fdl

I checked my oil the other day and it seems fairly dark and dirty. I have about 3000 miles. The manual says to leave this "break-in" oil in the car untill the first scheduled maintenance....but I am thinking because its so dirty I should probably change it sooner?

On the other hand if this oil is specially formulated to account for metal particles ect which occur during break-in...then I might be better off leaving it in.

Any thoughts?

bowersan

Do what the manual tells you. IMO, unless you are a engineer and you know the properties of the oil and how and why it looks that way, you should follow the book. I mean, if they took the time to write that in the manual, it must be for good reason right?

J.

gi'me

Oil turns black fairly quickly. I change the oil on my MGA before I store it for Winter and at that time, it might only have a few hundred miles on it. I wouldn't worry about that. The filter should catch metal swarf, but I also have a strong magnet that attaches to the oil filter that is supposed to hold swarf in the filter. I bought it from Eastwood. It's about $20.

If the manufacturer recommends longer oil changes, I guess it's ok. But, even though the oil may be in good condition, I've always wondered about the filter. If the filter gets clogged, the bypass valve will open and dirty oil will be circulated. I just don't know.

fdl

I hear what you are saying and I was always planning to wait untill the book says to change that first oil. I too beleive that the honda engineers know alot more than I do. But the frequency of oil change really depends on how you drive the car. If you take it real easy you can probably go twice the recommended limit, etc. So perhaps I have driven my car harder than normal and I require an oil change earlier than the manual states. This is what i am suggesting...because the oil looks really dirty to me. I have my doubts the the recommended mileage in the book is the ideal mileage for all drivers in all driving conditions. I'm saying that in my specific case, is it possible I might need to change my oil now? or soon?

gi'me

fdl,

An oil filter and 5 quarts of oil costs $8 and 10 minutes of your time. If it will give you piece mind, then go for it.

dom

Against all advice from friends and a mechanic I performed my first oil change at 7000kms (manual suggests 8000). Most say its best to perform the first change at 1k as all the metal particles floating around a new engine should be removed ASAP?? The manual suggests waiting but I'm not sure they;re so right? My oil was dirty at that time but I would'nt say it was too bad. BUT I did'nt wait the full 8000km because my oil was low, and that should be a bigger concern to you than dark oil I think.

When I mentioned how low the oil was to the Acura Service Rep he said that was normal of Honda Vtec engines. I had a GS-R for 2 years and was never low on oil (mind you I changed it every 3K ) Same thing with my Civic, it was never low.

I performed my second change at 5000k and plan to go Synthetic at the next oil change and change it no more than every 6000K. I personally don't care what the manual says, and my argument is please explain to me how changing the oil can possibly hurt the car? It may hurt your wallet yes, but not the car.

EDIT: How many of you plan to change your own oil? And what are the drawbacks to doing so Warranty wise?
Or does anyone know how much a synthetic oil chnage costs at Acura in Canada??

fdl

I think the theory is...that the oil that comes with the car is special in that it can deal with the metal particles and dirt that are created during the breakin period where the engine developes its wear patterns. These "Wear patterns" (and subsequent particles) take about 8000 km to form therefor you want to keep this special oil in there to deal with it. I dont know if this is true or not..but I think this is the logic behind the whole break-in oil.

My thought is that..even if this is true...its possible that my wear patterns and break-in occered sooner based on my hard driving.

But who knows

dom

I understand the theory and belived it (on this car anyway) but my advice, change your oil, you already have 5000KM.

STC

iTrader: (1)

My advice to you guys is to use your best judgement.

Seems like some people on this board know very lil about the mechanics of the car (ex: oil changes ) and some people know a lot. Personally Im going to change my oil when I hit 2500-3000 miles. After my 2nd oil change around 6000 miles, Im going to switch to Mobil 1 sythentic.

The "special breaking in oil" Acura puts in is the same as regular oil. I remember reading it somewhere before where they took the "special oil" and Castrol GTX non synthetic (the oil Acura uses)
and analyzed it. Turned out to be the same thing. I'll see if I can find it.

dom

fdl, in case your planning on changing your own oil, Crappy Tire has a case of 6 Mobil 1 Synthetic as a special buy this week for $37.

