dom

Yesterday's thread about Honda decesion to use the Euro-R in place of the Integra (RSX) for racing got me thinking.

What do you think is the best engine to ever be made by Honda?
Here's the top few I can think of, but if you feel I left any out or added one that should'nt be there, lets hear why.

And the nominations are:

S2000 (00 to 03)
2.0L I4
240 HP @8300RPM
153 lb-ft @7500RPM

S2000 (04)
2.2L I4
240 HP @7800RPM
162 lb-ft @ 6500RPM

NSX
3.2L V6
290 HP @ 7100RPM
224 lb-ft @ 6600RPM

Integra Type R (97 to 01)
1.8L I4
195 HP @8000RPM
130 lb-ft @7500RPM

Integra Type R / Accord Euro R
2.0L I4
220 HP @8000RPM
145 lb-ft @6000RPM (I may be incorrect on that tourque figure)

Honda Prelude (97-02)
2.2L I4
200 HP @ 7000RPM
156 lb-ft @ 5250

Acura TL (04)
3.2L V6
270 HP @6200RPM
238 lb-ft @5000RPM

Acura TSX
2.4L I4
200 HP @6800RPM
166 lb-ft @4500RPM


My favorite is the 00-03 S2000 2.0L. Its Honda technology as its finest. Sure it had no tourque and sure its been replaced here in North America. But it loved to rev and showcased what Honda's all about. And there must be a reason their sticking with that same engine in Europe and Japan instead or switching to the 2.2L. The B18C5 of the 97-01 ITR comes in a close second in my book.


PS. I think there may have been a more powerful version of the Preludes 2.2L over in Japan but I left it off as I was unable to locate any information on the engine.

Buff-Daddy

How can you argue against the NSX? Just look at the numbers! Sure, most of us will never get to drive one, but My vote is still for the...

NSX
3.0L V6
290 HP @ 7100RPM
252 lb-ft @ 6600RPM

fdl

I wanted to vote for the 1.7 l 115 hp fromt he civic but I couldnt find it on the list




Actually in all seriousness, mabe the hybrid engine should be on the list.

DEVO

as a proud owner of a 00 S2000... my vote is that engine. I like the 04 as well but I don't own one of those

duugk

How about Ayrton Senna's world championship McLaren-Honda. Or in production now the BAR Honda, that'd be my vote. ~18,000 RPM sounds good to me.

dom

It must be a production engine so no F1 ot Cart engines allowed. And fdl, do you really think the 1.3L 85 HP engine should be on the list? Remeber the Civic Htbrid is what it is because of the 13HP electric motor that goes with it, but its not 1 engine. Or should it be considered as one engine?

Buff-Daddy, yes the NSX has great numbers and you have every right to give it your vote. But the S2000 gets my vote because its what Honda technology is all about. Extracting as much power as possible out of an engine.

NSX - 96.6 HP per litre
S2000 - 120 HP per litre




fdl do me a favour. Can you edit the poll. Where it says "02 ITR / 03 Euro R 2.2L" can you change that to say 2.0L. Thanks.

larchmont

I agree with B-D -- How can it not be the NSX? Except, who's been in one? So in honesty I think almost all of us have to say


P.S. Reminds me of that time a few months ago when Apple compared one of their products to the TSX in one of their reports (may have been the annual report), using it as the ultimate example of a top-of-the-line kind of thing. Some of us TSX'ers were feeling pretty good about that. Until I said they probably meant NSX, which I think they did.

fdl

I guess I was thinking of the entire drivetrain as a whole. I wouldnt vote for it, but from an engineering standpoint is it quite an achievement.

ecsw

Prelude gets my vote. It's an affordable smaller engine yet at the almost same out level of TSX has a few years ago.

Sure S2000 or NSX engine are very nice, but they are also expensive. IMO, HONDA are known to giving you the most for the least money and I think Prelude deserve that very well. Not to mention the resale value of it. I have a friend who had 80,000km on his Prelude for 4 years and yet when re-selling it, he lost only 25% of the value. Anyway, it's just my 2 cents.

dom

I was thinking the same thing ecsw. The Prelude engine is definently nice. But I recently had the opportunity to drive my TSX back to back with my friends 01 SH and I was amazed how rough and unrefined the Prelude was compared to the TSX. I know thats not fair as the Preludes engine is a 97 design to the TSX 03 design.

Another reason I can't give it my vote is because back when I got my 98 GS-R when I was 21 I raced Preludes all the time. And I constantly won. And thats when I was stock. After I got I/E/H is was no contest Maybe I was a good driver maybe the other guys were bad, I'm not sure but I lost a bit of respect for the Lude back then.

