Car Shopping Blues - Consumer Reports?
 

Well, first I'll tell you where I'm coming from. I have a 93 Pontiac Grand Prix coupe that is approaching 195,000 miles. People tell me I am extremely lucky to have this car go this long and although some annoying problems have cropped up in the last year, I refuse to fix them because I am in the market for a new car. At this point I think each mile is a gift and I need to be deciding on a car in the near future.

For the past few months I have been convinced the TSX is the car for me. I finally took the car for a test drive over a month ago and was elated. I had been worried about the lack of power from the 4-banger based on past experience, but obviously all 4-cylinder engines are not created equal. The feel of the car was good and the common complaints (soft brakes, etc) did not bother me at all.

My fiancee felt I should really try out some more cars instead of settling on just one right away. I was pretty underwhelmed by the A4 1.8T and the higher models are out of my price range. A lot of rear-wheel drive cars are not an option for me since this car will be my daily driver and I live in Minnesota. Per her suggestion, I also tried the Buick LaCrosse and the new Grand Prix, but was not really interested in either car, despite more power. They did not feel "fun" to me.

I tried out a loaded Mazda 6 (V6) last night and was surprised by that car. It seemed to handle like the TSX and had enough pep to stay interesting. I felt like the 6 was the same in terms of acceleration compared to the TSX though. The low-end torque is a little lacking, although not bothersome, in both cars. I felt the interior was ok, not disgusted but not in love with it like the interior of the TSX.

So it seems I need to choose between the Mazda 6 and the TSX. I was reading a new guide by Consumer Reports that my fiancee's father lent to me and it says the Mazda 6 has a worse than average rating in predicted reliability. The purpose of this post is not to ask "which car I should get?" but I wanted to know how much weight should be given to Consumer Reports ratings. I feel in order to make an informed decision I would like to know more information on why it earned such a low rating for reliability. Does anyone know if more information is provided on the Consumer Reports website? I had tried doing some searching on Google to find info, but I mainly find sites that bash both cars. Are their other websites that would provide good, unbiased information on reliability? Anyone know how J.D. Power ratings are determined?

I think I also need to drive the TSX again, to give it a good comparison while the driving experience of the Mazda 6 is still in fresh in my mind. Sorry for the long post, thanks for reading!

TZ

Get the Mazda 6, oh wait, this is an Acura forum....Get the TSX.... :)

I visited several Mazda 6 forums when I was in the market for a car last year
and problems with the ecu came up several times, as far as reliability, as a whole.....lets just say Ford owns Mazda. I believe JD Powers gets info from surveys from individuals not 100% sure about that though.

Yeah, I'm aware of that. My first car was a Ford (not my choice) and it was a complete nightmare. I wasn't sure how representative forums would be. Based on reading this forum for a few months, the only common problem I see is rattles, while annoying, is considerably minor in my opinion. Based on what I have read on Mazda 6 forums the problems I have read about seem to vary. I haven't seen anything about the ECU yet.

You have to treat CR as one source of information. In the past, I have made the mistake of treating their recommendations as "law" and I don't think that is the case anymore. Their data are good, but other sources of information matter.

That said, over the years (I've actually been a CR suscriber off and on for 20 years), I've found their data to be extremely trustworthy. So, I do believe that the Mazda6 has not been all that reliable in the first two years of production. I also think that Mazda will probably correct the problem, and the car will eventually be about as reliable as the competition from Nissan and other Asian makes (but probably a notch below Honda and Toyota).

If it were me? I'd probably give the MZ6 a pass for now. That doesn't mean that you don't have other options in this class besides the TSX. Some reasonable options, the Accord V6 Coupe, Maxima, TL (if you want to spend a bit more), IS300, G35 (again, a bit more $), Legacy GT.

I also chose between the Mazda 6 and the TSX. The Mazda 6 was cheaper, but was not too thrilled about Mazda being part of the Ford family. I had a bad experience with a Ford where the shifter/stick came off while I was driving.
I've owned nothing but Hondas (TSX my 10th since 1988) and I've never had any bad experience that even remotely comes close to what I mentioned above. So, I played it safe and went with the TSX. As expected, I'm absolutely happy with my decision.

We crossed shopped the Mazda 6 (5-door sport) and the TSX.

I could get a new Mazda for Ford S-plan (invoice) plus the '04's had $3000 cash back.
I felt this looked bad for resale.