CopperTop

At the time of purchase I picked up their "6 pack Oil Change" for $99 CAD. That's $16.50 a change. And with the first 2 services covered by Acura Canada, I'm good for a while...

dom

I was'nt even offered that. It that synthetic or regular??

CopperTop

Must be a dealer-specific thing. Wouldn't hurt to go back and ask anyway.
I'm not sure if it's synthetic or semi-synthetic. But either way, it'll be Acura approved and confirming to the warranty.

bbbuzzy

Why do you think you're oil needs to be changed? Because it's darker? Perhaps the coloration of the oil is due to breakdown products formed during the high heat inside the engine. It's also possible that the lubrication and heat transfer properties of the oil have not been compromised even though the color has changed. Molecules can be present below parts-per-million levels and still strongly color a solution. I'd go with the advice in the manual written by the people who designed, built and tested the engine. Honda knows what they are doing. Just follow their advice.

fdl

Yes Honda knows what they are doing, and when faced with the challenege of coming up with a milieage number that would be best for all drivers in all environment, 8000 km is probably as good as it can get. But that doesnt mean that the number cant be fine tuned for a specific instance , for example someone who does 90% city driving and loves to bouce off the rev limiter. I just dont buy into the idea that the number they gave is the BEST number for every situation, but it will be OK for 99% of them and that was their goal.

EDIT: You do make a good point about the color not being a good indicator of how good the oil is.

majormojo

My vote - do whatever lets you sleep at night. Even if the 'special oil' theory is true, I doubt you can hurt the engine by too frequent oil changes. I agree that colour alone isn't the best indicator of the oil condition, but who has the equipment to actually test it to know for sure? If dark oil bothers you, change it.

I also trust the advice in the manual and I plan to leave mine till the scheduled interval unless it looks really bad. So far (2700km) there's no change at all - in fact the colour is so light that it's hard to guage the level on the dipstick.

dom

Please do not forget to check the levels. I started noticing my oil was low at about 6000Km's. I actually had to add oil.

fdl

Yup,. at 2700 mine was the same. But suddenly its gotten alot darker so i started thinking about changing it. I'll leave it a bit longer and see if it gets alot worse.

gogozy

mine is 3900km, i wish i can let the this special oil in a bit longer, i am torn between moda and special oil theiry, but anyhow, i will get it change before winter arrive!!! that's for sure...

majormojo

domn, good advice. I'm a fanatic about checking the levels. All under-hood fluids @ every fuel fill up. Drives my wife nuts when we're in a hurry. I've already had to add oil. My understanding is that's not unusual for a new engine.

That practice of always checking levels probably saved the tranny in my truck this summer. At a regular fillup stop, I noticed the ATF was really low. Turns out I had a leak at one of the couplings for the secondary ATF cooler. Easy enough for me to fix, but if I hadn't noticed that, I could have had a real disaster on my hands.

Brad

I always do my own oil changes except when I have the car serviced. It's never impacted warranty for me.

I plan to change my oil at 5,000 miles. What's that in km's? 6,000?

It's odd that the owner's manual sez that all of Canada should follow the Severe maintenance schedule. I would hardly call southern parts of BC "severe", like Victoria or Vancouver.

dom

5000 miles equals 8000 km's

Honda says all of Canada is severe just in case I suppose.

Brad

Ah thanks. Multiple miles by 1.6 to get kms.

After the initial 5,000 mile oil change, I change my oil every 2,500 miles (let's see 4,000 kms?).

There's nothing severe at all about my driving habits or geographic area, but I guess my care and feeding of the car more closely follow a severe schedule.

ClutchPerformer

Those are all very good points. But the fact is that after the engine break-in process there's a bunch of metal chips floating around in the oil. They need to be flushed out or they get pulverized and float into places where they shouldn't be. This was the function of changing the oil at 500 miles or so on every other car every made. I'd like to know what has fundamentally changed about engine design on this k24 that allows us to ignore the fact that there's a bunch of shit floating around in the oil for 10k miles.

