idk. through experience.. we have had a 2003 TL and now have a 2007 TL.. and my 04 TSX just feels sturdier in build quality and I have had less nitpicky things break.. like the plastic parts, etc. Japanese built cars overall are better quality IMO.

 

"Enter the 2013 Acura ILX, a new compact sedan that hopes to deliver the near-luxury driving experience and bulletproof reliability that Acura buyers have come to expect, at a more reasonable starting price.

The base ILX starts at $26,795, including a destination charge of $895. That buys you a stylish sedan powered by a 2.0-liter, four-cylinder engine good for 150 horsepower and mated to a five-speed automatic transmission. The combination delivers an EPA-estimated 24 mpg city and 35 mpg on the highway."




So the base model has cloth seats, 24mpg city, 150hp and a 5 speed auto for $26k. How can they call this "luxury"!?!?!? Or even "near luxury", this was "near luxury" ~15 years ago - which coincidentally is when this technology and spec sheet sounds like its from. This car will compete great against the others in this segment like the...

 

Yeah, I'm not paying $27K for a car with cloth seats. I could care less really about cloth or leather, but when I'm paying over $30K TTT than it had better have leather and nearly every other "option" as a standard. Once again Honda Motor Co shows it doesn't understand the market. Too conservative, too bland. You can buy a bigger Accord with the 4 cyl with all the same stuff as the ILX apparently but for less money.

 

^ I agree. If they think we'll pay $3K more just because the car has an A instead of an H on the grill, they are mistaken.

 

I just got this tweet from Acura. Its basically a standard Civic with the exception of body panels. They even allude to that fact in the article.

http://life.nationalpost.com/2012/04...013-acura-ilx/

 

^ If they follow through on that, I'm not so concerned about the Civic origins. It should still cost less than an equivalently appointed Accord IMO.

 

I strongly suspect the TSX will continue for a couple of years, not get updated, and disappear. The TSX is built in Japan and carries a cost penalty (conversion from yen to dollars) that is not working for more modest pricing. The ILX is made domestically in Indiana removing that problem. Further, I think the TSX has been positioned as a TL by making the chassis accept a V6 engine. Acura already had a good V6 car - the TL - and didn't need another one. The V6 TSX is pretty expensive $35k+ and has not sold well. The ILX will be an I4 engine car only. Upcoming CAFE/mpg requirements will push the cars to smaller engines anyway.

 

My local dealer said they don't even stock the V6 TSX...since it is so close in price and specs to the TL. But they also said the TSX is a top-selling car for them, and now they have added sales with the Sportwagon.

To me, the ILX is a step down from the TSX in more than one area, but the one that sticks out most is the lack of a double wishbone suspension.

But it is much better differentiated from the Civic than the Canadian CSX was. (That car had the same body and dash...just slightly different lights in front and back.) This car is very different looking, inside and out.

I agree about the lack of leather in the lower model. But the sport model with the 2.4L engine pulled from the TSX and the 6MT, (the only transmission they offer with it) should be a fun car to drive since it will be lighter and thus faster than the TSX...it comes with leather and all the tech goodies, too. I might take a look at that someday if the TSX goes away.

 

Boulder I agree with a lot of what you have to say. Particularly with the ILX being a step down in multiple areas to the TSX and I do like the fact that it is separating itself more from the Civic than with past versions.

I am still scratching my head about the trim levels though. A cloth seated, 150hp, 5sp auto should not be in any NA luxury brands lineup. I think calling Acura a luxury brand is a bit of stretch these days but its even a stretch for me to picture in a "near" luxury brand lineup. As for the 200hp model, it only comes in manual and while that's great for us enthusiasts, NA has proven that it is an automatic car continent. I love that Acura is offering a manual, but making it exclusive seems to odd. What is the car competing with? I imagine Buick as the only other "near" luxury manufacturer and the Verano being the choice. Its hard to do an apples to apples with the two as the trims for the ILX are so odd (imo).

I am struggling to remember the last luxury manufacturer that put together a successful bare bones entry model in the US. The RSX, 318, G20, es250 were all axed due to poor sales as far as I know.

 

+1. I was thinking the same thing. And in addition to not selling well, the low bare bones models diminish the brand and the allure of the upper models. I remember looking at BMW 318's, G20's, Lexus ES250s and shaking my head. They truly looked like economy cars and made you think that the "luxury" nameplate that was associated with it was a sham.

