MoFocker

When I downshift with some space to spare, I of course press the clutch, rev match, and choose my gear and go... Thats always been fine... But today i was just testing something which might also be normal but im just not aware of... When downshifting, I let my foot off the gas just a split second after pressing the clutch in. That causes the rpms to remain still and/or jump up a little and i can catch the next lower gear really easy. It almost seems as though this should be the standard for downshifting. It probably is, and I just dont know yet. Is this ok? Does it cause any unnecessary wear? I feel like I cause more wear doing a gas blip to rev-match then I cause doing this. Thanks in advance...

moda_way

I've noticed what you're talking about and I think it is just a minor delay from the electronic throttle.

There isn't any damage with this "blip" effect because the difference is a mere 200-400 rpms at most that I have noticed.

biker

You guys have been watching too many track movies and listening too much to the shifting advice of others on this board. There's nothing magical about shifting (other than finding the clutch engagement point) - depress clutch, put it in whatever gear seems correct for the speed and let out the clutch. Works for first gear, shifting up shifting down. Notice there's nothing in there about bliping throttle/heel-toe and all of that fancy stuff. I don't have a TSX manual handy but I'm pretty sure there's no mention of blipping the throttle to match revs. Many of those techniques also don't translate well in today's world of DBW throttle.

MoFocker

Thats what I think too.. Ive ben driving stick forever and never heard or practiced any of these 'proper' methods people post on this board. I ask around and nobody else does either. Im not putting down the suggestions, because thats what this board is made for, but when someone asks a question about shifting, how about listing the 'normal' procedures/mehtods as opposed to the methods used by formula-1 drivers...

Dan Martin

I'm not claiming to be a F1 driver but a heel-toe downshift does make things a lot smoother. By all means use whatever technique you feel works best for you but heel-toe is not complicated. Its second nature to me now, all it takes is practice.

You certainly don't need to know how to heel-toe for street driving but I highly recommend it. Some of my friends thought I had an automatic because they couldn't feel it when I changed gears (up or down). Heel-toe doesn't have to be aggressive. It allows you to blend engine braking with regular braking and smooth out the transition between the two.

jlukja

The extra wear and tear on the clutch using your techniqe just about compensates for the extra fuel burned by letting the RPMs drop while the clutch is in before rev matching (i.e. no big deal)

moda_way

biker... just making an observation about something I have noticed that I think relates to the electronic throttle control. Watch when you say "you guys" because I definitely made no suggestions on methods of shifting.

If you even own a manual tranny, while accelerating, take a moment to see what happens in the milliseconds when you depress the clutch and go to shift gears WITHOUT touching the gas pedal. Personally, I'd like to know if others have noticed this "blip" that occurs, b/c if others haven't, then I'd like Acura to solve this in my car because I've driven my father's Porsche Boxster S (has electronic throttle control) and didn't notice it in his.

biker

Moda - that was just a generic reference to all the folks that are advocating all the fancy ways of shifting - just happen to post right after you.
In a world of software controlled everything in the car there's lots of possibilities and variations on how a car might behave - I certainly would not compare the reaction of the DBW throttle in a Boxter to that in the TSX cause while the DBW in general might be the same the implemenattion is probably very different leading to different reactions.
I'd venture to guess that the typical dealer will laugh you out of the serivce bay when you try to tell them that the thing you describe is abnormal.

moda_way

Should I assume this is another "generic reference" again? Do you have a manual transmission TSX? Wouldn't you be concerned enough to report an abnormality (if you found it to exist in your car) to the dealer in hopes that it might make it far enough up the ladder to improve the product? Sure it may be extreme optimism.

This "blip" that we've merely been discussing has provoked this response from you I'm simply not understanding. The rest of what you said previous is something that I agree with you on.

I've had my TSX since June of last year and will hit 12K on it in next few days. It certainly won't be my father's Boxster S, but then again, I wasn't making a total comparison. The Porsche DBW system is my only frame of reference, hence my observation.

