Belzebutt

I just went on the subaru.ca website. Doesn't come with a lot of pictures or info on the options, or is it that there are no options you can add on the models? When I go to price a model it just gives me the base price, that's it, can't customize it.

Does the GT or GT Ltd come with navigation? It's not listed in the interior specs.

Anyway, if I compare vs my TSX, I notice a few things:
- The standard Legacy GT (auto) is already $3000 more than a TSX ($34,800), base price, which would have really stretched my price range.
- The GT doesn't come with a moonroof. I would nevery pay $38,000 for a car without a moonroof. Since I can't add the option on the website I can only assume I need to go to the GT Ltd, which is $41,800. That's $7000 more than the TSX!!
- Leather: need to get the $41,800 GT Ltd
- Power seat: need to get the $41,800 GT Ltd
- The styling is different. I happen to like the TSX a lot more, even though I think the GT is a nice-looking car. So it would be hard for me to justify paying so much more for a car that I don't like as much.

So basically, to get leather and sunroof, which would have been the minimum for me in any car of this price, I need to pay a LOT more for the Subaru, and I'm getting a car that doesn't look as good IMO. No deal.

Other features that I didn't see listed on the Subaru page:
- Dimming rear-view mirror
- Exterior temperature guage
- No folding seats! Only armrest. That's a big no-no for me.

Of course, the extra money for the Subaru actually goes to pay for the extra 250 hp and lots of extra torque, which some people need. I don't, so I'm not ready to pay for it.

I've been hearing that the interior in the TSX is of higher quality, I haven't seen the GT myself but I didn't even like Audi and BMW interiors so I'll just take a guess that I'd probably prefer the TSX's.

The auto sport-shift transmission on the TSX is the best I've ever tried. The one on the GT Ltd would have to be pretty damn good to convince me to get it.

Finally, as someone mentioned, the fuel economy on the TSX seems to be noticably better, if the numbers on Subaru's website are comparable with the EPA numbers I have for the TSX. The GT is not on the EPA website yet so I can't compare. Every time I gas up my TSX I feel like I really wouldn't want my car to be any less fuel-efficient, and both it and the GT use premium gas.

So from a performance point of view, I understand why the GT would win. It's 2 seconds faster to 60 and comes with AWD!

When it comes to everything else, the TSX beats it, IMO.

dom

I meant in the R&T test.



But don't use blanket statements like this either.

dom

You and I can shake hands. X 100 I pretty much brought up the same point on page 1 but not with nearly as much detail. A similary equipped LGT is 7K more in Canada. Thats a huge advantage TSX IMO. But then again going to 60 in 5.6 sec and throught the 1/4 mile in 14.2 might be worth 7K to some.

jcg878

Dan Martin

Slalom is a better yardstick to measure handling than skidpad. Unfortunately slalom really only measures turn in speed and balance of the car. The numbers are close for both cars through the slalom so both should be fairly equal when coming into a corner but the LGT will get to put the power down a lot earlier than the TSX for the corner exit.

dom

Hypocrite

fdl

OK let me rephrase. The LGT is definately faster in a straight line and definatley has AWD, but thats where the definite advantages over the TSX end.

dom

You should have bought a LGT, big mistake.

fdl

If it was out when i got my TSX, I would have seriously considered it. And who knows what would have happened

biker

To make it a more apples-apples comparison, one should wait for the 05 TSX. While not many, the additional features of the 05 might tip the scale for some folks.

Driver72

Sorry, but no.

If you think a TSX will keep up with a Legacy GT on ANY racetrack in this world, you are sadly mistaken. If you think a TSX would get through a windy canyon road as fast as a LGT you are sadly mistaken.
IF you think a TSX can accelerate around a corner as fast as the LGT, you are sadly mistaken.
IF you think a TSX will be as stable and controlling in the rain you are sadly mistaken.
If you think a TSX will be as stable and secure in the snow as the LGT you are sadly mistaken.

Sorry, but you've apparently (obviously) never driven the LGT. I'm NOT just talking about straight line performance. You can look at skidpad numbers or slalom numbers until you are blue in the face....though the TSX scores equally (better in one mag, worse in another) than the LGT in those tests, they don't convey real world conditions.

There is NO situation where a TSX driver will better an equally skilled driver in an LGT in any performance contest. You are silly and foolish to think otherwise. Just like I or any other person would be silly or foolish to think the LGT's interior is as nice as the TSX's.

Do yourself a favor, go drive the LGT, find a curvy road in your neighborhood, throw the car down it.
Run the RPM's up to 3-4K and let the clutch out and the hammer down AROUND a corner and then come back and honestly tell me that the LGT only has an advantage in a straight line.