With that said, I think this car actually looks much nicer than a Civic. Like you, I just wish they would give the base model leather, more power and a 6sp auto, (maybe the latter will come next year.)

 

Interesting the different perspectives available. I must differ with the negative comments attached to the car models listed above. Granted, none were an enthusiast's choice, but all were good sellers to a varying degree. The RSX was a very successful model for Acura, and many (including many here) mourned it's demise. And also, many (including me) think that canceling that model to make room for the TSX was the first of many missteps by Honda that have taken place since then. The BMW 318 was a big seller too, though the gradual acceptance of higher gas prices deemed that model superfluous. The G20 was less successful, but again, it was the market's acceptance of higher fuel costs that took the toll on many models geared toward economy (no pun intended). That said, I have read that Infiniti is considering a new smaller model that will see the return of that moniker. The Lexus ES250 was the larger seller (as opposed to the ES300 that was also available) by a wide margin when both models were available.

I may stand alone, but since most new "luxury" car transactions are now rentals (leasing), I'm of the opinion that the high prices attached to the new ILX models ($34,400 for the hybrid with tech?)(plus shipping?)(anyone else puking at that figure?) will only matter if they push the monthly payment up too much. If Honda/Acura can offer some good lease deals, I'll think they'll move every one they can build.

As far as competition goes, I agree that there seems to be no direct cross shopping available. But that was the genius of the TSX in 2004. There was no other car available that offered the TSX's combination of features, performance, economy, and price point (that was dependable anyway). And that's why most of us are driving one.

 

Cloth seats are not a bad choice as an entry option. I would have loved the option of cloth seats in my TSX.

The strange thing I see is that the 2.4L is ONLY available with the 6MT and CANNOT be ordered with the Technology Package. Acura says almost no one buys the 6MT TSX with Navigation...huh?

 

Simba, as far as I know (and a quick google search) the G20, 318ti and the rsx were cancelled due to lagging sales. You may be right about the cancellations coming on due to the market accepting increasing gas prices and subsequently larger cars but you cant ignore that BMW continued selling a 4cyl rwd 318 successfully for many years and the tsx we know sold as 4cyl very well after the demise of the rsx. Its also worth noting that the MB c230 came after the "acceptance" of higher gas prices was canned but MB continued to sell 4cyl c classes with success. Based on this i cant help but lean towards a north american distaste towards econo-luxo cars, perhaps i am biased as this reflects my sentiments. It seems there has always been a place for 4cyl luxo cars here in NA as long as they werent attached to pieces of econo-crap. Of course as gas prices increase the market is more willing to accept 4cyl power. With that in mind the 4cyl power we are getting (as well as the cars they are attached to) in the luxo segment are far superior to the 4cyl cars of the 90's. The new BMW f30 with 4cyl power is incredible, and is an example of a fine "economical" luxury car. The ILX seems to be a page out of the 90's econo-lux car playbook.

Its intersting that you bring up the lease factor and you are right based on current market purchasing stats i am sure a low lease rate will bring sales in. It will be interesting to see if pure low price (should it occur) on a lease can make up for what I think is an outclassed car (i of course have yet to see or drive one).

I am not sure i agree that there was no competition for the tsx in 2004 as well as within its first cycle. BMW, MB, Lexus, and Audi all offered small lux sedans with 4cyl power (lex with a weak 6cyl). The TSX was the only front driver but did directly compete against the similar models. The TSX was competetive within its class with great reliability and pricing (isnt this how the jap lux started taking market share and what hyundai is doing now?) that's why I am driving one. It really is a fantastic DD imo.

Now I just see Acura as the RIM of the automotive world. They're building cars with no direct competition, that are perhaps good in theory but not in practice (is this base or hybrid ilx even good in theory?) and imo are losing brand prestige. The first gen TSX made C&D 10 best how many times within its cycle - I cant honestly tell you if Acura has even made another car that has made the list since. Sad.

 

The preference of cloth seats would make you a minority within the lux car market which I thought is where Acura is supposed to be. Is there even another lux (or near lux) car manufacturer in NA that offers cloth seats in any of its models?

Manual sales, especially in the lux car segment are a small niche in NA.