We still went with a cert. used Acura TSX. It was a dealer demo model.
Why, my '00 Accord coupe is the best car I have ever owned, no problerms compared to the other cars we have had.

2nd resale on the Acura blows the 6 away. I surfed Many Mazda forums before getting the TSX. The 6 had some issues with rust and such that made me un-easy.

Plus the TSX interior blew the Mazda away. In addition, the TSX has been on the Car and Driver 10Best list twice. The Mazda got dumped after one year, the TSX didn't, what does this mean? Plus, the Mazda will need a timing belt at some point, the TSX never will.

You also have to take into account a lot of the rental car companies carry the Mazda 6 as a rental. This is going to hurt the resale value of the car in the future.

Well the dealership I tried the Mazda6 at is one of those non-commission dealerships, so they said no negotiation on the price. I wasn't intending on buying anyway, but with all the rebates the loaded 2004 Mazda 6S with V6 was about $21500. This may seem appealing to some, but all I could think about was how these cars must not be selling enough to meet their goals. This will affect resale too, seems like if you pay invoice for this car you are getting taken.

The way I look at it, the car I buy needs to have either good resale value or good reliability because I will either need to unload it in a few years or drive it into the ground. I kept my Pontiac this long because I never had major problems and it was long paid off.

Thanks for the suggestions guys. I also looked at a used 3 series, but I really would like AWD due to where I live. This put even the used ones out of my price range. The same with the A4 with AWD and V6. I considered the G35, but again, I would want AWD and the used models are still slightly out of my price range. I figure why pay the same money for a used car when I can get a TSX new that includes the warranty. I also tried the Legacy and WRX. Lots of power and fun to drive, but the interior looks even more outdated than my current car and the exterior just isn't my taste.

Anyhow, hopefully I can stop by my Acura dealership tomorrow. The internet salesperson offered me $1800 off of MSRP while the other two dearlerships in my area have only offered to take off $570. They won't budge!

$1800 off MSRP is a great price for the TSX!
Consumer Reports is THE best place for reliability information--NOT for road tests!
My own experience with Mazda sedans (626, 929) also indicates that reliability, including paint, etc. is NOT up to that of Acura. That's why I wouldn't consider a Mazda.

TZ the 1800 off is a good deal.
I'd also like to point out dealer demo's

I was lucky and found one with 6000mi on it.
Which dropped the MSRP 5 grand (b/c technically it's a used car.) and included the 7yr. Cert used Acura warranty.
Just incase dealers in your area may have one.

But mine is an Auto-non Nav, if you want stick it will have to be new.

I have been a Pontiac fellow since 1966; GTO, 6000 and Grand Am. I started my shopping looking at Pontiacs and ended up with the TSX. I considered Mazda, but my research found too many inexcusable problems such as the lubricant used to install some of the weather stripping was causing the metal to corrode.

I have 4500 miles on my TSX and have been very pleased with it. I really miss having spot lights in the overhead in addition to the flood lights (the 6000 has them). I would like to have a manual switch that would allow me turn the interior lights on and off. I have finally grown used to the reversed tach/speedometer, the cruise control being on the steering wheel, and the other differences. I hate the projected headlight beams when driving in the mountains.

I currently get 25 MPG with the 6000 and Grand Am, and the same in town with the TSX. The TSX gave me 35 MPG on the one trip, but I suspect that I had a favorable tail wind in both directions (actually, I was behind large trucks and SUV's most of the trip).

I believe the TSX will have the lowest total cost of ownership of anything else that I considered.

When doing your research, read as many forums and owner's postings as you can. It doesn't help resale value for owners to publish all their problems, but they do it anyway.

My dealer, Apple Tree Acura, seems to really appreciate their customers and it is likely that my wife will buy either another TSX or a TL from them in a couple of years. She also likes the TSX. She says it makes the miles go by quickly -- and that trips seem shorter than they do in the other cars. She refers to local trips such as going into town and to surrounding areas.

I'm glad you know the Mazda issues, the dealer thought I was nuts.
Wow a 6000, that was quite the car in the day....likely the last time I think Pontiac made a sweat machine. Why can't they make sporty sedan with cool features anymore? I think the 6000 was also a suprise upstart to the Toyotas and Hondas in the day--kind of funny an owner of one now has a TSX :D

Thanks again for all the replies. The more issues I hear about the more my first choice of TSX seems like the right one. I plan on telling my salesperson I want to take an extended test drive of the TSX tomorrow. The first time I drove a demo and it was quite strange to have the salesperson encouraging me to really open it up. The demo already had 9000 miles on it, so it was well broken in and probably beaten on many times!