I think this whole 10k miles between oil changes is a marketing gimmick, i.e. "Hey, look at how low-maintenance it is!". And I'm sure it's possible to go that long and still be fine, but something has to give in the long term.

I'd like to get my hands on an owners manual from an '03 Accord 4-cyl or an Element. They both have essentially the same engine as the TSX, but I bet their first oil change is way before 10k miles. Anyone own one?

Another thing that irks me: if this "break-in oil" is so special and important, why can't they just change the oil at ~500 miles and put in MORE break-in oil? How hard is that?

Bottom line: I don't buy it. I'm changing mine at 3000.

ssm_tsx

I'm at 3500 miles, and I'm having the oil changed next week. I'm going to the Mobil 1 Full-Synthetic. The car is just running too rough and the oil is too black for my liking. I'll be switching the oil at 5K (having the tires rotated also) so I can get back on the Acura maintence schedule.

Soze75

I've just decided that there's no way I'm waiting until 8000Ks to get my first oil change. That's about the time I'll go full synthetic.

Although I trust Honda 97% of the time, this one just doesn't sit too well with me. It will be spring by the time I reach 8K and I ain't waiting that long.

Brad

First off, I plead guilty to speculation and conjecture. I don't have the facts or the source on hand to cite.

I read somewhere a few months ago about break-in periods for cars. The article said that different engines require different break-in procedures and terms. The article emphasized what's already been mentioned in this message string, such as letting the various parts interact with each other to make things "fit" and run smoother.

That said, the article mentioned that some Porsches do not require any break-in since (it implied) that things fit perfectly before it leaves the factory. (I'm speculating now.) Perhaps Porsche runs their engines to the broken-in point before the car leaves the factory? The article also vaguely referred to the quality of the engine's components. It should be of no surprise to anyone that some car manufacturers crank 'em out the factory regardless of quality.

Among the finest engines out there are Honda engines. Can anyone dispute that? Perhaps Honda has refined their manufacturing tolerances to much higher standards than most other engine manufacturers. That would explain differences between massive amounts of metal crud found in some other manufacturers' engines during break-in and the relatively little found in others.

ClutchPerformer

Point taken. I agree with that. There's definitely differences, but I just don't think the differences can be that big. I'll go back to what I said about the Accord 4-cyl and Element. They have the same engine (k24), but I bet their initial oil change interval is not as long.

JTso

iTrader: (2)

If it makes you feel more comfortable by leaving the "break-in" oil in a little longer, just change the oil filter. Personally, I will make the first oil change around 3000 miles and put in synthetic oil. As far as warranty, just keep record of the oil changes and receipts.

I have no plan to bring the car to the dealer for any service unless it's a major problem and it's covered by the warranty. I will perform all service on the car like I have been doing for my other cars. Btw, I changed the oil in my new Civic after 500 miles and swithed to synthetic. After 3000 miles, a JRSC was installed and boosted up to 8psi with the proper standalone fuel management unit and other related components. Regular oil change and compression test were performed and the engine is still in perfect condition. Honda engines are very well build and I wouldn't worry too much about it. The most important thing is to change the oil.

tehCOW

I am switching to Mobil 1 after 3000 miles also. I say do whatever you want as long as it makes you happy. I for one, like to keep my oil as clean as possible. I did all the maintenance for my past cars and also plan to do the same for my TSX. As for switching to Mobil 1 so fast.... did you guys know that the corvette, Porsches, AMGs and the viper come from the factory with mobil 1?

Also dark oil color is a characteristic of petro oils. If you switch to syn, you can clearly tell a difference.

As for changing oil every 10k or 5k... talk to any real mechanic and they will truthfully recommend 3k intervals for oil changes. Check out your maintenance guide and see when your spark plugs are supposed to be replaced... 110k miles. That’s a tad high. The same maintenance guide also recommends that you shouldn't change your oil filter at certain intervals. The words written in the guide are not written in stone guys. Moreover, the maintenance guide to me seems like it is for "ideal" conditions regardless if you fall under "normal" or "severe". If these words fail to move you, then it’s fine. Like I said above, do what ever you want... after all it’s a honda

gogozy

i know 02 Porsches 911 also have break in period, it also recommend warming up the car!!
i don't know if black oil point to dinno oil, but good oil suppose to collect dity stuff from the engine and help it stay away from emgine components. Winter is comming, i will not be able to wait til 5000km.... if there is ever a real special break in oil, it will just take longer to "fully" break in if changed oil prior.