FYI, I'm skeptical of service departments anyway.

biker

No, I don't have an MT TSX but I have driven the Euro Accord MT (I don't recall the abnormality you described). Actually, as my avatar shows, I don't drive cars much at all.
In 20+ years of car ownership I've visited a dealership only once and that was to pick up the family Accord LX 5 sp. I have very little optimism in dealerships in general.
BTW, I've driven a Boxter and a few other MT other cars and honestly, I pay very little attention to details. I actually made a point of paying attention to the way I drive today and I don't remeber when I started this habit but I blip/modulate the throttle ever so slightly during 1st gear take offs but never any other time. Driving an MT is so second nature that there's things I do that I don't realize I'm doing, nor the reason for them.

Bass Mechanic

biker and mrcenzo , this blip thing you speak of mrcenzo you say that you are pressing the clutch in when the rpm's jump breifly. biker agrees with you. but what i dont get is how you guys think this has anything to do with matching the gears up when shifting or making smoother shifts.
see when you press the clutch in you have COMPLEATLY disconnected the engine from the transmission. this means that reguardless of the speed the engine happens to be the clutch disk and input shaft are spinning totally different than the RPM's of the engine. unless you shift to neutral, let the clutch out rev the engine and depress it again for the next gear to down shift (double clutching) or slow the engine when in neutral to upshift. all the heal and toe shifting bla bla bla has nothing to do with what the syncros actually are doing for you in a MT equipped car. the syncros are actually a clutch of sorts that make the speed of the input shaft match the speed of the output shaft for the particular gear your about to shift into.
have you ever had a car with a bad pilot bearning? the excess drag on the input shaft will make shifting difficult because the input shaft always wants to be spinning at the same speed as the engine.

i should also add that if you shift normally like most of us do i have found that the TBW system in the TSX almost seems programmed to allow the engine rpm to fall at a rate that when shifting to the next gear the engine seems to be at just the right speed when you let the clutch out so that there is no jerking then you engage the next gear.
ever since i got the TSX i wondered if i was just better at shifting than i had remembered since my previous car was a 2001 TL (auto of course) and car previous to that was a prelude type SH (manuel) i have never remembered being able to shift a car so smoothly and so easily every time with normal driving so i assume it has to do with the TBW system, not the way i shift.
i have a feeling that with the magic shifting you speak of makes you think its the way you drive and in reality its just the way the TSX shifts.

moda_way

I know here in the Cincinnati, OH region of the world, only the crazy stay alive on motorcycles. How is it in Switzerland? I think if I didn't have a reason to live, I'd drive a motorcycle here every day possible. I was actually going to get a Ducati 998, but I figured a new TSX would do me better knowing that my wife wanted children.

I have a feeling what Bass Mechanic is saying is far more logical an answer than my thoughts of it being a glitch or something. I'd much rather believe it was intentional than an issue.

FYI on my driving history... I've never driven anything but a manual transmission in the 4 cars (including my TSX) I've ever owned; making my time behind the wheel at 13 yrs.

fdl

Not to take this thread on to a tangent, but my question about the heel-toe stuff is this:

On the one hand I have read that it is bad to rev the engine when its not under load. Acura has even put in a rev limit of 5000 rpms when stoped and in neutral to protect the engine.

Now if we are driving aggressively, and need to rev match at 4000, 5000, or evenhigher rpms...is this not bad for the engine? YOu are revving it while not under load (clutch it depressed).

Dan Martin

fdl, you have to heel toe if you are downshifting into a gear that will bring you close to the redline. If you don't, you'll probably lock up the wheels and cause huge wear on the clutch. Its true that the engine will have an unbalanced load but only for a fraction of a second.

amurobo

Dan, can you please do us a fravour by teaching us how did you do your heel toe? Step by step?

I dream I can do what you can do but I just can't and don't know the proper way I watched Best Motoring and I think they have crazy foot! haha

Please share you heel-toe experience with us so we can shift like automatic, I love that smooth feeling more than anything else

Thanks Dan!

MoFocker

oh my god... do you see what I mean about going 10 miles off topic?! Dont get me wrong, I appreciate all the help and suggestions, otherwise i wouldnt visit the boards...

On one note, I think Bass thinks im talking about upshifting... I do notice that the throttle in the txs's tranny holds rpm in place a little when you first depress the cluth (as opposed to most other cable throttles that drop instantly). I know some people dont like this, but I sure do... It makes shifting easier and smoother in my opinion.

What I mean about blippin the gas is this: When im downshifting at a low speed such as 30 or less, I am usually semi braking and semi moving, so I depress the clutch, give it a little gas to get the rpm's up, and choose the next lowest gear. As any MT driver knows, this is called rev matching and helps for a smoother shift.