 

I'm quite sure that you'll see the emergence of more, smaller, near luxury and/or luxury cars (we already have the Mini and the Lexus-Corolla, and I'm sure a few more). The Feds (nee the enviro-Nazis) will force it if market conditions don't (plus, unless there's considerable change this fall, including at the top, in Washington, anyone who thinks they'll see fuel cost relief anytime soon is kidding themselves).

Then (2004), as now, the smaller offerings from BMW, Mercedes, and Audi (and less so Lexus and Infiniti) were considerably more expensive when comparably equipped (I came from Audi) to the TSX, and none offered the reliability factor that Japanese cars did (and do). And because of that cost difference, I've never believed that the TSX shares the same market as those more expensive cars. Some who drive a TSX might like to believe that our cars do share the same market space, but I don't buy it. I'm confident that there's much less cross shopping than we might think so. So, as someone who looked around a lot in 2005 (and again in 2007), I'll stand by my assertion that the TSX had (and to some degree the 4 cyl. still has) little or no direct competition.

I think the ILX looks to be a nice little car. But, as what seems to have emerged as a pattern, Acura/Honda has made a few marketing miscues along with it being priced too highly by a lot.. Cloth interior? 5 speed automatic? (hello 6 speed AT in a $19K Hyundai), etc., etc. I'm afraid that as with the 2nd gen. TSX, Acura missed an opportunity to shine.

 

I have no doubt that we will see smaller luxo cars moving ahead. However just becuase something is smaller and more efficient doesnt mean it has to be less luxo. There are plenty of brands that do small and efficient well. Acura has Honda for that. The lexus corolla and lexus prius are pretty nice on the inside and thats the point. They are maintaing lux status. You want tech and leather you buy the lexus, you want cloth and and a tape deck you go to toyota. How is Acura having a tough time with this? Isnt upmarket the whole function of Acura from Honda. What is upmarket about cloth seats, old mechanicals and as you mentioned, getting outclassed by a much cheaper Hyundai!?!!?

I can only comment for 06 which is when I purchased my TSX. I cross shopped lex 250 and bmw 325 and they were both within less than $2k of my tsx similarly equipped. The tsx was of course the better deal. I had just come from my lexus is350. Reliability may have been a factor against the germans but i wouldnt have put the acura above or below the lexus. The price, power, specs, dimensions of the tsx then lined up within all the "base" lux offerings and it based on that I say it was in that market. There were even quite a few comparo's of the tsx vs those cars.

I agree with your last paragraph completley.

 

BMW offers multiple cloth options in the MINI line. BMW only offers leatherette as a base level in the US, but offers cloth everywhere else. The US 318ti had a cloth base...but BMW always said they couldn't sell hatchbacks, never any complaints about cloth causing sales problems.

On that note, cloth can be superior to leather/vinyl in the more southerly states due to seat temperatures. My Miata has cloth seats and was never burning my legs in the summer...my Z3 fried my legs if I dared to wear shorts.

 

According to this article from last week the TSX and TL will merge into the new TLX. Maybe it is just speculation.

http://wot.motortrend.com/2014-acura...lx-195721.html

 

Mini is not a lux or near lux brand so cloth interiors are nothing out of the ordinary. I've stated from the go that this topic is specific to the NA market. As if BMW would say a seating surface change is what cause them to drop a model from their line up, lets be realistic here. We both know thats not the cause of the 318ti drop. Hatchbacks and cloth seats (and maybe fwd) do not a luxury car make. Its no surprise that no current lux brand in NA offers any of these "features" - well accept for one... If cloth seats weren't the issue I am sure they would still be offering them today no?

I knew this was coming when I saw Texas in your profile. Cloth is not superior, it is more practical for you in the southern states. Its also more practical for people in the north where they freeze in winter. Luxury cars are not about practicality they are about luxury. Cloth is practical (and cheaper) and leather is luxurious/aesthetically pleasing (and more expensive) its that simple. The element has a wash out cabin, how great is that for cleaning! Do I want it in my luxury car? No! Fear not though, your cloth seated "luxury" car is on its way. Deposits being accepted at your local Acura dealer on the ILX!

 

We'll see. Acura applied for the "TLX" copyright several months ago. My hope is that it's simply the TL becoming the TLX. Acura is adding an "X" to every model, (for example, the RL is now to be known as the "RLX" going forward.) With the ILX, RLX, MDX, RDX and TLX, the TSX still fits, both in name and in positioning, as the TSX has outsold the TL so far this year.