In fact I was thinking of putting the 1.8L GS-R engine in the poll, but its plainly obvious that the B18C5 engine was far superior.

leftride

iTrader: (1)

I vote s2000 2.0, I remember when that first came out and my jaw just dropped 240hp out of a 2 liter, now thats cool!

justinjsw

What some of you forget is the NSX powerplant is what kicked off this whole VTEC evolution. So its hard to compare the 2.0/S2000 engine to the 15+yr old design of the VTEC V6 of the NSX. That engine was WAY ahead of its time. Having driven the S2000 and owned a NSX-T ...my vote goes to the 3.0/3.2L DOHC VTEC V6.

Domn the NSX has a 3.2L not a 3.0L. The 3.0L didn't produce 290HP. And the Torque is 224@5500 RPMs not 252. The 3.2L debuted in 97.

The 2.0/2.2L VTEC in the S2000 is an evolution of what Honda has learned over the yrs from their VTEC studies. The 3.0 VTEC was a revolution...very first of its kind. And its amazing how this engine has held its own over 15 yrs. Of course the evolution continues with the 2nd generation NSX.

onenonlieTSX

I'm partial to B series engines because I worked extensively on one in my Civic (B16A2)... So my vote goes to the ITR motor B18C1 or B18C5. Nuttin like good ol VTEC!

dom

I was lookin a old specs when I was writing this up. And I mixed up Tourque with the HP of the Auto. fdl can you change the poll to read "NSX 3.2L V6" and also change the '02 ITR/Euro R 2.2L" to read 2.0L

You bring up some good points Justin especially about the fact that NSX started the whole Vtec revolution. But let me also adjust my stats.

NSX-T - 90.62 HP per litre
S2000 - 120 Hp per litre




Thanks oneonlineTSX I forgot that the ITR engine code was B18C5 and the GS-R's was C1, I thought it was just C.

justinjsw

I would vote the S2000 2.0L as the best 4 Cyl...but not best EVER by Honda.

dom

If the rumours of a 3.6L 450 HP NSX for 05 are true, the results of this poll will be drastically changed anyway.

http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=178241

justinjsw

Well let me save you the time now. Course its not true.

dom

Granted 450 sounds very far fetched but Honda better come to the table with at least 400 or don't come at all. Its not a matter of performance as I'm sure a 350 HP NSX weighing 3000 lbs will perform admirably but these days 400 HP is the entrance minimum and most would'nt take 350 HP seriously.

crisco

When you compare these engines to each other and across the range of competitors, the thing that stands out is the incredible hp:engine displacement ratio of the S2000's 2.0L. Not sure how the latest edition compares yet however.

DEVO

I agree, it's an incredible engine from an engineering standpoint. Instant on/off, shutting off 3 cyl while cruising, IMA... couple all that to a CVT and it's a marvel of engineering.

dom

The new 2.2L engine in the S2000 is apparently alot better than the outgoing 2.0L. Peak Tourque is available 1000RPM's sooner and the 8 lf-ft more. Apparently the difference in performance is not huge but the 2.2L does have a noticeable advantage at higher speeds and is much easier to live with in every day driving.

But there's still nothing like driving a motorcycle with 4 wheels and there nothing like a 2.0L S2000 hitting V-tec.

DEVO

Not to mention the 2.2 hp rating is conservatively low... i don't know the exact number but there is an article at TOV.

justinjsw

Yeah yeah...till you drive the 3.2L V6 hitting VTEC and watching your RPMs climb past 7000...again the 2.0L is an evolution...the 3.0L was a revolution. The NSX changed the sports car world. My vote stands.

Buff-Daddy

Do you have stats on the overall performance of each vehicle? I agree that it is impressive what they get out of that 2ltr engine, but I am more interested in what that engine allows each vehicle to do. I am aware that there is far more technology and higher end performance parts in the NSX, I am just curious...

TinkySD

the f22 in the new s2200 is a sick little monkey. They had a dyno test of it on vtec.net..put down like 20hp more than the last generation and below 5k rpm it put down like 20lbft more torque across the band. Imageine what they could do with an i-vtec k22.

dom

The overall performance of the NSX is definently superior.

0-60 - 5 sec
1/4 mile - 13.6

The S2000 is more around 5.5 sec to 60 and 14-14.2 in the 1/4. So yes, I guess the NSX's 3.2L is the best when it comes to performance, clearly. But I guess I was lookig at more than just pure performance when I statred this thread. The 97-01 ITR engine is a very close second IMO to the 2.0L S2000.

Driving that ITR and hitting V-TEC is intoxincating. Its greatness can't be fully measured in 0-60 times.

AcuraFan

Yes, the NSX has better performance numbers but in my opinion, there's more to a car's performance than it's engine...you still have to take into account weight, gearing, etc. So when it comes to just the engine itself, I'm sticking with the 2.0 from the S2000 because it's hp/ltr ratio and the way it sings when it gets close to the sky-high redline. A close second is the hybrid from the Civic because of how technologically efficient it is. My

TinkySD

I think the original f20c engine is great, but to me it's tempered by the fact the k20a2 from the rsx with bolt ons(intake/exhaust/header/ecu) puts down more power and torque to the ground. the s2000 motor reponds very poorly to mods. For pure production it's pretty fantastic though.

