Acura RL 300HP AWD and a possible Hybrid.
01-26-2004, 08:54 AM
#1
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Acura RL 300HP AWD and a possible Hybrid.
Acura plays catch-up with upcoming awd, 300 hp RL sedan
By KATHY JACKSON AND DALE JEWETT
Automotive News
Acura this fall will equip its flagship RL sedan with all-wheel drive and a 300-hp V-6 engine to challenge luxury rivals who offer rear-drive and V-8s, dealers and analysts say. A hybrid gasoline-electric powertrain also could be part of the package.
Acura would not confirm the plan. But at least eight Acura dealers say the division has told them about the 300-hp V-6 with awd. And two analysts, citing conversations with suppliers and people close to the company, support dealer reports that the RL will have a hybrid powertrain.
Such a move would show that American Honda Motor Co. is taking a unique approach - a hybrid geared as much for performance as fuel economy - in a bid to elevate its luxury brand's flagship sedan.
"The next RL will show that Honda continues to think out of the box with powertrains, and that you don't necessarily need a V-8 for luxury cars," says analyst Michael Robinet, vice president of global forecast services for CSM Worldwide in Northville, Mich.
The current RL - with front-wheel drive and a 225-hp, 3.5-liter V-6 - has undersold comparable sedans from import rivals Lexus, BMW and Mercedes-Benz. Most high-end luxury cars in the United States have V-8 engines and rwd.
The 2004 RL begins at $43,725, including destination. The nameplate's U.S. sales peaked at 16,004 in 1997.
Last year, Acura sold 6,829 RLs, down 27.3 percent from 2002. Lexus sold 23,895 LS 430 sedans; BMW sold 46,964 5-series cars; and Mercedes-Benz sold 55,683 E-class models.
A concept of the redesigned 2005 RL will be shown at the New York auto show in April.
In the past, Acura and Honda concept vehicles have closely resembled the production version.
Acura dealers will see the new RL at their annual dealer meeting Aug. 26 in Chicago. "This will be a big step for us," said one dealer, who, like other dealers, didn't want his name used. "A V-8 is not crucial."
Honda Motor Co. Ltd. does not make V-8 engines. All Acura vehicles are fwd, with the exception of the MDX SUV, which has awd, and the NSX premium sports car, which has rwd.
In an October interview with Automotive News, American Honda Executive Vice President Thomas Elliott said the company was near its limit for increasing horsepower on its fwd platform and soon would decide how to increase power for each of its Acura models.
"We're really close to making a decision on a hybrid," he said, adding that the vehicle could be powered by a 300-hp engine in the front plus 100-hp electric motor in the back. He also said the company was considering awd but not rwd.
At this month's Detroit auto show, Honda Motor Co. CEO Takeo Fukui said the company's strategy was to develop cleaner and more fuel-efficient engines that are fun to drive.
He said the company's cylinder deactivation system, which is designed to deliver greater fuel economy with no sacrifice in performance, would be introduced in the United States this fall on the new Honda V-6 Accord hybrid.
The Accord would be the first V-6 model to use the company's hybrid technology and the first hybrid to use the cylinder deactivation system. He said the deactivation system also would be applied to another V-6 model that would be introduced this year, but he would not identify that vehicle.
By KATHY JACKSON AND DALE JEWETT
Automotive News
Acura this fall will equip its flagship RL sedan with all-wheel drive and a 300-hp V-6 engine to challenge luxury rivals who offer rear-drive and V-8s, dealers and analysts say. A hybrid gasoline-electric powertrain also could be part of the package.
Acura would not confirm the plan. But at least eight Acura dealers say the division has told them about the 300-hp V-6 with awd. And two analysts, citing conversations with suppliers and people close to the company, support dealer reports that the RL will have a hybrid powertrain.
Such a move would show that American Honda Motor Co. is taking a unique approach - a hybrid geared as much for performance as fuel economy - in a bid to elevate its luxury brand's flagship sedan.
"The next RL will show that Honda continues to think out of the box with powertrains, and that you don't necessarily need a V-8 for luxury cars," says analyst Michael Robinet, vice president of global forecast services for CSM Worldwide in Northville, Mich.
The current RL - with front-wheel drive and a 225-hp, 3.5-liter V-6 - has undersold comparable sedans from import rivals Lexus, BMW and Mercedes-Benz. Most high-end luxury cars in the United States have V-8 engines and rwd.
The 2004 RL begins at $43,725, including destination. The nameplate's U.S. sales peaked at 16,004 in 1997.