 

Sorry Red, but MINI is a "Premium" vehicle...as a look at its pricing will show.

Tell the 5 and 6 GT buyers that hatchbacks aren't luxury...don't forget that the US "idea" of luxury is based upon a different standard than the rest of the world, and that the US standard is now shifting as higher gas prices seem to be here to stay.

As I noted, the 2.4 cannot be had with the technology package (which I want for more than the Navi)...I'm leaning toward the G37 or the IS...but the FR-S and the BRZ are interesting lower cost candidates.

 

I am not sure who considers mini a "premium" car. Is premium the same as luxury? If so then JCW's are in the mid 30's and if you're basing the title of premium solely on price than perhaps that is where your fault lies. A VW golf R goes for the same price. Do you honestly want to tell me that the golf is a premium vehicle?!?!?!? For the record those are both fun as hell to drive, but not premium imo.

DD you're all over the map on me here. Now your comparing the 318ti hatch to a 5gt? Is this a joke? The 5 door 5gt is leaps and bounds above the fwd cloth seated 2 door 318ti. Heck the 318ti was offered without a/c for some models!!!

Simba had already mentioned that the US std of luxury is shifting based on increased fuel costs. I had agreed with him on this statement. But I also mentioned that increased fuel economy from luxury makers is what is expected not decreased luxury. All the S class and 7 series Ive been in overseas may have smaller than NA gas or diesel engines but theyre every bit as luxurious on the inside and out as the models we get. Do higher fuel prices make you want to listen to a cassette through 2 speakers instead of mp3/sat rad/etc. over 8!?!?!? I would assume not, so why then would you suggest and accept lowering lux standards based on increased fuel costs?

 

Kinda off topic, but itsn't the G25 taking the place of the G20? Back on topic: I think the ILX will be a decent seller for Acura, though I wonder if it'll reach the success sales of the TSX (just based off of price). As far as the TSX I dont see it going anywhere within the next 2 years. I wonder if they'll redesign it or just drop it at the end of its cycle? If the TL(X) goes up market, then that'll leave more sales to the ILX. IMO Acura should add a little more value to the ILX. For an entry level brand cloth shouldn't even be offered. Reminds me in a way of the RSX (halogen bulbs).

I'm on the fence with the ILX no doubt it's a good car, but there are others that can match it in terms of value for a lesser price, including power, size, and mpg. It's time for Acura to drop the 5AT and move up to the 6AT for the ILX (seems like that'll come with the earthdreams motors). Back to my point though is that the TSX was and still is the value leader and it's even priced right. You get pretty much everything standard, you just have to decide if you want tech or not. As for people complaining about the ILX based off the civic, what about the TSX based off euro accord and the TL based off the USDM Accord? I don't see it as a big deal at all as long as there's differentiation. 1g/2g TSX along with the 3g TL are some of my favorites from acura. Time will tell with the ILX. At least it isn't like the CSX (which was mentioned earlier) that was simple badge job.

 

Boy did we get off topic; my fault perhaps. It seems we have enough ongoing pissing contests here to add another one. As always, the market will decide.

 

I agree!

 

Yes it will

 

Well I have a 2010 TL and a 2006 TSX the no difference in quality too date..Had both since mile zero...

 

Sorry Red, but I'm pointing out (all over the map) that certain "sure things" (hatchbacks don't sell in the US, the US customers won't pay premium prices for small cars) have been swept aside.

Note that manual sales are actually increasing slightly...just another "sure thing" that might just be false.

On that note, it now seems that Acura/Honda may fold the Tech pkg into the 2.4 ILX.

 

Duck, I went over your last couple of posts and all you have done point out opinion. I am not sure what "sure things" you are talking about. The BMW 5gt hatch has had dismal sales and I believe they are going to stop production for NA. I dont want to continue the pissing contest as I stated previously, but if you have FACTS to prove your point (and subsequently prove me wrong) then please post.

As for the ILX it is the 3rd poorest seller for Acura so far. They are more than 50% under their monthly sales targets. It is only ~3 months into production though so I'll cut them some slack.

 

Fact: MINI (all versions except Clubman) is a hatchback and is a sales success.

Fact: MINI is a "premium" car because it is sold at a higher price point with an emphasis on build quality, interior quality and design, customer target and dealership ammenities. Look at the competitors for the MINI, they are generally several thousand cheaper for similar fitment (noting that it is often impossible to get some of the items you can get in a MINI in lower tier cars). Even the car magazines acknowledge this fact. This is also seen in the inclusion of free service and roadside assistance for several years.