I don't want to get into a car bashing contest here, that's not the point. I didn't come to this forum to troll either. As I said, there's a LARGE chance that I will also own a TSX in the next month or so as my fiance loved the car. But I will have NO delusional thoughts that the only performance advantage the LGT has over the TSX is in a straight line.
The TSX handles nice, it's got a great steering feel, a great shifter.
But it lacks the power and AWD to compete with the Legacy GT in ANY real world or track (whether that be racetrack, dirt track, or snow/ice track) competition...period!l

Driver72

I agree.

The Legacy GT should be tested with:

Honda Accord EX V6
Toyota Camry SE
Nissan Altima SE V6
VW Passat V6 (AWD)

and even a few domestics if they choose like

Pontiac Grand Prix GTP

All are from "non premium" name plates in the $27-30K price range.

jcg878

meh

dom

Some food for thought driver72.

http://www.acura-tsx.com/forums/show...highlight=S60R

The TSX (187 HP Accord Type S actually) has a better lap time than the 300HP AWD Volvo S60R.

This is not to say the TSX would be quicker than the LGT, just goes to show you what the FWD TSX is capable of.

jcg878

I agree. This makes more sense to me, particularly since the majority of Legacies sold will not be GTs anyway.

Dan Martin

It certainly would be an interesting race but I'd still put my money on the LGT.

I wonder if Subaru has any plans on entering the LGT in the Speed GT series next year? I think that would be pretty cool.

Driver72

I gotta say, it's nice to see a moderator on this board have the open mind you have.
It's the point I've been trying to make for a couple days now.
I've driven both cars TWICE and don't own either, but will mostly likely own BOTH soon enough.
I've been trying to be as unbiased as possible, but it's hard to keep composure when you have biased people on this board bashing the Legacy GT and they haven't even seen the darn thing in person, much less drive it.
I can honestly say, after driving the car, there is not another car for $29K that will offer the all around excellence of the Legacy GT Limited. It's got plenty of luxury and nice enough fit and finish to justify it's price. It has power and performance to humilate cars costing twice as much. It has AWD, it will most likely have Subaru's high crash test scores, and their higher than average reliability record as well.
Sure it doesn't have a name that people think when thinking luxury OR performance.
Well with the WRX and WRX STI that's changine quickly.

But I wish more people on this board would just go take it for a test drive, you see it's great.

Oh and one other thing about the price.
With all the options I ordered, my MSRP came to $29,973 (includes the STI short throw shifter kit)
But since the car is so new and Subaru really wants to get it out there, they are offering the dealerships a 3% holdback. Which in this case is $899.
Therefore, the dealerships are selling the Legacy GT's for slightly over invoice.
The more they move, the more holdbacks (kickbacks) they get.

I got my car for $27,449 which is $100 over INVOICE and I didn't even need to negotiate with a salesperson. With the holdback the dealer made $1000 for a 10 minute phone call. I called up Subaru asked for the sales manager told him what I wanted and asked for the best price I could. He GAVE me that price. And after talking with others, they've all gotten their's for $100-500 over invoice as well.

No Acura dealer is going to do that, I'm sure.

Driver72

Again, I know the TSX is a capable handler.
That test is a bit off since it appeared by their comments that they couldn't get the Volvo to handle well, and the driver didn't even know it was AWD, but thought it was FWD.

Also, the S4 probably would of had an even faster time, but they mentioned the stability control kept them from pushing it too hard.

No, the TSX is very capable. Like the LGT, it would and DOES drastically improve simply by spending $500 on a better set of tires.
Firming the TSX suspension up, giving it better tires and there's no doubt it would improve greatly...but same can be said about the LGT.

What the TSX needs is another 30 hp and more importantly 30 more ft-lbs of torque.

If the TSX had just that, never mind the AWD, it would of been the car I ordered!

dom

Acura would tell you to buy the TL

dzuy

legacy vs tsx? who cares. i don't.

STL

That really depends on what you are used to driving AND what you are looking for in a sedan. I'm not saying that I don't wish the TSX had a little more torque and HP (via a higher redline), but wouldn't say the car needs that. The TSX was never intended to be a track car nor was it intended to be a stoplight racer, but instead it is a very well rounded, nimble sedan.

STL

BTW, I am actually glad the LGT won the R&T comparo becuase if I do decide to get a TSX I can use that when making a deal.

jcg878

3% holdbacks are common. I believe Acura's is 3% (justin?). I think the Legacy is going for just above invoice because it isn't selling well - worse than last years model this past August. This fact mystifies me, since it's obviously a superior car to its predecessor.

It's kind of funny to me that your fiancee wants a TSX, because every now and again I try to convince my wife to get an Outback

jlukja

It may work against you. Dealer will tell you that demand has gone up and, therefore, the price.

