Dan Martin

Couldn't say it any better than that.

BlackTSXer

now lets wait till we get some turbo kits out for the tsx...

we all know what turbos did to previous b series engines.. hopefully we'll see more of the same with k series engines..

bgillette

1. no it doesnt take 7.8 seconds

2. who the hell drives cars in a straight line? Subaru does whatever it takes to make their numbers better. You give me a TSX on a road course....and it will HOLD ITS OWN against any crappy Subaru. And while the TSX stays neck and neck with that peice of junk....we can sit in an interior that is NICER than BMW and Benz.....rather than sitting in a KIA like interior

and one more thing.....when i go to trade in the TSX...I KNOW FOR A FACT i'll get a better deal that trading in some crappy subaru

ok ok...LAST THING!!! Have you looked at the 2 cars side by side? the TSX looks like a Prom queen, and the Subaru looks like a DRAG QUEEN

BlackTSXer

wow a bit harsh there ..

but seriously, the legacy gt is still a sweet car IMO.. I just think the TSX is better overall and has tons of potential...

jcg878

Wow, you're such an ambassador of goodwill in cardom

mjhnational

Easy there bgillette,

Be careful what you say if you do not have any information to back yourself up. My wife and I bought both a TSX and Legacy GT (best of both worlds). I selected the GT while my wife chose the TSX for the comfort. The legacy GT will out-perform a TSX on most road courses given that they have similar tires. It has been proven time and time again that all wheel drive dominates both rally and rally-cross events. The all wheel drive will accelerate out the turns without slipping. The power difference between two is noticable. Although the TSX does accelerate a little smoother.

As for the interior of the two, I do like the TSX interior more. It is a little more refined. However, I would not even consider putting the Legacy's interior in the same class as a kia. I don't even think that the TSX interior is much better. Test drive the cars yourself and you will see.

All and all, I think the argument between the cars is very similar to that between auto and manual transmissions. People select manuals for performance, others select automatics for comfort.

mjhnational

Also,

In regards to resale. Since the WRX and RSX were used in the previous argument, I might as well use them as well. They both sell for about $23,500. The WRX has a higher MSRP, but typically sells for closer to invoice. If you look at the Kelly Blue Book values for the '02 models of both, you will find:

WRX: $16,860
RSX-S:$17,195

Really not much of a difference. So please, next time you want to make an argument, do some research.

fdl

AWD does not help a car turn or brake in bad weather, in fact in can make it worse (due to the extra weight). The only thing AWD helps you do in bad weather is put power down to the ground.

STL

Are you really trying to claim you can discern a few tenths of seconds by seat of the pants feel? LOL

fdl

The LGT is faster in a straight line, and has AWD. And that is where the advantages over the TSX end. I think we can all agree on that

The list of advantages the TSX has over the LGT would exceed the maximum length for posts on vbulliten, so I will refrain

mjhnational

As argument for the TSX:

Much better gas mileage.

fdl

yes, that is one of many advantages, and a point that could be overlooked.

masmole

Ding! I agree mostly. I've had 3 Audis all with quattro and I almost learned the hard way one fateful winter's day when I almost threw my S4 into an guardrail which would've given way to a hill when I spun out on summer tires. Summer tires on winter's day = duh, bad news you say. Of course it is. But my point is that in adverse road conditions, grip and ability of the tires to hold on is far more important than the added traction of all-wheel drive. As an example, AWD with summer tires in winter is far more dangerous than RWD with summer tires in winter because not only will the driver be falsely confident, but the AWD dynamics of transferring power from a wheel that has no traction to another that has even less can result in a totally unpredictable loss of control. Of course, no one in their right mind would use summer tires in wintery conditions but I'm just trying to illustrate my point. The moral of the story: The benefits of added Traction from AWD is obvious but TRACTION does not equal GRIP (as in the limits of adhesion to the road). Manufacturers that market AWD as benefit it adverse weather are in a way falsely advertising and can instill a false sense of confidence that could spell trouble (just look at all these idiots on the road with SUV's thinking they can tear around an icy road in their 5000 lb death-machines just because they have all-wheel drive). Ironically, the true benefits of all-wheel drive really shine on DRY track conditions which allow vehicles so equipped to get on the power early in a turn, apex and hold speed, and exit much faster than a Rear or front wheel drive car would. The benefits of all-wheel drive in adverse conditions can only be taken advantage of by a skilled driver in the same said track conditions and never on public roads unless you're complete idiot with no regard for anyone's safety including your own. Most people who own AWD vehicles neither have the skill or the training to actually use the added traction to save their ass... and that's a fact. The only thing most people with AWD cars do know how to utilize to their advantage is stoplight racing and beating the front wheel drive civic to their right off the line in a snow-covered road. My grandma could do that.