Fact: Sales of manual trasmission cars have jumped to 7% of market, from 3.9%. And manual transmissions are offered in 64% of car models in 2012 vs. 48% ten years ago.

Fact: You conflated the GT's and the 318ti. I simply pointed out that hatches CAN be luxury vehicles, in response to your suggestion that a hatchback can't be a luxury vehicle.

Fact: Cloth is not inferior to leather. Leather provides a more luxury visual impact and is more resistent to spills and such, but so is vinyl. For that matter, most Mercedes start with M-B Tex these days...that ain't leather...and a lot of people prefer it to leather. That doesn't make a M-B with that a non-luxury vehicle. As recently as 2008 you could special order a Lexus or Audi with cloth interior, I haven't checked recently.

Fact: The 5GT was declared dead in the US by the writers over a year ago. It's still for sale.

Question: What are "luxury standards" as you define them?

 

I am not sure how you define sales success, but mini sells ~75k cars a year across their entire range. Perhaps this is their target - I dont actually know. Its a small number as a piece of the entire pie though. For reference Fiat is on pace for 50k units sold a year and with only one model (500).

What are the competition for the mini. The VW golf and GTI models are right there in price point as I indicated earlier but I personally have never thought of them as "premium". Perhaps you do. I haven't experienced the Mini dealerships so I cant comment on that. Who else is competition for them - the Beetle? Fiat 500? Smart? Mini has so many models that its difficult to assign a competitor without knowing which model. Toyota now includes free roadside and maintenance for multiple years = premium?

I think I have lost you on this one. What problem did I have with manual transmission cars? I knew that in NA we hate to row our own gears in general but I had no idea it was this bad. I bet there are more cars with drum brakes being sold than manual trannys.

The 5GT is no doubt a luxury car. I believe my point was that in NA we typically have not had luxury cars that were hatch backs (318ti, clk 230, Integra/RSX, etc). Sales for such cars has also been lack luster.

Cloth is inferior to leather (and sadly vinyl) from a luxury standpoint period. You go on to prove my point with the rest of your own paragraph.

...? Sales are in the toilet no matter who says it or doesnt. FACTS dont lie. The RL is a disaster and has been for years, Acura still wants to sell it. Who am I to complain if someone wants to showcase their errors as the RL and 5GT do everyday for Acura and BMW.

There are Honda CR-V's that cost more than my TSX but I would consider my TSX a luxury car well before I did the CRV. There are Ford 150's that cost more than certain MB,BMW, Audi's but that doesnt make them luxury cars. Making a car the best of its class (as your mini example) doesnt make it premium automatically, nor does its price. Luxury cars typically come from luxury manufacturers. This includes, ownership experience, model line, panache/cache, etc. When they dont, for the most part they are huge failures, even though they may be good cars. The VW Phaeton and Hyundai Equus come to mind, although I really hope the Equus does well, it is a stunner. By that standard lux manufacturers or near lux as the case for Acura cant put out crap and expect to charge lux pricing. The ILX is such a show in my opinion. So far the sales numbers are supporting me, but as I said its still early.

 

^ I think the short summary to the last question a "luxury car" is the combination of a vehicle with premium features provided by a manufacturer who carries a luxury brand image.

If the car or the brand image fall short, I don't think you truly have a luxury car. The Phaeton/Equis are good examples. The cars have the premium components, but they are being sold by manufacturers who do not have a luxury brand image. I'd argue that Lincoln (from 5 years ago) had the brand image but fell short on the offerings.

 

MINI sells about half the volume of Acura, in the US. Given a narrower line, that's a success.

Your refutations are not convincing. MINI is a "premium" vehicle because it commands a price premium over similar cars.

You suggested manual sales are miniscule...I pointed out sales volume is up.

You said hatches don't sell.

You provide no explaination of why cloth is inferior, just YOUR OPINION.

You said 5GT was going to be stopped, I pointed out you are wrong.

You make my point, premium and luxury are different. Lexus was luxury, and is not premium luxury. Acura is luxury, but missed it's chance to be premium luxury.