STL

I mistyped TSX when I meant LGT. I fixed in in the original post (but not your quote of crouse).

Driver72

The reason I said "need" is because the TSX kind of falls in the middle performanc wise.
It's not a "slow" car, but not a "fast" car either.
The 30 extra HP and torque would put it into the "very quick" category.
But, of course, if they did that, they'd need an additional $1,000 in the price.
And Acura won't do it because it would most likely take too many sales away from the Honda Accord EX-V6.

I mean really, who'd buy the Honda if the TSX had it's 3.0 V6 in it...even if it was "detuned" a bit to make only 230 hp and say 205 ft-lbs torque.

What Acura should do is offer a TSX-S
The 2.4 liter can be massaged up to 230 hp and say 175ish ft-lbs of torque.
Add a stiffer supension, bigger but lighter brakes, and better tires. Some more aggressive styling and then add $1,000-1,500 to the price tag. That would be a pretty hot seller.

It probably still wouldn't take a LGT in acceleration contests, but it would drop it's acceleration times in the mid 6's to 60 and high 14's in the 1/4 mile.
That then would make for a better enthusiasts car.

Oh well.

Like the one poster said, it's
to keep comparing these cars....they're clearing targeted to two different people.
They only have price and size in common really. But we could say that about dozens of cars.

STL

Here again you seem to focus solely on straight line performance. I myself put more emphasis on handling.

BTW, I think it has been stated that the Accord V6 won't fit in the (more narrow) TSX. What I expect Acura to do -- down the road in a couple years -- is to offer a Type-"something" version of the TSX that incorporates IMA but with the induction motors on the rear wheels.

fdl

You continue to tout the LGT as a different car targeting at the "enthusiast" and you keep using the term performance too loosely. The TSX is just as much an "enthusiast" car and I think is targeted at the exact same person (which explains the interest in the debate). Its performance is exceptional, about even in handling and braking with with LGT (close enough!). The TSX also has some further advantages such as a much better transmission, which would appeal to the "enthusiast"., as well as a better chassis (according to C&D)

Here are the scores from C&D on the chassis comparison

performance- TSX 10, LGT 8
steering feel- TSX 9, LGT 8
brake feel- TSX 9, LGT 8
handling- TSX 9, LGT 8
ride- TSX 10, LGT 8
TOTAL- TSX 47, LGT 40

Yes, the TSX is not a fast car, but that doesnt make it less of an enthusianst choice. Its performance is still great, just not in acceleration. Just because one mag (or some people on this site) values accleration over everyting else, doesnt etch any conclusions in stone.

The TSX is arguably a better car, even in performance. Deal with it.

jcg878

:padlock:

xizor

Hmm.. 230 isn't possible without some serious modifications like the S2000 compression ratio etc. And don't we already make 175ft/lb of torque?

xizor

right on the money. Enthusiast means rice rocket to Subby fans. "I have more power, therefore I enjoy cars." No you enjoy power. Enthusiast to others means loving to drive your car, hearing the engine redline, shifting smoothly, enjoying the interior of car as well as going fast and turning. To me its about the experience, and one reason I absolutely love driving my car. I haven't driven a LGT, but I see it as too one sided to give that experience (an experience C&D found in the TSX which they constantly praise as a driver's car).

I'd be happy to test drive an LGT, but I can already see it being like my friend's Evo. It can rip off the line and do insane things, but the transmission is horribly choppy, the materials inside are bad and remind you its an econobox, and the ride is simply unpleasant. Its a poor experience IMO. I still want one to race it, but for an everyday car, I'd pass. This is where cars like Porshe etc. excel, they give you an experience. The performance is there, but its more than the sum of the parts. Simply the TSX cannot be described just by numbers.

ClutchPerformer

x 1000

Driver72

Why don't you admit it.....you've NEVER driven the Legacy GT.
You talk is baseless.
You're ONLY arguement is what the old farts at Car and Driver listed.
Here's what R & T ranked.

Driving excitement....TSX 18.8-------LGT 20.0
Engine......................TSX 16.5-------LGT 20.0
Ride.........................TSX 18.8-------LGT 20.0
Seats........................TSX 8.8--------LGT 10.0
Handling...................TSX 20.0-------LGT 20.0
Gearbox...................TSX 20.0-------LGT 14.1 (and the LGT didn't have the optional STI short throw shifter on this car either, which owners have said greatly improves the shifting ad shifting feel. It's only $230)
Steering...................TSX 20.0-------LGT 17.6
Brakes.....................TSX 20.0-------LGT 18.8


Seems like the person who needs to "deal with" the facts is you.
You keep making your unexperienced, and untested claims about the LGT, but you haven't driven the car.
C & D scored their "chassis" performance pretty slanted. The LGT though not as "crisp" feeling handlies every bit as well as the TSX....so how exactly does C & D say the performance of the TSX chassis deserves a 10, yet the LGT a 7
How do they say the ride of the TSX is a 10 but the LGT an 8

When I speak of "performance" I'm speaking in general RESULTS not "feel"
Car and Driver was WAY off base in some of their scoring.
As you probably have seen, I scored the way C & D did and the TSX "won" for me too, but only by a point.