ClutchPerformer

No argument there.
THIS is my point. 500 miles. Wouldn't you have felt uncomfortable waiting until 10,000 miles for that first oil change?

LeeLee

I just don't get it. I really don't. I mean how big of a @#()% do you really have to be to completely ignore what the manufacturer specifically tells you in more ways than one?

These engines have service limits: for a typical oil change, it's 7500 miles, 3750 miles, *OR LESS*, depending on your driving condition. Changing your oil every 3000 miles is okay because it is within the limits set by Honda.

For spark plugs, it's 115K miles, *OR LESS*. Changing your spark plugs every 30K miles is okay because it is within the limits set by Honda.

Of course you can do these maintenance earlier because such an action would be inside of the service limits outlined by Honda.

Honda specifically says that in order to facilitate the proper break-in of your engine, you should leave the original engine oil inside the engine until the first scheduled oil change based on your driving conditions. Changing your oil earlier than that is outside of the service limits outlined by Honda.

In other words, doing your first oil change sooner is similar to waiting beyond 75000 miles for your oil changes, or beyond 115K for your spark plug change. Doing maintenance outside of the service limits set by Honda is wrong no matter who you ask.

Do you go beyond 7500 for a regular oil change?
Do you go beyond 115K for a spark plug change?

If not, why the heck would you go below 3750 for the first oil chang?

I doubt any of you here drives your car in such a way as to require an oil change every 500, 1000, 1500, or even 2000 miles. So your first regularly schedule oil change interval can't be that soon.

dom

I get your point LeeLee, but most people including myself simply don't feel comfortable with doing so since its generally thought that new engines should have their oil changed immediately. I'm not saying thats right only saying that was the prevailing belief thought for a long time so it will be difficult to convince people otherwise. Its only recently that I anyway have begun hearing about this "break-in-oil"

BTW, I listened to the user manual and brought my car in at 7,500km's for its first oil change (8,000 reccomended) but considering how low my oil was after 6,500km's I'm not sure I did the right thing?

gogozy

i ask the dealer about when is the first oil change for TSX, she kind of pause and say; these are new cars now comes with new type of oil from factory, you need to leave it til 8000km or no more than 4 month. and i ask her if this is any different to regular maintance, i heard rumer this is a special break in oil; her reply is "this is cleansing oil, you need to leave it there long enough for cleansing job, but no more than 4 month" then i ask her how do i calculate the period of 4 month, she told me the day i took delievery, not the manufactory date.
her tone is very confident, and so i think, i will take it well if she can inform me so well. 8000km or; 4 month!!

LeeLee

Indeed, an early first oil change was the norm. I remember taking my 1994 Corolla in for its first oil change at just over 450 miles, and then again at 1500 miles.

But when I bought my '98 Accord EX V6 I was told not to change the oil until the first regular interval, which I figured was 5000 miles for my mixed driving. While I was *used* to doing the first oil change early, there was no reason for me to doubt the judgement and recommendation of Honda engineers. I had zero issue with following Honda's service guidelines because it required me to do *NOTHING* about the oil until 5000 miles or so. Just like a DVD no longer requires me to rewind before returning it back to the video retal store, a Honda engine no longer requires an early first oil change.

What's more important? the owner's curiosity/concerns that which is *KNOWN* to be no longer valid, or the well-being of the car's engine?

JTso

iTrader: (2)

I understand you are going by the "book" and it's quite okay. However, you failed to realize there is no way Honda can predict how a car is being used. That is why Honda makes certain "recommendation" based on different driving condition.