Definition: "Premium - The amount at which something is valued above its par or nominal value"

MINI is priced higher than the same car from most other manufacturers...it is a premium vehicle. Equus is a luxury vehicle, but will not be premium until people are willing to pay much more for the same because Hyundai have proved it's reliability and endurance over several cycles (like Toyota did with Lexus). Even then, a name change is needed for the brand.

 

You are using mini's numbers and comparing them to Acura and calling them a success. As I illustrated earlier by comparing them to Fiat they are barely outselling Fiat and Fiat only has 1 model. So by that model they are a sales blunder. I also stated that I dont know what their (mini's) targets are. At least when I skew my arguments I give you full disclosure.

Convince me! The top JCW is priced next to a VW R32. Is that a premium car? The bottom line models are priced close to similar bottom line models from competitors. So please educate me as to how they are premium in terms of price vs. competition. To prevent this from going on forever please provide a link to pricing if you can.

Minuscule to describe sales is independent of sales increasing. Manual sales are still very little compared to the entire market. Manual sales are increasing. I bet manual sales in the premium/luxury segment are still tiny, although they may be increasing.

Hatches dont sell. Particularly in the premium/luxury market. Please provide evidence proving otherwise.

How many luxury cars today come with cloth? How many come with leather? This is not opinion this is reality. Statements like these from you make me question spending any further time conversing with you (which I have somewhat enjoyed to date).

5GT is a sales disaster. If it is not stopped it still doesnt prove that hatchbacks sell here in NA, particularly in the luxury segment.

http://www.autoweek.com/article/2011...news/110529913

I see where you are going with the separation of premium from luxury. I had never considered that previously and I do agree with some of those points. The rest of your brief arguments though leave a lot to be desired.

 

Red, quit draging out your strawman.

A MINI, equiped equally to most others in the segment is priced between $3,000 and $7,000 higher. I priced a JCW to match a Golf R, which has alomost 50 more horsepower, and the Golf R is $2000 cheaper with some options you can't get on the MINI. The Fiat is much cheaper than the MINI.

In the US, cloth has generally been replaced by M-B Tex, Leatherette, etc on the entry luxury vehicles. HOWEVER, cloth is orderable on most European brands as a special option. The issue is that very few American buyers will wait for a special order vehicle and the demand for cloth is low (not because it's inferior, but because leather/pleather has become associated with luxury), thus they stick with the pleather. Remember most US luxury vehicles had cloth standard until Lexus put in pleather/leather.

Your link is over a year old...the 5GT is still being sold...their suggestion it's gonna be capped is wrong. Let's look at the X6, that's a hatch too. You are mistaking a small sales figure for failure. Car manufacturers are looking for niche markets to increase sales of models derived, at minimal cost, from other models.

OK, luxury hatches (excluding all the SUV/crossovers that would qualify)...Ferrari FF; BMW 5GTand X6; Audi TT; Lexus CT...that's just off the top of my head.

 

I honestly dont know what "dragging out your strawman" means.

Just visited the vw.com and mini.com websites as you STILL fail to provide any links. Golf R starts for almost $3k more than the JCW. You still havent told me whether the golf qualifies as a premium car by your standard. Regardless this is a dead point for me either way. If you consider a golf of any variant to be a premium car or because a variant of a golf costs $3k more than your premium car (mini).

I never stated that leather is superior to leather only that it is associated with luxury. Which is the whole point of this topic. The ILX with cloth is a joke by any standard; premium or luxury. The Europeans had leather long before Lexus. At least the 7's and s-classes did.

So you have now come around to agree with me that hatchbacks dont sell well here in NA. If you cant beat em - join em. Sugar coat it all you want by stating that they are niche market vehicles (which i dont dispute given your examples). The bottom line is they are low volume cars which is what I have been saying this whole time.

The link I provided may be a year old but it has the CEO of BMW admitting the 5GT is a flop. It also states that they only sold ~25% of what they wanted to sell. Maybe you should inform him that he is wrong and its a niche car.

 

Go to the sites and build the cars equally. The base MINI is stripped compared to other models, that's the only way to get the prices close.

Again you reframe my answers to your bias.

 

I'm disappointed DD. You completely ignored my last post.

No links, no answers to any of my questions, no point.

Lets agree to disagree.

 

i can't believe they might really discontinue the tsx! I'm not a fan of the 2nd gen, but they could have gotten it back on the right track. I think the 1st gen still matches up pretty well to a lot of new cars today