Funny how Car and Driver gives the TSX an 8 out of 10 in Engine Output and Powertrain Performance, and gives the LGT 10 out of 10.
That's only 20% less, but there's a BIG difference in the engine performance and powertrain performance between the two cars.
Yet in Chassis Performance and Ride they give the TSX 2 more points than the LGT yet they are VERY CLOSE in those areas.
Even in the Features and Amenities section, they give the TSX a 10 the LGT a 7.
Is AWD not a Feature? That's a pretty distinctive and expensive feature to overlook in a SPORT sedan don't you think?


What it comes down to is this between these two cars:

No Legacy GT driver is going to pull up alongside or strike up a discussion in a parking lot with a TSX driver and say, "bet my interior is nicer than yours" without being laughed at for a couple reasons: 1. Who cares about who has the nicer interior and who does that anyway. 2. He'd lose

No TSX driver is going to pull up alongside or strike up a discussion at a track with a Legacy GT owner and say, "wanna race" or "bet my TSX performs better than your LGT" without being laughed at for just one reason: 1. He'd lose



It's all what matters most to you.
And since this topic has run it's course, I'm not going to continue here.
I ordered the LGT for it's performance, AWD, nice looks, nice interior, sedan practicality.
We're considering getting the TSX for my other half for it's style, nice interior, amentities, fit and finish, gas mileage, inherent Honda/Acura reputation.

When/if we get the TSX I'm sure I'll have more to discuss about the car.
But until then I'm not going to keep defending the Legacy GT to a few of you who've no basis to your bashing since you haven't even driven one.

Good day!


Oh, and to the poster who thought the TSX already had 175 ft-lbs of torque...you don't the car has 166 ft-lbs. That's what made Mr. Bornhop's comment in the R & T so absolutely hilarious when he said, ""Torque steer is not a problem."

fdl

First of all, wow you have alot of time. I couldnt even get through reading your post, let alone writing it. But you have essentially proved my point, so thanks. Take note, in your very own post that the TSX was ranked superior in steering, brakes, and transmission (handily i might add) and was a tie for handling. All of which are considered "performance" or "enthusiast" categories. So I rest my case. You claim that the TSX is not an enthusiast car, or is not a performance car, and this is still baseless and a matter of your own opinion. I say that the TSX is arguably (please read slowly ...ARGUABLY) a beter car even by performance standards. I never said it WAS DEFINATELY a better performing car. Its a matter of opinion ... but to jump to the conclusion that the TSX falls short in performance solely on the fact that straight line accelration is lacking is a foolish argument to make. Your definition of "performance" is extremely narrow, but I understand you want to justify your purchase. I understand.

I'll give you an example. at vtec.net they did a comparison test through twisting roadds with both a TSX and V6 accord. Guess which one they liked better?

P.S. the TSX DOES have 175 ftlbs of torque; the marketing stats are under rated and we have dynos to prove it. SO time to do a little research yourself

P.S.S. Thanks for the argument. I love a good debate! Good luck with your purchase.

Lung Fu Mo Shi

Reposted with a few special additions. I've been watching the hurricane stuff too long obviously.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

I will personally go and test drive the Legacy GT to end this silly debate. With my experience drivings all kinds of cars on and off the track, I think I'm qualified enough to give an enthusiasts impression perspective on the Legacy GT and compare it to my TSX.

Belzebutt

Well, there is such a thing as "feel", and it falls under performance.

xizor had it exactly right when he said acceleration is just one part of performance. I personally love to take coners fast, shift gears (if I hadn't had to buy an auto ), hear the engine roar, etc. Racing someone in a straight line is just one part of that. The GT wins there. But in the other areas the TSX, according to both reviews, seems either equal or superior.

The TSX guy probably cares

You have a point there.

You're right, but I don't think the TSX is geared towards people who would pull alongside other people and say "wanna race".


It's all what matters most to you.
And since this topic has run it's course, I'm not going to continue here.
I ordered the LGT for it's performance, AWD, nice looks, nice interior, sedan practicality.
We're considering getting the TSX for my other half for it's style, nice interior, amentities, fit and finish, gas mileage, inherent Honda/Acura reputation.

waTSX

ROFLMAO!

jcg878

Judge Reinhold is right! This thread makes me want to go back to work.

fdl

this thread rocks


Driver is making up for gilbo's absense.