Last year, Acura sold 6,829 RLs, down 27.3 percent from 2002. Lexus sold 23,895 LS 430 sedans; BMW sold 46,964 5-series cars; and Mercedes-Benz sold 55,683 E-class models.
A concept of the redesigned 2005 RL will be shown at the New York auto show in April.
In the past, Acura and Honda concept vehicles have closely resembled the production version.
Acura dealers will see the new RL at their annual dealer meeting Aug. 26 in Chicago. "This will be a big step for us," said one dealer, who, like other dealers, didn't want his name used. "A V-8 is not crucial."
Honda Motor Co. Ltd. does not make V-8 engines. All Acura vehicles are fwd, with the exception of the MDX SUV, which has awd, and the NSX premium sports car, which has rwd.
In an October interview with Automotive News, American Honda Executive Vice President Thomas Elliott said the company was near its limit for increasing horsepower on its fwd platform and soon would decide how to increase power for each of its Acura models.
"We're really close to making a decision on a hybrid," he said, adding that the vehicle could be powered by a 300-hp engine in the front plus 100-hp electric motor in the back. He also said the company was considering awd but not rwd.
At this month's Detroit auto show, Honda Motor Co. CEO Takeo Fukui said the company's strategy was to develop cleaner and more fuel-efficient engines that are fun to drive.
He said the company's cylinder deactivation system, which is designed to deliver greater fuel economy with no sacrifice in performance, would be introduced in the United States this fall on the new Honda V-6 Accord hybrid.
The Accord would be the first V-6 model to use the company's hybrid technology and the first hybrid to use the cylinder deactivation system. He said the deactivation system also would be applied to another V-6 model that would be introduced this year, but he would not identify that vehicle.
01-26-2004, 09:36 AM
#2
Race Director
It sounds to me like they will borrow the AWD from the MDX, which means in reality it will still be a FWD car since normally the power distribution bias is towards the front wheels. This is the opposite of the G35X in which the normal bias is 100% RWD until there's slippage and then the power can be split up to 50/50 front to rear.
With all of the new things being tried on this RL it might be a good idea to wait for the first year kinks to be worked out.
With all of the new things being tried on this RL it might be a good idea to wait for the first year kinks to be worked out.
01-26-2004, 11:15 AM
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IMO, 300 HP V6 + AWD is a solid entry, especially combined with the impressive list of features the RL will surely sport.
However, 400 HP (with the V6 and 100 HP IMA motor) is a class-killer, as it will come close to a 50/50 weight ratio and out-engine everything near its price range. Throw in the standard features, what should be excellent interior and exterior, plus tremendous fuel economy (imagine getting 30 MPG in a 400 HP car!), and I don't see how it can miss. If its driving dynamics even approach a 5-series, it will be a no brainer: hmmm, 225 HP 530i or 400 HP RL for similar money? No contest.
I would definitely be one of those who waits for the 2006 model though - it is a lot of new stuff to be trying out at once.
However, 400 HP (with the V6 and 100 HP IMA motor) is a class-killer, as it will come close to a 50/50 weight ratio and out-engine everything near its price range. Throw in the standard features, what should be excellent interior and exterior, plus tremendous fuel economy (imagine getting 30 MPG in a 400 HP car!), and I don't see how it can miss. If its driving dynamics even approach a 5-series, it will be a no brainer: hmmm, 225 HP 530i or 400 HP RL for similar money? No contest.
I would definitely be one of those who waits for the 2006 model though - it is a lot of new stuff to be trying out at once.
01-26-2004, 11:34 AM
#4
Suzuka Master
I definately agree that it will be seriously interesting once April comes around. I am curious to see what all the auto mags will say once they get to see the production version. Maybe they'll give this company the respect it deserves.
01-26-2004, 12:40 PM
#6
Race Director
I wonder if what's described above is the only choice or what's available. AWD is mostly a marketing ploy. In all of the other cars in its class what percentage of cars that offer it actually sell the AWD version? The new GS will have it, the MB E series has it, the Audi A6 has it the G35 has it and M35 will but in all of those cases I'd venture to guess the ratio of AWD to non AWD is like 1-10. Even on this board I hear cries for an AWD TSX. The great majority of folks (like in the SUV world) don't need or use AWD.
It sounds like with the new RL you won't have a choice . Is the next RL Honda's answer to Subaru? You have to have AWD or nothing. I wonder if with such a strategy the RL will be pinned into an ever smaller niche than it already is?