An aside, I cannot find pictures of the Mazda6 rust "stain" problem. Does anyone know of a working link?

Thanks,
TZ

The referenced site has been removed (404 error), but here is a related thread: https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3727

See also: https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6316

I had 6446mi of folks beating the snot out of my demo, runs like a champ, just plain awesome. I figure if it runs after all those yahoos with out issues, I'm gonna be fine. A 7yr. 100k mi warranty and thousands MSRP off didn't hurt neither :D

>>But mine is an Auto-non Nav, if you want stick it will have to be new.
Not necessarily true. My dealer had a 6MT test-drive car....harder to find? Definitely, but not impossible.

:racing:

I too have respect for Consumer Reports' reliablity sureveys. They are, afterall, compilations objctive data. However, and this is a big "however" for me, one component of car buying for me has always been *passion,* and Consumer Reports has no indicator of this quality. For example, CR has rated the Camry very highly, but the car leaves me cold. No passion for me.
We looked at the Mazda 6 before settling on the TSX but the interior was, IMHO, underwhelming. Even if the car's reliabiliy was sterling, I wouldn't have considered it .
When we first saw and test drove the TSX, we *felt* it was the right choice for us.
Now that we own a '05 TSX, we know we made the right choice. What a fabulous car!

JD Powers ratings are based on owner surveys. They mailed me a survey and a dollar after I bought my tsx.

I would consider what consumer reports says but you have to compare them to other reports and surveys.

As far as mazda's reliability, MAZDA IS MADE BY FORD. Now ask yourself which is more reliable, a Honda(Acura) or a Ford(Mazda)?

I would agree with other posters on this thread that CR's reviews of the handling characteristics and the styling of the cars they test is likely to be pretty blah, but their objective information and their data compliation is great. I would never base a decision on a car exclusively on CR's reviews (far from it) but I would always check their reliability records to get a feel for the history of the car and the manufacturer both............................ I think their reliability data is compiled via survey and feedback, and I would place a lot of faith in their reliability rankings. By the same token, their "recommended" or "best buy" is generally an endorsement of some level of substantive quality. Frankly, I wished I had checked their reliability ratings before leasing my Jetta GLX.......... :explode: :doh:

If you've got it down to the TSX and the Mazda and the issue hangs on the reliability issue - go with the TSX. Acura and Honda both have substantive records for better than average reliability across their product line.

When you take your extended test drive, try to find some midrange curves to tackle - the TSX will do its best tight-tracking on those turns. ...........

Here are some photos of the 6000:

http://psiprograms.com/cImages/6000/

It has been a good one. It has also been to Key West, Mexico, and Quebec, but its traveling days are over. I might take out the back seat and make a freight hauler out of it for stuff like mulch, groceries, etc. Best milage was on the way back from Key West at 38 MPG. Can you imagine a drivers, and passenger, door that is 4 1/2 feet wide (I loved the doors).

Some say that the G6 is the long awaited replacement for the 6000. If I recall correctly, the 6000 garnished the highest customer satisifaction rating of all General Motors models at the time (per the Edwards Company) and then not long after, Pontiac announced that they were going to stop building the 6000 -- so much for customer satisfaction. I paid $13,000 for the car and probably put about $8,000 of gas through the tank. It is a 1984 model; replaced by a 2004 TSX.

In contrast, I paid $3,400 for the 1966 GTO and probably put about $16,000 of gas through the tank (240,000 miles).

I can't imagine buying another domestic car after having experienced the TSX and the level of customer service from Apple Tree Acura.

I believe that should have been J. D. Powers. I get J. D. Powers and J. D. Edwards (computer software) confused.