What im talking about, is when im going like 65 in 6th gear, and i want to slow down to lets say 50 or 45 and be in 5th gear, I dont press the clutch in, blip the gas, then put the car in 5th... Instead, what Ive been doing is driving, pressing the clutch, only that instead of immediatly releasing my foot from the gas as the clutch is being depressed, I will do it a second later so that the rpms jump up a notch or two, THEN downshift.

Like I said ive driven MT all my life, and never really tried this method before. It seems like if anything, its better for the MT, bc it causes the clutch to be depressed for a lot less time, its a smoother shift, and it doesnt cause the risk of not getting the revs high enough or getting them too low when doing the downshift. I was basically jsut wondering, if it was ok for the car or is it harmful to the car. In my opinion, it seems like its the best way, but theres always something im not sure of which is what you guys are all for. Thanks again

Dan Martin

Come out to our next meet and I'll give you a lesson.

Seriously, it just takes practice. This is a pretty good article that can explain it better than I can: http://www.modernracer.com/tips/heelandtoeshifting.html

Hope that helps...

MoFocker

HOWEVER that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of this thread, as Im not asking how to heel-toe... But, thats a damn good article. I always knew the basics of how to heel-toe but even when I read it on paper it always seemed too confusing to learn. That article actually explains it really good for whoever still doesnt know. I might just give it a shot now that I seem to understand the process more. Thanks

amurobo

Thanks Dan! its a good article. One thing I am always confuse is that when you press the break before going into a corner, you always press it light (not a hard break) but then when you step on the gas padel, you step it harder for a split second because you just want to rev to go high in a short amount of time. Then how can your right foot control both soft and hard power at the same time?

I tried a couple of times and at the end, it's always the case that I pressed the break too hard and it became a hard stop

Thanks again for your article! hehe

Dan Martin

That's where the practice part comes in amurobo! You've got the right idea. Just use the ball of your foot for the braking and roll to the right to work the gas. The ball of your foot shouldn't move while blipping the throttle. It will all come with time....

Sorry for the threadjacking mrcenzo!

amurobo

Thanks Dan!

I wish I can come to your meeting but I'm live in Toronto :P

Where do you guys meet anyways? I feel bad to keep jacking this thread...sorry guys

biker

mrcenzo, from the sounds of it that won't make much difference. You might have to replace your clutch at 210,000 mi instead of 200,000. If you take a survey, I'd venture to guess that either something goes drastically wrong somehwere else or most folks will get more than 100,000 mi out of their clutch. With few exceptions there's probably no one on this board that has ever held on to a car long enough (from new) to even replace a clutch under normal circumstances.

moda, biking in Switzerland is a pleasure just like driving a cage because most folks know how to drive properly. Bikers unfortunately get a bum rap due to a few idiots that make the news. I do it simply because it's a much easier commute - lane splitting is the norm (and cagers move over to ease lane splitting - unlike the US where they try to run you over). Being able to ride up and down some fine roads in the Alps is just a bonus that comes with the territory. BTW, if you think TBW makes a difference you should experience the difference between a bike with carbs and a newer fuel injected one. Within a couple of weeks I won't remeber how to drive the ever-parked dust-ladden car.

moda_way

Yeah, my first bike I ever drove was a Suzuki Kantana. When I went to test drive the 2002-03 Ducati 998, I was definitely shocked. Especially since the Ducati is a direct-port fuel injection. VERY IMPRESSIVE and VERY DIFFERENT.

Must admit, I'm rather envious of your commute. I have a straight shot into work on the highway, however the highway is under construction for repairs/improvements. Nothing but crappy roadway the whole way into work. Every morning I sit back and start counting the rocks that hit my car.

biker

Actually even in the cage the commute is only 20 min for 10 miles along back roads next to farms. Of course this past week during the car show that could easily reach 1 hour. Road work is also an on going thing here but not to the scale of the US.

Whenever I get to the office after a tougher than usual commute (which is still light compared to the typical US one) one look at this and it reminds me to not complain:



It's my favorite spot overlooking Lake Geneva from a usually closed military road.

Then when I get bored of that I hop on my other bike:


and all of my worries are gone...

Biker, who does blip a little on his older bike, but with 13,000 rpms to work with, who wouldn't.