Driver72

Yep!
And if you've driven as many cars as I have, you can tell the difference.
Ever noticed how the auto journalists when they drive cars but don't have the opportunity to put test gear on can tell you about how fast it is, or when comparing it to a competing car will say, "it feels every bit as fast or faster than...."
It just like that.
You can argue all you want or you can go to a Subaru dealership and test drive a standard WRX, then jump in a Legacy GT...the two cars are within a few tenths of a second apart but if you can't tell the LGT is faster, I can't help you..

If your TSX suddenly lost 10-15 hp, and dropped a few tenths of a seond off it's accelerating time, you telling me you wouldn't be able to tell it wasn't running as strong?

Driver72

So you think that if the skidpad and slalom tests were performed on a wet track the TSX would of been as close to the LGT in this R & T comparo?

AWD is of course maximized by good tires too.

I should of excluded the braking test their, as long as you are braking in a straight line AWD wouldn't help much there.

Driver72

Guys both of these cars are great cars, they just have two different purposes.
There's no reason to bad mouth either.
I get the feeling, and am probably right that the guys that are bad mouthing the LGT the most are those who probably haven't driven the car, much less even seen it in person.

Those who want performance will ultimately prefer the Legacy GT.
Those who want a nice car that performs nicely but having top performance isn't their main concern or have no need or want for AWD will probably prefer the TSX.

fdl

yes, on the skidpad the awd car will hold no advantage in the wet. Its physics. On a slalom the awd car might have an advantage only if it allows the driver to accelerate.

bottom line - awd is only an advantage when your foot is on the gas pedal. In all other situations its extra weight only hurts you.

fdl

once again, you need to specify "straight line performance", because thats the only place the lgt trumps the tsx. if someone is willing to comprimise some straight line performance for a beautiful interior, honda reliability, a sweet 6 speed transmission, while maintaing supurb handling performance then the TSX may be the right choice. It was for C&D.

acoga

I totally agree. I haven't driven an LGT, but the WRX is a superb car, albeit with a completely different focus than the TSX. I've seen Vishnu-tuned WRX performing at insane levels using stock clutches. They're tough and well-engineered.

That said, they're in a totally different world in terms of refinement, NVH, and features.

But I applaud Subaru. It makes sense trying to position themselves as the high performance choice. After all, they can't try to own (in the marketing/mindshare sense) "quality"--that's Toyota/Honda territory. Mazda has "sporty" and the Koreans have "value". So to stand out, a great option for them is to go after performance, especially with their rally heritage. Lord, how I love watching those WRC Subies fly through the air!

The TSX is the car for me, now. Five years ago, it would have been the Subaru. It all depends on if you get your ya-yas by having the finest entry-level luxury car around, or a honkin' fast sedan.

Lung Fu Mo Shi

An inside look into a Subaru Legacy GT driver's life:

Here is one clip of "John" after reading the new Road and Track comparo (I also think he's a forum poster):



Man I love that pic.

TSXEuphoria

Bad driver whoever drove TSX. 15.9 seems quite slow.

biker

dom

STL

I totally agree! To prove the point, one just needs to look at what C&D said about the LGT, "The suspension rolls more than you'd expect of a performance car, and the shocks let it move. Apart from the forceful engine, there's not much sense of athletic discipline here." I guess Driver72 only cares about straight line performance -- to each his own I guess.

fdl

:imwithstupid:

Bananaairsoft

Guys, please tell me why car magazines kept doing TSX Vs Legacy GT? IMO, they are in a different class! Why not non-navi TL Vs Limited Legacy GT? That would be more interesting! A true FWD vs AWD. NA power vs Tubo power.

dom

So are you calling me stupid or agreeing with me? I only ask because you were recently unclear on how that smiley should used.

And I also agree with Bananaairsoft, these cars aren't in the same class IMO.

fdl

I'm calling you stupid


And I think these cars are in the same class. The fact that the TSX trumped the LGT in C&D should prove that. I'll say it again, straight line performance is just one thing , why are people getting so hung up on it? If I turbo charge some shitbox does that put it into a different class?

dom

Then learn how to use the damn smiley

fdl, it seems that not only did the LGT out accelerate the TSX in the R&T test but it also outhandled it (post from first page)

Now having said that C&D liked the TSX handling better so I guess there's some subjectivity there.