TinkySD

didnt' one of the old b16a crank 160 hp?

Arcticcl9

Yes, the b16a cranked 160hp, it was in the old Civic Si (coupe form in US). I wanted to get one of those engine and drop it into a DA1 (first gen Integra). Back then, DA1 cost less than 3k, and the engine roughly 2-3k. Cheap and high performance!

But, I'm glad I got the TSX now, I'm sure a lot of stuff would be falling apart from an 87 Integra

sauceman

This is exactly what I was wondering today: was it an F22 or a K22? Then now, I guess it's an F22C?

If it were to be a K22, you could probably expect 250Hp at 8000 rpm. This would be a lovely engine for the TSX.

I voted the K24A2 because of the unbelievable piston speeds it reaches. And it's supposed to be reliable and last for 400,000km. (I'll know for sure, in 6 yrs I should be at 500,000km).

dom

Hmmm 10 people voted TSX's 2.4L but only one, Sauceman cared to expalin himself. I betting one of those other votes was from our freindly neigbourhood Larchmont. The other 8 were probly all bias.

I was really thinking of leaving the K24 TSX motor off the poll but its a tsx forum so...........

How could 10 people give it the nod as Honda best ever? I'm serious, how? Top 5 maybe.

sauceman

And I am ready to debate my opinion, because I also believe the F20C is an amazing engine. I am also very curious about the S2200's engine. If anyone has more details about the fabrication of this engine, please post away!

dom

Here's my very unknowlegeable argument against the K24 being Honda's best. Please keep in my I know little about the intracacies of engines but I can get by.

K24 - 83.3 HP per litre. Not much by Honda standards.

Nissan manages to push 180 lb-ft out of the VQ25 in the Altima and Sentra SE-R while Honda is still back at 166? I realize, that our peak tourque may come sooner and last over a broader range, but I guess I was just expecting more out of a Honda. 225HP and 175-180 lb-ft would IMO have been more befitting of its engine size. Especially considering the 200HP 2.2L and 220HP 2.0L egines already available.

AcuraFan

Well, I voted for the original S2000. But I think there are a few valid points to be brought up about the TSX's K24...sure, the hp/liter ratio isn't as high but it's also a much more refined engine...the level of refinement coming out of a "4 banger" surprises a lot of people. Also, like you said, it's light on torque but it has a very flat torque curve...that in itself is quite an accomplishment in an engine that small...IMO.

sauceman

Yeah. Well, and I'm sure Tinky is very knowledgable about this also, so he could add his input too, but the root of the problem is the Bore/Stroke ratio. The TSX's has a very long stroke. This combined with the proper head elements allows it to make decent torque down low while being able to make the power all the way up to 7400rpm, which is, to my knowledge, the highest revving 99mm stroke production engine in the world as of now.

Getting the K24A2 to make 180lbs-ft is no biggie, but that means also you will not make much power beyond 5500rpm, and no power beyond 6000 rpm, given the same B/S ratio.

Now I don't know much about the Nissan's 2.5L, but unless it is a big bore engine (92mm+), there is no way on earth this engine is making power all the way up like the K24A2. If it is a big bore engine, then you're not comparing apples together.

There is also the fact that, for its capabilities, the K24A2 is an incredibly fuel efficient engine, not to also mention it's LEV2 compliant.

All of this put together in the same package is an awesome compromise, IMO.

Saintor_RENAMED

I picked the TL 2004 3.2L engine.

With 35% more power at 270HP, it consumes only 5% more fuel in city than the TSX!!!! Its rich sound can not be duplicated by a 4 cyl. engine.

The next one would be the base 2.4L DOHC of the Accord. Runs on regular, chain-driven and pratically matches the level of performance of the TSX. Also, its fuel economy is 10% better than the 2.3L 150HP SOHC it replaces and the car is 10% faster. Talk about an achievement.

dom

More good reason's not to give the vote to the K24 in the TSX.
But the TL's 3.2 should'nt be considered either, with the 3.2L in the NSX making even more HP.

The fact that the TSX's K24 does not significantly improve performance wise with the K24 in the Accord is a great reason it should not be considered one of the best. That and the fact that fuel economy is substantially less in the TSX than in the Accord.

tsx-mdxman

You have "issues," DOMN. The K24 engine in the TSX rocks. What would you be saying here if Honda merely put the Acccord I4 in the TSX? Would you still call it a superior engine? There IS a difference in performance and refinement between the two. I am starting to wonder if you wouldn't personally be better off with an EX V6 6MT or one of the Mitsubishi or Subaru rice rockets.

justinjsw

The 2.4L as Hondas best EVER....you guys have got to be kidding me. Only in a TSX forum will this happen. Talking about not trying to be biased...yeah right.