In my case, the Civic was purchased during the winter and it was hardly driven (I have a winter beater). I only accumulated 500 miles in a period of 6 months with mostly short trips and stop & go traffic. If you are familiar with what happens to an engine under those condition, you would probably agree the early oil change. There was a lot of condensation build up inside the crankcase when the engine is not fully warmed up and has a chance for the moisture to evaporate. I'm sure you have heard people telling you short trips and stop & go is not good for the engine, right? I have later installed a catch can in the PCV system to see what happen. Much to my surprise, after only one week of occassional short trip driving. The catch can has collected approx. two table spoon full of water!

Now, the question is, do you want the possibility of having that much water in your "break-in" oil during break-in? I sure don't for my particular situation. I love all my cars and would do whatever necessary to make sure they will last a long time. Btw, it was the Honda dealer who suggested I should change out the oil after I told them the situation.

My point is, do whatever you think is right for your driving condition and use the Honda recommendation as a guideline, not a bible.

LeeLee

I believe Honda's guidelines for oil change has a time limit as well, such as 3750 miles or 3 months, which ever comes first.

In your case, even though your 500 miles seems low, you probably satisfied the time requriment. But my initial impression was that you drove like the average Joe, racking up 12,000 miles in a year. If your situation is extremely special, of course your oil change intervals will be adjusted accordingly. But it would be wrong to extrapolate your decision to mean that others should also have an early first oil change on their cars.

My point is, doing your maintenance and services within the limits suggested by Honda Engineers is the best way to ensure the longevity of your vehicle. No one said anything about going by the book, just that it is not a good idea to go outside of Honda's recommendations, either by waiting too long to do an oil change, or performing the first oil change too soon.

Bass Mechanic

IM with LeeLee, you guys are blowing this all out of proportion. your all going to stress yourselves to death. personally i have only opened the hood of my TSX to show people the engine. i havnt pulled the dipstick even to look at it. that is what the PDI guys job is before it left the dealer. im going by what honda reccommends. unless i get a low oil level light im not even going to worry about it. the problem is you guys get a new car and your all worried somthing will happen to it. to be perfectly honest if you caused any slight or minor (which is crazy to assume) damage to the engine with too soon or too late of an oil change do you seriously think it will affect the life of your engine? the way most of us drive our cars meaning not as nice as a 90 year old grandma would. your first oil change should be the least of your worrys.
as for metal floating around in the oil pan, firstly i think your imagining things and making a mountain out of a mole hill. particles that would be comming from the inside parts o fthe engine are so small they are on a molecular level. they wouldnt be seen floating anywhere. as for the magnet on the filter comment. most of the molecules in the oil of metal nature are likely going to be brass or aluminum, none of which have magnetic properties. the only thing in the engine magnetic in the inside of the engine will be the crank and cam as well as rockers. if these parts show significant wear they will self distroy each other in short order. meaning there is little if any metal to metal contact of any significance. if there was then it would be common place for people to experience failure of these parts. honda engines run for 1/4 to 1/2 million miles all over the world.
secondly if there are peices or metal floating in the oil they get sucked up by the oil pump and stored in the oil filter where they are supposed to be. they dont travel through the engine like you think. if any do make it past the filter they are SMALLER BY FAR than the oil clearance between bearings and other vital parts. so they dont affect anything.
3rd if these particles are large enough to damage the engine in any way dont you think honda oil filters would be filtering these particles out if they are large enough to cause any damage?
if you want to use synthetic then fine. but in all honesty honda reccommends a break in procedure for a reason. by switching oils trying to prevent wear may be in some cases not allow your engine to fully break in. especialy if you change the factory oil befor eyour supposed to.
if severe driving was an issue they would state that in the manuel. they would say if you drive your car hard after the break in perios then change it sooner. they dont say that so dont assume it's true. and from what i know and have talked to honda mechanics i have consistantly heard that hionda engines arent really fully broken in untill well over 7000 miles. the initial oil interval is there to help promote the breaking in of the engine as soon and as safe as possible.

dom

My PDI was done at 8km. I checked the dipstick at 6,500km and found that there was no oil between the two holes at the bottom of the dipstick. No oil between the two holes is a bad thing. The manual and LeeLee suggest to check your oil every time you put in gas. Of course noone will actually do that, but checking it say every 1,000km is'nt too much work.

If I were you I'd be checking my dipstick periodically.