But the big factor in the TSX's favour IMO is this. The LGT won that test 585.1 to 578.7. Now obvioulsy the LGT won big when it came to acceleration and since the gap was so large I'm guessing thats where this victory was decided. But look how close that score is. Obviously the TSX made up alot of ground elsewhere which is saying alot since it was probly very far back after the acceleration scores were calculated.

But, I havn't seen the article so this is all speculation.

STL

I can tell you I am currently shopping for a sporty sedan, and I'm looking at both the LGT and TSX (among others). So based on that simple fact, I consider them in the same general class.

ClutchPerformer

I'll say it again: It's hilarious that the only 4-cylinders the TSX is compared to (MB C230, Saab 9-3, Volvo S40, Subaru LGT) are either turbocharged or supercharged. OF COURSE the LGT is faster. For the price of a TL it should be.

dom

Again But this I'm sure goes for the LGT guys as well.

Since I havn't even sat in one much less driven a LGT I'm keeping an open mind.

Now, for those of you that have sat in one. How would you compare it to a Mazda 6's interior? When I sat in the M6 I couldn't stand the interior/fit/materials, so I'd hope the LGT int is better or its obvious why some people prefer the TSX.

Belzebutt

Well, I live in Ottawa, a city that gets fairly snowy Canadian winters.

FWD works great in these conditions, I've owned an Accord for more than 4 years and I've driven many FWD cars in heavy winters before, and the only time I got stuck is when I was a teen doing some crazy driving and drove into a snow bank (and at that time AWD would not have saved me because the car was resting on its undercarriage ).

Anyway, what DOES help here is winter tires, and even then you only really use them a small portion of the time in the winter because all major roads are plowed and the snow melts from the traffic. In the side streets the snow does stay but you can easily get away with all-season tires if you just drive carefully (as you should with winter tires). If you get on highways during snow fall, it is safer to have winter tires but speed is very important.

AWD would only be useful in fringe conditions, like if you're driving up steep hills in snowy conditions or on very high snow. Funny story, I was driving up steep a hill getting out of a cottage's parking area with my accord (winter tires) and my car came up the first time without any problem, in reverse. My friend's AWD CRV got really stuck, driving frontwards, on all-season tires. Granted the CRV AWD sucks but it's better than my Accord's, which didn't even have traction control, and it shows you that winter tires are far better than AWD in winter conditions.

But more importantly, we don't have winter all year round, like some of us would have you believe, and most of the time we drive in dry conditions. This is the time when the extra weight and lower fuel economy of AWD gets you, and I can assure you it's the vast marjority of the time even here in Ottawa.

fdl

no it didnt, 1g is negligable. The handling and braking numbers for both cars are dead even IMO. The only big difference is the straight line accel.,

dom

Have you been in/driven an LGT?

ClutchPerformer

Probably. But the difference between power-to-weight ratios between a WRX and a LGT is only 2.96%. Your TSX example (minus 10-15 HP) represents a 5%-7.5% decrease. I'd probably notice a loss of 15HP in my car, but I'd be hard pressed to notice a 6HP decrease.

Regardless, 0-60 times don't show the LGT as being "faster" than the WRX. Not sure what the WRX's QM time is off the top of my head...

xizor

Reminds me of the Subaru/Volvo commericals which list all the exotics the WRX/Volvo Wagon are than from 0-60. Does anyone with those high class cars actually care about how fast a Subaru is? It just reiterates their all power, no class mantra.

fdl

Nope never. But on paper the handling and braking numbers are dead even. Your really stretching to say that a car x is better thandling than car y because of 1g on a skidpad. Especially considering a different result from another mag.

dom

Then


Never said the LGT is a better handler beacause of R&T. All I'm saying is R&T managed better numbers. Until we can read both articles is will be difficult to determine which car handled better. The R&T guys may have preferred the handling on the LGT? Are we just to say "so what" since C&D preferred the TSX, so it must be better? Its a subjective thing.

Problem with this thread is most people here are arguing the only thing the LGT has over the TSX is straight line acceleration. Problem is most here havn't even been in or driven a LGT and are basing this theory solely on the C&D article. Go for a drive in a LGT and THEN come back and tell us the only thing it has over the TSX is straight line speed.

fdl

I thought you did ..
So what i am saying is it would be unfair to call the LGT a better handling car, from the numbers and opinions we have seen. straight line accel, there is no doubt. handling..is close enough that we can only call it even (some one will prefer one, some will prefer the other). Same goes for braking, chassis etc. So we cant use blanket statements liek the LGT is a better performing car ...because the only thing we are sure about is that is better performing in a straight line.