It sounds like with the new RL you won't have a choice . Is the next RL Honda's answer to Subaru? You have to have AWD or nothing. I wonder if with such a strategy the RL will be pinned into an ever smaller niche than it already is?
01-26-2004, 12:50 PM
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Originally posted by gonova
IMO, 300 HP V6 + AWD is a solid entry, especially combined with the impressive list of features the RL will surely sport.
However, 400 HP (with the V6 and 100 HP IMA motor) is a class-killer, as it will come close to a 50/50 weight ratio and out-engine everything near its price range. Throw in the standard features, what should be excellent interior and exterior, plus tremendous fuel economy (imagine getting 30 MPG in a 400 HP car!), and I don't see how it can miss. If its driving dynamics even approach a 5-series, it will be a no brainer: hmmm, 225 HP 530i or 400 HP RL for similar money? No contest.
I would definitely be one of those who waits for the 2006 model though - it is a lot of new stuff to be trying out at once.
IMO, 300 HP V6 + AWD is a solid entry, especially combined with the impressive list of features the RL will surely sport.
However, 400 HP (with the V6 and 100 HP IMA motor) is a class-killer, as it will come close to a 50/50 weight ratio and out-engine everything near its price range. Throw in the standard features, what should be excellent interior and exterior, plus tremendous fuel economy (imagine getting 30 MPG in a 400 HP car!), and I don't see how it can miss. If its driving dynamics even approach a 5-series, it will be a no brainer: hmmm, 225 HP 530i or 400 HP RL for similar money? No contest.
I would definitely be one of those who waits for the 2006 model though - it is a lot of new stuff to be trying out at once.
Therefore, a performance-oriented hybrid with a 100 hp electric motor should really pack a punch at the stoplight (something our Hondas are not known for).
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01-26-2004, 03:04 PM
#8
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Let's look at it this way. The new Prius uses an electric motor that delivers 67hp and 295 lb-ft of torque at 0-1200rpm. If we assume (I know its not right) that the relationship between horsepower and torque in an electric motor is a linear one, then an RL featuring 2 50hp electric motors would be punching out 440 lb-ft of torque from idle. That's without the 260-270 odd lb-ft a 3.5L V6 with 300hp would be pushing out. Imagine the off the line kick this thing would have!!!!! Who needs a freakin V8 
01-26-2004, 03:13 PM
#9
Suzuka Master
I've been trying to tell people what you're saying for a long time. The IMA system will bring all the torque that no other car in that class could touch. Damn, I'm getting impatient.
01-26-2004, 03:16 PM
#10
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
I think a hybrid RL is wishful thinking, right out of the gate anyway. But I fully expect a 3.8L V6 pushing out over 300HP and at least 275lb-ft with AWD. That in itself will be fairly impressive.
Then again the Accord will have IMA this fall so why not the RL?
But like the LS430 has shown, its not HP and TQ that brings in customers at that level. Its refinement, features, ride and quality. This new RL has to have all the latest toys and technologies to make it a winner. Honda has to bring everything to the table here, they can't hold anything back.
Then again the Accord will have IMA this fall so why not the RL?
But like the LS430 has shown, its not HP and TQ that brings in customers at that level. Its refinement, features, ride and quality. This new RL has to have all the latest toys and technologies to make it a winner. Honda has to bring everything to the table here, they can't hold anything back.
01-26-2004, 03:45 PM
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Originally posted by id888
Therefore, a performance-oriented hybrid with a 100 hp electric motor should really pack a punch at the stoplight (something our Hondas are not known for).
Therefore, a performance-oriented hybrid with a 100 hp electric motor should really pack a punch at the stoplight (something our Hondas are not known for).
01-26-2004, 05:03 PM
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A lot will depend on the power management. I'm not sure if the IMA is designed to kick in with the gasoline engine just because you punch the accelerator. It may kick in only on cruising, to maintain speed without using the gasoline engine, an thus increasing fuel mileage. Thus the total power output at any given time may never reach the full 400 HP. Plus in cornering, it is unclear when IMA will kick in. I think it's all in the software.
My prediction is that there will not be a hybrid RL when launched. Probably after 6-7 months or in the next model year.
My prediction is that there will not be a hybrid RL when launched. Probably after 6-7 months or in the next model year.
01-26-2004, 05:12 PM
#14
Some guy over at vtec says 3.8L with 340hp, AWD and $50,000.00. That's quite a jump from the current RL's 44K price tag.
