOL. Well, it WAS funny. I do have to give him that one.

darth62

Not necessarily. My father spent a fortune maintaining his last M-B. That car was unreliable as hell. But, he loved it because it rode and handled great . He was willing to take the time and spent the $ to maintain it.

Driver satisfication is influenced by reliability, but not determined by reliability. Anyway, I'm not sure how JD Power ran that particular survey but the specific question could have pulled for answers that did not incorporate reliability.

jcg878

True... you could have a M-B that is in the shop half the time, but when if your friends stare at it when you drive by it's quite likely that you'll like the brand. It all depends on what values most to you.

darth62

Right. And, that is why I shouldn't suggest that the Acura is necessarily the best pick. Everybody has to decide what is important to them.

debayan

TSX is pretty much selling at MSRP; why is that when most other similar competing brands are selling closer to invoice. Do you think the TSX will be discounted of its MSRP sometime next year.

Soze75

Without reading any responses I'll say

Buy the car you like. That's it.
Drive them once, twice if you need. Trust your gut and just do it.
You can't really go wrong buying a new car these days. Even with a few faults these vehicles blow away what we had to choose from 5 years ago. Just do it.

darth62

Two issues: 1) TSX is the new toy on the block. It is highly sought after now because it is the new guy in town. Once it is out for a while, it will probably be available at lower prices.

2) Supply is low. Acura plans to increase the number imported, but they'll never be sold in high enough numbers for there to be steep discounts.

Upside to all of this is likely to be decent resale values.

darth62

The new reliability ratings from CR are out, and they actually suggest that any of these cars would be a reasonable pick!


The Saab 9-3 and 9-5 are both average in reliability.

The Audi A4 is below average but CR notes that reliability is improving.

The BMW 3-series is average.

So, even though I suspect the Acura will be the most reliable of the vehicles, and cheapest to maintain, I think any would be a good purchase.


IMO, these new findings suggest that you can pretty much toss out the issue of reliability when choosing among these vehicles. All should hold up pretty well.

Buff-Daddy

So basically, anything that I say that you do not want to hear is "irrelevant"?

The TSX, 325 and A4 are all great cars. What makes one DIFFERENT than the other does not make one BETTER than the other. You are right about one thing, that it all boils down to what is important to you. But you are wrong about awards being irrelevant, especially ones that have been earned year after year over the competition. You preach about Acura's/Honda's reliability history and yet you try and discredit BMW's history of awards by calling those "irrelevant"?

If he has a budget of $29,000, he should buy the TSX and be very happy. I can say that because I am not a hypocrite and I have an open mind.

P.S. For all of your Acura guys who keep complaining about BMW's nickel-n-diming with options, here is something to think about. If you chose the 6MT over the Auto, you should have saved money. On average, auto transmissions, especially ones with step-tronic add about $1,200-$1,500 to the price of the vehicle and yet Acura does not pass the savings on to you? You are paying for something you didn't get wether you wanted it or not. Is that any better? And before you start talking about all of the features that you get for "free" with the TSX, remember, nothing is free, you are paying for it all. And you DO NOT have leather interior, you have leather "trimmed" interior. Most of your interior is the "leatherette" that many of you have been ripping on and making fun of. You have xenons, but they are not the same xenons you get with German cars. German cars now all have "adaptive" xenons which turn into a corner with the steering wheel. You do not get one touch windows and moon-roof controls, you do not get fog lights, your brakes are smaller, your tires are cheaper, etc... Everyone talks as if they are getting everything for free.
If you really look at it, like everything else, you get what you pay for. Acura is not giving away the farm, they are making less expensive cars by using less expensive parts and selling them for cheaper prices. They are great cars, but they make the same profit off of a TSX as they do on a BMW. Especially since everyone is still paying close to MSRP.

darth62

Buff-daddy, I would appreciate it if you would stop twisting my comments. Slow down, and try to actually read my post.

I said that your argument that "you have to drive it to appreciate it" as well as the issue of C & D's list was irrelevant to THE SPECIFIC ISSUE OF RELIABILITY.

C & D did not rank cars with regard to reliablity.
Our experiences or (lack of experiences) driving the Beemer have nothing to do with reliability.

You responded to my concern that the Beemer had declined in reality by pointing out that the vehicle had been on C & D's list for 10 years. That is an irrelevant argument, when dealing with this particular issue.

Now, if you want to argue that C & D's list and experiences driving the car might indicate that the Beemer handles, accelerates, and rides better than other cars in the class I would agree. But, that has nothing to do with reliabily - the only issue I was addressing in my posts.

Buff-Daddy

I understand that, but I am trying to leave posts that actually stick to the origional topic which was "Deciding on a Acura TSX, BMW 3.25 or a Audi A4 1.8T"
This guy is debating buying one of these 3 cars and not just on the basis of reliability. So, I am debating some of your points, but also sticking with the origional topic which is looking at the entire picture, not just one specific area. You want to hammer home the reliability issue and you have done that, even though you are just "prediciting" the reliability because there isn't any "real" information out there yet. I am just pointing out awards that have been given out over the past few years... And these awards are "overall awards" not just performance awards.

jcg878

I think this argument can be ended by suggesting that debayan go and test drive all of these cars, and then come back and debate them.

These discussions always seem to start out well, and go downhill quickly.

darth62

BTW, Buff-daddy, you might want to take a look at my recent post above. Consumer Reports is going to upgrade the BMW's status when they eventually release the new reliability data. the 3-series will be one of their recommended models this year.