Consumer Reports is based on survey's from their members. I get mine every year. It asks detailed questions about issues and problems and satisfaction. I gave my TSX rave reviews. :woot:

You like the TSX but not the A4? The A4 is what I REALLY wanted, but the new generation is a month or so out and they are a little too much $$ for me. I'd try the new generation that comes out soon before you decide. The A4 is a VERY VERY nice car all around, and the new 2.0T should be plenty powerful as it is 200hp turbocharged. Audi has quite possibly the best fit and finish inside their cars. If it were me, I'd go A4--TSX-------Mazda6

I drove a 2001 A4 1.8T Quattro and it was about as fun to drive as my very first car given to me by my parents (88 Ford Escort :eww:). No power at all and I felt the interior was a horrid mess. The newer models look a little better on the inside, but to me it's still...meh. I want to find one with a stronger engine to try out, but they are either too new, and thus out of my price range, or not AWD. Plus, I recently noticed Consumer Reports said the 2001-2002 A4 was a used car to avoid. I guess I felt like the A4 was too much money for what you get, and a decent used one will cost me close to what the TSX will cost. TSX seems like a better deal and better reliability to boot.

I'm not trying to steer you away from the TSX but um... the 3 series does come in all wheel drive. The 330Xi is an all wheel drive. However... with a bimmer, you will lack reliability and also it will cost almost twice as much in the short term and long term.

I think for all the reasons the previous posters have mentioned, the TSX is the superior car in the segment and you will LOVE it. I had a 2001 Accord EX-V6 and had my heart set on the TL, but after driving it back to back with the TSX three times I came away in love with the TSX. I thought the 4 cylinder and less power was going to be a turn off, but the engine is part of what makes the car so wonderfully balanced and composed. For the price, you're not going to get the combination of handling, quality interior, great nav system (if you want it), handsome-without-being-flashy good looks and quality in any other competing product. The Mazda is decent but like others have pointed out, it's a FORD. I think the A4 and the 3 Series have great qualities as well, but you'll pay way more at the dealer and at the garage. After 14K miles in 5 months, I have nothing but raves for the TSX.

Well the Mazda 6 isn't really a Ford, the chassis is based on the old Milennia and the 4cyl is a Mazda design, but it has a cast crank which I think are rougher running then forged cranks like a Honda's. But the 6cyl is a Mazda redo of the Ford Duratec V6, which I hated as an engine...it was in the old Contour what a sucky car.

The only way I would buy the Mazda is as a 4cyl Wagon....else I would pass on the 6, it would be ok to have if you already had the TSX in the household.

I looked at some used 3 series too, I knew the 330xi was available. None of the used ones my local dealers had were in my price range. Well, one was, but it was yellow! The TSX tops out my price range, I want to try and get the car for $30000 otd because I need to also be saving up for a house.

TZ

Well I just got back from the dealership after my extended test drive. I got the car for about an hour and a half to test in many conditions and put on about 50 miles. Here in Minneapolis the main roads are very clear and dry, so I could do what I wanted to test the car safely, but the side roads are still ice coated and snowy, so I could play around with VSA. Really impressed overall, I think this test drive has convinced me that this is the car I want.

I wish I could tell you I went back to the dealership to put down a deposit. They have the car I want with Nav coming in, but my salesperson needed to check with a manager to get the ETA. I asked if she would still honor the price she gave me in mid-December and well, let the games begin. She thinks $1800 off will be hard to do (After getting quotes from other dealers last week, I figured this was too good to be true). She says she'll talk to the manager when he is back tomorrow to find out what she can do. Well I already have in my head what limit they need to meet before I walk, but what would you do? I want them to know I am serious about getting a car, but not desperate. I had already counter-offered the other two dealers telling them I had a quote for $1800 off and they said I better go get it, so I'm not sure I can go back to them. Ahh, now the truly fun part of negotiation begins!

TZ

I usually prefer to deal for cars already on the lot, it makes it so much easier to barter. You have the money...they have the car...they want it gone so they don't pay for it to sit on the lot.

Get's much tougher for a car that isn't in yet. If you can find a navi on the lot, I'd deal on that---this is slow-uary the month of slush and shitty car sales, I think you should be able to get the price you want. Especially come Jan 29th or later in the month.

At this point you should be able to deal over the phone--I prefer this method much better.

Hope you join the cult...I mean--the family. :D

What is the basic difference between a cast crankshaft and a forged crandshaft.

There is something call BMW 325xi and which is at least $5000 less than 330xi. But, who care! when a TSX is a way better car than a brand new 325i then why brother to get a used one! :dunno:

Good luck, man!