01-26-2004, 05:28 PM
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actually IMA is only for acceleration not cruising. That's what the cylinder deactivation is for. IMA is recharged by braking so it would run out of juice if used for cruising.
01-27-2004, 08:27 AM
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Originally posted by domn
I think a hybrid RL is wishful thinking, right out of the gate anyway. But I fully expect a 3.8L V6 pushing out over 300HP and at least 275lb-ft with AWD. That in itself will be fairly impressive.
Then again the Accord will have IMA this fall so why not the RL?
But like the LS430 has shown, its not HP and TQ that brings in customers at that level. Its refinement, features, ride and quality. This new RL has to have all the latest toys and technologies to make it a winner. Honda has to bring everything to the table here, they can't hold anything back.
I think a hybrid RL is wishful thinking, right out of the gate anyway. But I fully expect a 3.8L V6 pushing out over 300HP and at least 275lb-ft with AWD. That in itself will be fairly impressive.
Then again the Accord will have IMA this fall so why not the RL?
But like the LS430 has shown, its not HP and TQ that brings in customers at that level. Its refinement, features, ride and quality. This new RL has to have all the latest toys and technologies to make it a winner. Honda has to bring everything to the table here, they can't hold anything back.
01-27-2004, 11:30 AM
#17
Originally posted by gonova
IMO, 300 HP V6 + AWD is a solid entry, especially combined with the impressive list of features the RL will surely sport.
However, 400 HP (with the V6 and 100 HP IMA motor) is a class-killer, as it will come close to a 50/50 weight ratio and out-engine everything near its price range. Throw in the standard features, what should be excellent interior and exterior, plus tremendous fuel economy (imagine getting 30 MPG in a 400 HP car!), and I don't see how it can miss. If its driving dynamics even approach a 5-series, it will be a no brainer: hmmm, 225 HP 530i or 400 HP RL for similar money? No contest.
I would definitely be one of those who waits for the 2006 model though - it is a lot of new stuff to be trying out at once.
IMO, 300 HP V6 + AWD is a solid entry, especially combined with the impressive list of features the RL will surely sport.
However, 400 HP (with the V6 and 100 HP IMA motor) is a class-killer, as it will come close to a 50/50 weight ratio and out-engine everything near its price range. Throw in the standard features, what should be excellent interior and exterior, plus tremendous fuel economy (imagine getting 30 MPG in a 400 HP car!), and I don't see how it can miss. If its driving dynamics even approach a 5-series, it will be a no brainer: hmmm, 225 HP 530i or 400 HP RL for similar money? No contest.
I would definitely be one of those who waits for the 2006 model though - it is a lot of new stuff to be trying out at once.
01-27-2004, 02:48 PM
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Originally posted by phile
Some guy over at vtec says 3.8L with 340hp, AWD and $50,000.00. That's quite a jump from the current RL's 44K price tag.
Some guy over at vtec says 3.8L with 340hp, AWD and $50,000.00. That's quite a jump from the current RL's 44K price tag.
01-27-2004, 03:32 PM
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Originally posted by biker
I wonder if what's described above is the only choice or what's available. AWD is mostly a marketing ploy. In all of the other cars in its class what percentage of cars that offer it actually sell the AWD version? The new GS will have it, the MB E series has it, the Audi A6 has it the G35 has it and M35 will but in all of those cases I'd venture to guess the ratio of AWD to non AWD is like 1-10. Even on this board I hear cries for an AWD TSX. The great majority of folks (like in the SUV world) don't need or use AWD.
It sounds like with the new RL you won't have a choice . Is the next RL Honda's answer to Subaru? You have to have AWD or nothing. I wonder if with such a strategy the RL will be pinned into an ever smaller niche than it already is?
I wonder if what's described above is the only choice or what's available. AWD is mostly a marketing ploy. In all of the other cars in its class what percentage of cars that offer it actually sell the AWD version? The new GS will have it, the MB E series has it, the Audi A6 has it the G35 has it and M35 will but in all of those cases I'd venture to guess the ratio of AWD to non AWD is like 1-10. Even on this board I hear cries for an AWD TSX. The great majority of folks (like in the SUV world) don't need or use AWD.
It sounds like with the new RL you won't have a choice . Is the next RL Honda's answer to Subaru? You have to have AWD or nothing. I wonder if with such a strategy the RL will be pinned into an ever smaller niche than it already is?
http://autocenter.dallasnews.com/sha...wd.d4e2ee.html
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