Spud

Darth and BD, you guys make for great reading! Keep it up.

On the question of which car, here's my take:

TSX = value for $$, better chance of good reliability, good fun to drive, beautiful interior

BMW = better handling, more prestige, great design, but more headaches and lower on-paper value/$$

A4 = beautiful design, not there on handling, nice to have AWD, not there on reliability.

For $29K, TSX should be the choice nine times out of ten...

tsx-mdxman

Buff, the entry-level German cars do not all come with adaptive xenons when you add them in, they pretty much all have leather only on the "seating surfaces" when you option them that way and the standard TSX tires are not cheap - they are good all seasons (they are not the summer tires C & D desired though). You are right, we don't get fog lamps standard (probably cost cutting, as you point out). We get a lot of outstanding standard "stuff" on the TSX. The reason Honda's parts are less expensive is because Honda is simply a more efficient manufacturer than BMW, VW/AUDI and MB. Labor costs in Germany are astronomical and it's virtually impossible for the Germans to compete on cost anymore (hence the ever increasing drive for them all to go further and further upmarket with each new model (VW's Phaeton and Taureg, for example, as well as the very high entry level cost for a new base 5 series).
It's true the content levels vary between all of these cars and each offers something unique and desirable. But the TSX, while definitely a compromise (just as each of the others are in their own ways more or less), is still a steal at its current price. That is not to take away from the 3 series or A4. They're great! My dad also owned 3 BMW's in a row, by the way, 1980-1992. The last was an anemic 325e, definitely not as sweet as the current 3.

justinjsw

Oh come on stop with this back and forth stuff already.

Debayan have you driven any of this cars yet? If not why not go drive them first. See how they feel...find out whats most important to YOU. Then come back and tell us what YOU think about each car. For some performance may be their hot button...for you it may not be...maybe you just want an all around car...maybe not...maybe the car is for yourself...maybe its the main car for the family...maybe you live in a snowy region and need AWD...maybe you don't...Bottom line is...What IS MOST IMPORTANT TO YOU....not us.

...Now go DRIVE the cars and don't have everybody here do your homework for YOU.

You will never know how a car behaves on the road sitting in front of the keyboard.

debayan

Driven the TSX and A4 1.8T AWD (both manual). I think the A4 is a gorgeous car to look at but interiors of TSX seemed more refined. Both didnt have the kind of performance that i expected but TSX was definitely a more comfortable drive, A4 cramped me a bit. Overall TSX was a better experience but i also want a car that turns heads.
Still gotta drive the Bimmer.

debayan

Just getting everybody's feedback! Isnt that what this forum is meant for?

TinkySD

Yeah of course, but as people have mentioned you have to live with it so you have to do what feels right. Falling into that same arguement is the feeling of acceleration. The tsx has shown itself to be significantly faster than the a4 and within a couple tenths of the 325.(the difference there might be solely due to launch dynamics..rwd and bad all season rubber on the tsx but i digress...) The tsx will probably feel significantly slower than the 325 due to it's slightly smaller displacement and slow torque fall off to redline. Regardless of what the "facts" bear out if the tsx acceleration doesn't feel right you might be better off with the 325.

The a4 and 325 both would have wound up costing much more than I wanted to spend so the tsx was perfect for me. Have you looked at the g35 at all?

justinjsw

Your question is too vague. There are different deciding factors for different people...the question I asked was...what was yours? If we know what is most important to you, then the guys here can give you better feedback in regards to what may matter to you the most.

debayan

Doesnt the G35 cost much more like mid 30's?

Iceman

Don't sell the TSX's looks short. People stop and look hard at my car all the time, and I often get compliments when I am getting out of my car. Some people like their cars to have rear spoiler, side skirts, etc etc -- Acura will sell you a factory kit, or you can look at some European or Japanese add-ons. Personally I like the classic, understated look (without the add-ons), and I love the colors available on the TSX.

SPUDMTN

Well--drive the Bimmer. I just drove a 325ia today (w/o Sport package) and I was greatly impressed by its performance. I've never driven a BMW before and I feel that I needed to, to understand what all the hype is about. The performance lives up to the hype. It literally is the ultimate driving machine.

The steering is great--the effort level actually makes you feel like you're part of the machine. It's not too heavy and not too light. It's variable assist, too, meaning the effort needed changes depending upon your speed (more effort at lower speeds, less at higher).

The suspension is tuned wonderfully. It rides very very smooth on smooth pavement. However, it gives enough feedback to let you know your driving a car with sporting intentions. While some cars give a light feeling, this feels substantial--it goes over imperfections and sends you the feedback without feeling chintzy or bouncy.

The transmission is great--VERY VERY smooth shifts. It's hard to tell if it even upshifts or downshifts it's so buttery smooth.

The engine is a work of art. I drove the 325...even this base engine is super smooth. It sounds great upon start up and is very strong and competant. It's a zippy little six, and like the transmission, its buttery smooth.

As for the exterior and interior--that's subjective. The exterior and interior really don't do anything for me. But the performance and the dealership experience alone could sell me on the car.

Check the off-topic section for a complete review...I should have one up in a day or two.

Buff-Daddy

You would have been even more impressed with the Sports Package. A slightly rougher ride, but a lot more confidence in the corners and overall handling. Glad you had fun though!

jiggaman

where is buff-daddy?