Myself, I am torn between the TSX and 325i. Right now in Canada they are really pushing the 325i....good lease rates and great residual of 62%. What it means is that they will basically cost me the same even though the BMW is more expensive. I like the RWD of the BMW and, yes, there is some cachet attached to the name. The interior of the TSX is a bit better (this advantage is somewhat mitigated if you get a package on the 3 that includes the upgraded steering wheel) and the Navi system in the TSX rocks! One downside of the BMW is that it is actually very difficult to find a manual one. Surprising for 'the ultimate driving machine'. They are both great cars and I am having a hell of a time making up my mind. In the end, it will probably come down to the Navi versus the name. Acura Canada does not seem to have any January specials on like a lot of the other manufacturers do, so that is a factor as well.

BTW, I have always found Hondas to be really boring, so it is something of a surprise to me to find myself seriously considering a Honda product. This particular Honda product does not have that 'driving a bus' feel that you always got from the incredibly low cowls they always had.

The A4 is simply too heavy for the 1.8T, especially with quattro and (you didn't mention it you drove an AT or MT) God forbid an automatic transmission. I think it's pushing 3500 lbs with all that stuff.

In the Jetta or Golf, which can be had in configurations that weigh only 3000 lbs, the 1.8T is a blast but you have to beat the crap out of the motor to get an A4 to even move adequately. Reliability is high on your list so those are probably out, although I bet you could steal a Jetta GLI (6-speed, 180hp) now that the new body style is coming next year.

Yeah, it was an AT. I thought maybe I missed putting it in drive or something because the car wasn't moving. I had to push the gas down quite a ways down to even get it to move. The whole time during the test drive the engine sounded like it was in agony. This was also a test drive with just myself in the car, I couldn't imagine having any passengers. Totally underwhelmed, why did Audi even bother to make this car? Well it sounds like if I want a useable A4 with AWD, I should try out the 3.0 models.

Thanks,
TZ

I like their Suzuki reviews the most. They are always very negative. So much so, it's fun to read.

By the way, how often does this scenario happen, this is the first time I am buying a new new car. I requested an internet quote from a dealer in December and after the auto-generated email nothing happened, no quote. I emailed the person back a week later asking for a quote and if I could drive the car. They call me and give the quote over the phone, did not say anything about how long that price is good for.

So I drove the car, drove some others, go back last night and it has been maybe 12 days since I got the original quote. Now they say they probably can't do that quote anymore (I thought it was too good to be true, so not TOO surprised).

Is this a common thing to happen? Feels like they roped me in and want to screw me over now that I am interested. They said that was end of December when I got the quote and they wanted to boost their numbers, but now it is January and they don't care. I can understand that, but you'd think they would stand by their quote. :dunno:

Without going into a ton of boring engineering....

The cast crank is poured at a foundry into a mold usually from cast iron.
The mold is made of compressed sand usually. The crank will be near net shape and requires very little machining to be the final product for your car. When the iron hardens you just break off the sand and reuse it to make another mold.

The forged crank requires purchasing a bar of steel usually, say about 4.5" round and let's say 20' long to make the number simple. They (mfg.) cut the bar into 1' long smaller bars called a Mult. The mult is then heated up red hot glowing, and stuck into a press called a forge. The forge has the pattern of the crank in it, the pattern, or die, is made out of tool steel and coated with graphite powder so the crank won't stick. Smash it down a bunch of times, open the up the die and out comes a near net shaped crank ready to machine.

The cast crank will have some porosity or mini holes like air bubbles in it for lack of a better analogy. And will require more balance weights to be added to make it spin without going off balance. The forged crank will be very dense and solid and requires less weights on average.

On average the forged crank will be stronger and thus can be smaller and lighter to do the same load rating as the larger cast crank. But the cast crank can be much cheaper to make.

Most cranks were always cast from 1950-ish era on, then in the 70's when HP figures dropped way down in engines most domestic companies went to cast cranks, it was cheaper and less likely the weak engines would break them anyhow. In recent years some have switched back to forged cranks for smaller lighter cranks and I think the engines run smoother on them.

When I built engines as a hobby I would always look for a forged crank vs. a cast crank to build my v8's with from junk yards.

In general I'd bet 100% of all high output engines have cast cranks, save for a Rotory engine which doesn't really have a true crank I guess...but any way.

I'm not aware of any cast Honda cranks, but I could be wrong.

I could go into more detail, but there are entire books on this sort of thing...